Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[*=Regulator=*]

Well I checked out Kratom online and it's scheduled in Australia. Neither my Dr. or pharmacist had ever heard of it (80 years experience between them) so I'm guessing it's definitely not an OTC pharmacy drug.

The only think I could think of is getting it from a herbal medicine pharmacy but given that it's scheduled, I don't see how they could sell it OTC. Other than that, my options seem to be buying from on OS online drug store and by the time it got here it would probably be redundant - if it arrives on my doorstep in four days it's unlikely I'll want to touch it.

Bummer.

On another front, I spoke to my Dr. about the WD length and asked him to follow up with some Dr's who work in rehab clinics. He's going to do this today (good dude that he is) and talk to me in about an hour. I passed on all the BLers concerns that the 'real' WD symptoms might not have started yet and he was good enough to accept that I might know more than him (that's got to be a first for a Dr. :D) so will humour me by speaking to someone with more experience.

Seriously, this Dr. is amazing in the lengths he'll go through to help me. He's not charging me (we call that bulk billing in Australia), letting me dictate most of my medications to him, is accepting of the fact that I may know more about certian topics than him and has told me I can call his cell any time of the day or night 24/7. Thank god I found this dude. The last guy I had would just constantly say 'you have a good job and you're making good money so just stay on the Sub', even when I asked him about tapering off. He was more of a drug dealer than a Dr.

As for my progress, I've actually been out and about doing errands for the past 5 hours which objectively, has to be a sign of some imrpovement. The last couple of days I couldn't get out of bed. I did have a pretty bad bout of nausea when driving home but didn't through away and went away as soon as I smoked some weed. Still not saying you guys are wrong that the worst is to come but it definitely feels like I've been through some sort of peak.

Will update late tonight / early tomorrow

 

[JamtasticX]

Well I checked out Kratom online and it's scheduled in Australia. Neither my Dr. or pharmacist had ever heard of it (80 years experience between them) so I'm guessing it's definitely not an OTC pharmacy drug.

The only think I could think of is getting it from a herbal medecine pharmacy but given that it's scheduled, I don't see how they good sell it OTC. Other than that, my options seem to be buying from on OS online drug store and by the time it got here it would probably be redundant - if it arrives on my doorstep in four days it's unlikely I'll want to touch it.

Bummer.

On another front, I spoke to my Dr. about the WD length and asked him to follow up with some Dr's who work in rehab clinics. He's going to do this today (good dude that he is) and talk to me in about an hour. I passed on all the BLers concerns that the 'real' WD symptoms might not have started yet and he was good enough to accept that I might know more than him (that's got to be a first for a Dr. :D) so will humour me by speaking to someone with more experience.

Seriously, this Dr. is amazing in the lengths he'll go through to help me. He's not charging me (we call that bulk billing in Australia), letting me dictate most of my medications to him, is accepting of the fact that I may know more about certian topics than him and has told me I can call his cell any time of the day or night 24/7. Thank god I found this dude. The last guy I had would just constantly say 'you have a good job and you're making good money so just stay on the Sub', even when I asked him about tapering off. He was more of a drug dealer than a Dr.

As for my progress, I've actually been out and about doing errands for the past 5 hours which objectively, has to be a sign of some imrpovement. The last couple of days I couldn't get out of bed. I did have a pretty bad bout of nausea when driving home but didn't through away and went away as soon as I smoked some weed. Still not saying you guys are wrong that the worst is to come but it definitely feels like I've been through some sort of peak.

Will update late tonight / early tomorrow

You're pretty lucky to have that Dr. My Dr is straight crazy, theres tons of crazy reports about him online. However, he gives me kpins and suboxone, and I pretty much don't complain. I don't dare mention lowering my dose, I go in, nod my head, and try to get out as soon as possible with as little talking as I can possibly get away with. If my insurance changes I won't be seeing him, so whatever, I'll stay on and not say anything for as long as I have to, then be gone.

But he really is crazy....

Random question?
Does anyone who sniffs suboxone notice that it gets really fluffy in contrast to moisture. Breaking up and sniffing a 2mg pill changes in volume by quite a bit, and I tend to notice it likes to absorb a lot of water and puff up

 

[Comrade Kane]

Hmm, well if bupe and antideps affect different chem systems, then I guess the good effects I get are from the effects of both the bups and escitalopram combined.

