What Ayahuasca is and isn't!

[skatardude10]

I do appreciate this post. Teo seems to do his research, and when it comes to the definition of Ayahuasca as the natives who discovered the brew know it and use it... He's probably spot on. Thanks for that.

The other definition of Ayahuasca that most of us use in a less ritual, more westernized "active-constituency" context doesn't take into account the interaction with plant spirits, other unknown factors such as unknown alkaloids or who knows. Im sure there is more to the preparation than simply DMT and Harmala...

Reading around, it seems Syrian Rue and Cappi have the same active ingredients but when smoking the two, or ingesting the two, they have many distinct characteristics that make them unique from eachother. Wether that means one is enchanted with a totally different spirit maybe, or other compounds that affect the experience...

Either way, I guess if you are making Ayahuasca with Syrian Rue and Mimosa like many of us do, just know that Yes it may contain the two main known and identified active ingredients DMT and Harmalas and have roughly the same effects, but that at the same time is not taking into account any other factors that makes the real native amazonian Ayahuasca.

If you are a purist, want the most genuine experience you can have you know what to do, if you don't care about plant spirits or anything else and just want an easy way, or your own way that's okay too... But how I see it there are two types of Ayahuasca people are making. 1: Makeshift Aya and 2: As genuine as it can be Aya... And the merits and pitfalls of each?

 

[nomis]

OP seems to think he knows everything in a lot of his posts and acts that his information is better than others', that elitist attitude kind of bothers me.

Yeah.....the manner in which they deliver makes me feel the need to disregard what content they have to offer.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

But maybe either Teo or anyone can answer a question or two. I notice above that Ilex guayusa or Uncaria tomentosa may or may not be included in the mixture. But as far as MAOI inhibitors in the caapi, wouldn't the caffeine in Ilex guayusa or the rhynchophylline in Uncaria tomentosa be contraindicated in such a mixture to be ingested?

Interesting point, but no, they do not seem to interact and are very frequently used together.

What gives you the authority to make a post and tell people EXACTLY what Ayahuasca is and what it's not? Are you a South American shaman?

It's just fact, simple as that. No I am not a South American shaman, but I did go to Peru and I did ask them... I just relayed what they told me, but I didn't need to do that to know this, it's in all sorts of books, literature, etc.

I do appreciate this post. Teo seems to do his research, and when it comes to the definition of Ayahuasca as the natives who discovered the brew know it and use it... He's probably spot on. Thanks for that.

Thank you, I did do the research and this IS what the word Ayahuasca means when you talk to the the shamans, the natives and scientist, they ONLY people who seem to think Ayahuasca means other things are those in the drug/psychedelic community.

 

[Propyl Power]

I agree that an 'ayahuasca' brew must contain B. Caapi as it's main constituent, but do not agree that the presence of non-amazonian plants inherently disqualifies a brew from that title...

For example, a brew with standard concentrations of caapi & p. viridis, plus perhaps some rhodiola, or reishi mushroom, a dash of phalaris, even a bit of mandrake, or other non-amazonian-native admixture plants, is for me, still very much ayahuasca - all variations on a theme... aya is all about building relationships between people and plants, and she does not restrict herself only to those from her neighborhood!

maybe from an anthropological perspective, 'ayahuasca' is limited to its manifestation in its native, historical context... but from an applied perspective, it extends much further...

However caapi + another significant entheogen, such as salvia, mushrooms, or iboga, would be substantially different enough to require an alternate name.

I don't think mimosa + rue should be referred to as 'ayahuasca'. The word 'ayahuasca' itself refers specifically to the caapi vine, translating roughly as 'vine (huasca) of souls/spirits/the dead (aya)'. Beyond that, I have not read anything anywhere which suggests that aya/psychotria and mimosa/rue are identical, equivalent, or interchangeable in any way, and my own experience supports this. Both can be very strong indeed, but are generally agreed to be qualitatively distinct.

 

[Volundr]

As a fellow pedant I can see your point Teo, but I think people just feel that you're 'posting style' is far too aggressive and condescending. Yeah people may have their own takes on what Ayahuasca is, and yes quite often it isn't its exact meaning but that doesn't mean it is necessary to attack people that are either ignorant to its actual meaning or choose to call their own take Ayahuasca. Yes people can be wrong, but they're not being dangerously wrong or disrespectfully wrong so it seems meaningless to assert your knowledge with such venom.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your postings, I find entheogens very interesting and I am always open to posts that help me expand that area of knowledge it's just elitist, I'm right, you're wrong postings that lead to offense being taken and subsequently bannings are pretty counter-productive in the sense that if you're banned you can't share your knowledge!

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

As a fellow pedant I can see your point Teo, but I think people just feel that you're 'posting style' is far too aggressive and condescending.

don't care.

Yeah people may have their own takes on what Ayahuasca is, and yes quite often it isn't its exact meaning but that doesn't mean it is necessary to attack people that are either ignorant to its actual meaning or choose to call their own take Ayahuasca.

People could have their own take on what a zebra is... but a zebra is still a zebra and if you talk to a scientist or an African tribes man they are going to correct you if you simply label it a horse.

They're gonna tell you that your close... but a zebra is a specific type of horse.

I agree that an 'ayahuasca' brew must contain B. Caapi as it's main constituent, but do not agree that the presence of non-amazonian plants inherently disqualifies a brew from that title...

For example, a brew with standard concentrations of caapi & p. viridis, plus perhaps some rhodiola, or reishi mushroom, a dash of phalaris, even a bit of mandrake, or other non-amazonian-native admixture plants, is for me, still very much ayahuasca - all variations on a theme... aya is all about building relationships between people and plants, and she does not restrict herself only to those from her neighborhood!

maybe from an anthropological perspective, 'ayahuasca' is limited to its manifestation in its native, historical context... but from from an applied perspective, it extends much further...

However caapi + another significant entheogen, such as salvia, mushrooms, or iboga, would probably be substantially different enough to require an alternate name.

I don't think mimosa + rue should be referred to as 'ayahuasca'. The word 'ayahuasca' itself refers specifically to the caapi vine, translating roughly as 'vine (huasca) of souls/spirits/the dead (aya)'. Beyond that, I have not read anything anywhere which suggests that aya/psychotria and mimosa/rue are identical, equivalent, or interchangeable in any way, and my own experience supports this. Both can be very strong indeed, but are generally agreed to be qualitatively distinct.

A fair statement, good post.

 

[Student]

This video contains info describing more accurately what "ayahuasca" is from a person who is very credible, and a lot of other cool info too. Ott's the man


http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=psychonautchannel#p/u/8/h8Nty8ziAI4

(there are 5 parts)

and btw why no mention of how common tobacco and coca leaf is in the brew Teo? far more essential and commonly used ingredients than cats claw and guayusa

The word ayahuasca comes from a language that originates in places where there is no known long term history of ayahuasca use anyway its just the standard term in the western man's lexicon.

 

[Volundr]

People could have their own take on what a zebra is... but a zebra is still a zebra and if you talk to a scientist or an African tribes man they are going to correct you if you simply label it a horse.

They're gonna tell you that your close... but a zebra is a specific type of horse.

Yes but it's far more pedantic than that. It's like me calling a DVD a CD, if i were to say that, people would know what I mean, I would know what I mean, chances are I know what a DVD is but CD is an "easier" term to use* and no harm comes of it.

*Yes, CD/DVD is an example, obviously DVD is just as easy to say as CD