I read this somewhere on a health site: "There have been efforts to develop antidepressant medications that work through the endorphin system, but so far those efforts have not been successful."

But then the U.S. National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health
said that anti-deps DO affect the brains (endogenous) opiate/endorphin system. Specifically in scientific studies of escitalopram:
"Interaction between serotonin 5-HT1A receptors and beta-endorphins modulates antidepressant response."
"OBJECTIVES: To assess interaction abnormalities between 5-HT1A receptors and the endogenous opioid system in patients with major depression and the possible modulating effect of citalopram."
"CONCLUSIONS: Changes in interaction between 5-HT1A receptor system and the endogenous opioid system may play a role both in the mechanism of action and response to antidepressant drugs."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18725263

So I dunno, its a fairly complex subject, but there does seem to be some evidence that the pathways that anti-deps use does affect the same pathways used by opiates in the brain.

I will definately try to get tramadol from my doctor, based on what some of the above commenters have said about it. Has anyone from Australia obtained tramadol?

 

[JamtasticX]

Hmm, well if bupe and antideps affect different chem systems, then I guess the good effects I get are from the effects of both the bups and escitalopram combined.

I read this somewhere on a health site: "There have been efforts to develop antidepressant medications that work through the endorphin system, but so far those efforts have not been successful."

But then the U.S. National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health
said that anti-deps DO affect the brains (endogenous) opiate/endorphin system. Specifically in scientific studies of escitalopram:
"Interaction between serotonin 5-HT1A receptors and beta-endorphins modulates antidepressant response."
"OBJECTIVES: To assess interaction abnormalities between 5-HT1A receptors and the endogenous opioid system in patients with major depression and the possible modulating effect of citalopram."
"CONCLUSIONS: Changes in interaction between 5-HT1A receptor system and the endogenous opioid system may play a role both in the mechanism of action and response to antidepressant drugs."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18725263

So I dunno, its a fairly complex subject, but there does seem to be some evidence that the pathways that anti-deps use does affect the same pathways used by opiates in the brain.

I will definately try to get tramadol from my doctor, based on what some of the above commenters have said about it. Has anyone from Australia obtained tramadol?

interesting, however it's studying beta-endorphin in plasma levels, which can't easily cross the BBB. Also, bupe most likely has a stronger affinity than beta-endorphins, although I can't find any evidence to directly back that up. Regardless, interesting how 5-hita may cause this phenomenon

 

[Pegasus]

Well I checked out Kratom online and it's scheduled in Australia. Neither my Dr. or pharmacist had ever heard of it (80 years experience between them) so I'm guessing it's definitely not an OTC pharmacy drug.

The only think I could think of is getting it from a herbal medicine pharmacy but given that it's scheduled, I don't see how they could sell it OTC. Other than that, my options seem to be buying from on OS online drug store and by the time it got here it would probably be redundant - if it arrives on my doorstep in four days it's unlikely I'll want to touch it.

Bummer.

On another front, I spoke to my Dr. about the WD length and asked him to follow up with some Dr's who work in rehab clinics. He's going to do this today (good dude that he is) and talk to me in about an hour. I passed on all the BLers concerns that the 'real' WD symptoms might not have started yet and he was good enough to accept that I might know more than him (that's got to be a first for a Dr. :D) so will humour me by speaking to someone with more experience.

Seriously, this Dr. is amazing in the lengths he'll go through to help me. He's not charging me (we call that bulk billing in Australia), letting me dictate most of my medications to him, is accepting of the fact that I may know more about certian topics than him and has told me I can call his cell any time of the day or night 24/7. Thank god I found this dude. The last guy I had would just constantly say 'you have a good job and you're making good money so just stay on the Sub', even when I asked him about tapering off. He was more of a drug dealer than a Dr.

As for my progress, I've actually been out and about doing errands for the past 5 hours which objectively, has to be a sign of some imrpovement. The last couple of days I couldn't get out of bed. I did have a pretty bad bout of nausea when driving home but didn't through away and went away as soon as I smoked some weed. Still not saying you guys are wrong that the worst is to come but it definitely feels like I've been through some sort of peak.

Will update late tonight / early tomorrow

Kratom is illegal in Australia, but you guys have DHC and codeine if you need... Both of those are very helpful as well...

Sounds like you're doing alright... good luck!

 

[catcalls]

I feel shitty. Like I'm a big loser for not being able to handle dropping to 3.2mg when all you guys are at 1mg or less. But, in my defence, my stomach started hurting like a MF when I got reduced to 3.6mg, and the pain just increased at 3.2mg. So, now that I am back at 4mg, the pain is gone away! I feel great too.

I did a silly thing this morning though. I started salivating like crazy and swallowed a large portion of my Subutex. I feel O.K. right now, but tomorrow morning might be tough?

I'll see, just wait and see I guess.

Last night I had bad toothache, an impacted wisdom, so I took 10mg of Melatonin. That freaked my head out. I thought I was going to die. But, it stopped the pain, and got me off to sleep nicely. Curious to know why it stopped the pain?

 

[JamtasticX]

I feel shitty. Like I'm a big loser for not being able to handle dropping to 3.2mg when all you guys are at 1mg or less. But, in my defence, my stomach started hurting like a MF when I got reduced to 3.6mg, and the pain just increased at 3.2mg. So, now that I am back at 4mg, the pain is gone away! I feel great too.

I did a silly thing this morning though. I started salivating like crazy and swallowed a large portion of my Subutex. I feel O.K. right now, but tomorrow morning might be tough?

I'll see, just wait and see I guess.

Last night I had bad toothache, an impacted wisdom, so I took 10mg of Melatonin. That freaked my head out. I thought I was going to die. But, it stopped the pain, and got me off to sleep nicely. Curious to know why it stopped the pain?

Is your stomach pain from something else, or do you think its from lowering the dose of sub? It seems unlikely that a drop from 3.6 to 3.2 causes a ton of pain, but 4mg relieves it, and can't help but think a lot of it is in your head and placebo..

 

[Jabberwocky]

Well my doctor just switched me from generic Subutex to Suboxone film strip.

I told him I got nausea on the old one -- but he switched anyways!

 

[SkagKush]

lets hope this mornings 1mg gets me through court.................

i have ibs, and i get alot of stomach pain that is not related to drug abuse.....although i do smoke medicinal cannabis for it.....

 

[JamtasticX]

Well my doctor just switched me from generic Subutex to Suboxone film strip.

I told him I got nausea on the old one -- but he switched anyways!

Did it really give you nausea? Because the naloxone is pretty much pointless in suboxone and doesn't really do anything

 

[Suboxone]

Did it really give you nausea? Because the naloxone is pretty much pointless in suboxone and doesn't really do anything

I get headaches and sweat uncontrollably from naloxone, on Subutex I felt great and saved a bunch of money too

As for my current state, it's day 4 with no Subutex. No withdrawal symptoms present whatsoever.

 

[JamtasticX]

I get headaches and sweat uncontrollably from naloxone, on Subutex I felt great and saved a bunch of money too

As for my current state, it's day 4 with no Subutex. No withdrawal symptoms present whatsoever.

Do you mean 4 days of using suboxone instead of subutex? Or 4 days w/o any bupe?

It's good if it's w/o any bupe, just remember sometimes the w/ds can be sneaky and come a few days after stopping.

___
I took 2mg of sub sometime yesterday, and 2mg today and I'm surprisingly nodding pretty hard, and falling asleep. Doesn't happen all the time, but every once in a while i get that odd random jam

 

[SkagKush]

^ this is true......be prepared

bupe WD does not start until about the 4th day........

 

[Suboxone]

Do you mean 4 days of using suboxone instead of subutex? Or 4 days w/o any bupe?

It's good if it's w/o any bupe, just remember sometimes the w/ds can be sneaky and come a few days after stopping.

___
I took 2mg of sub sometime yesterday, and 2mg today and I'm surprisingly nodding pretty hard, and falling asleep. Doesn't happen all the time, but every once in a while i get that odd random jam

I'm in day 4 of no bupe, nothing except the watery eyes I've had since day 2. Other than that, I feel fine. Will update if it gets any worse... thanks for the info!

 

[SkagKush]

somewhat bad news....was starting to feel ill since about noon...maybe i got a small 1mg.....

but i decided to dose another small 1mg, hoping this doesnt set me back.... shouldn't overly.....

 

[Suboxone]

somewhat bad news....was starting to feel ill since about noon...maybe i got a small 1mg.....

but i decided to dose another small 1mg, hoping this doesnt set me back.... shouldn't overly.....

what taper were you on? how many days without it?

 

[*=Regulator=*]

^ this is true......be prepared

bupe WD does not start until about the 4th day........

Yeah, I think you might be right on that count. I was very optimistic that I'd managed to get through the worst of it but I just spent half an hour puking this morning - that's the first time I've thrown up since stepping off at 1mg. Nothing much else is different and some weed got rid of the naseua but the fact that I'm puking period tells me that it's worse - unless it was related to the sandwhich I ate last night and few shots of scotch which was the first thing other than bananas I've eaten for five days.

Medical wisdom is that the half life of Sub is between 20 and 36 hours so I drew up this awesome spreadsheet, picking 30 hours as my half life because I don't think I have particularly high metabolism:

(except it should start of HL0, not HL1)

According to that thing I'm nearly at HL5 or 6 days since stepping off.

Fuck it, I figure if I'm either in or about to be in full blow WD I may as just let it ride out now. I should be well over the peak by the end of the weekend.

 

[JamtasticX]

Yeah, I think you might be right on that count. I was very optimistic that I'd managed to get through the worst of it but I just spent half an hour puking this morning - that's the first time I've thrown up since stepping off at 1mg. Nothing much else is different and some weed got rid of the naseua but the fact that I'm puking period tells me that it's worse - unless it was related to the sandwhich I ate last night and few shots of scotch which was the first thing other than bananas I've eaten for five days.

Medical wisdom is that the half life of Sub is between 20 and 36 hours so I drew up this awesome spreadsheet, picking 30 hours as my half life because I don't think I have particularly high metabolism:

NSFW:

(except it should start of HL0, not HL1)

According to that thing I'm nearly at HL5 or 6 days since stepping off.

Fuck it, I figure if I'm either in or about to be in full blow WD I may as just let it ride out now. I should be well over the peak by the end of the weekend.

The thing to remember is that there is a ton of other spread sheets all +30 from the one before them.

So if you took 1mg at +0, then 1mg at +30 you would have 1.5 in your system. In your graph you're only counting 1 time, 1 day of usage. Your levels would actually be slightly higher as the half lifes of all the other dosages would be slightly off from that half life of the one in the chart.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Is there anyone out there who was on BMT long-term who has made a successful withdrawal from the drug and has been off of it for 2+ months and feels great?

What is the psychological addiction like after the physical symptoms stop? I imagine as long as something else filled the time -- exercise, etc -- all would be well...?

 

[*=Regulator=*]

The thing to remember is that there is a ton of other spread sheets all +30 from the one before them.

So if you took 1mg at +0, then 1mg at +30 you would have 1.5 in your system. In your graph you're only counting 1 time, 1 day of usage. Your levels would actually be slightly higher as the half lifes of all the other dosages would be slightly off from that half life of the one in the chart.

Yeah, excellent point JaxtasticX. I'm counting HL0 as 100% of whatever the amount of Suboxone left in my body at that time. Obviously the more you Sub have in you at HL0, the worst the WDs are going to be. I think my point is that by about HL4 (stupidly labelled as HL5 in my spreadsheet), the amount in your system has dropped by just less than 94%. That's where I'm at.

My last taper was 5 days of 1mg so I should have 100% removed at least 3 of those earlier doses from my system.

So, progress: after my vomit session this morning I took my usual cocktail (lope, clonodine, valium, weed) and went back to sleep for about 4 hours. Have woken up feeling quite a lot better than I did this morning but still feel like a zombie (most likely due to the clonodine).

If the WDs haven't peaked yet, they should hopefully do so by tomorrow or the day after. What's another two days of pain? Once I feel like I'm on the way back up, I think I'll get another massive burst of resilience to see this through.

somewhat bad news....was starting to feel ill since about noon...maybe i got a small 1mg.....

but i decided to dose another small 1mg, hoping this doesnt set me back.... shouldn't overly.....

Keep it up man. It's pretty easy to keep taking that extra 1mg which will just prolong the inevitable. I found that really sticking to my taper plan gave me some strange sort of pride and belief I'd make it to the end. You've made it most of the way, just the ultra-low doses and you're there!

Peace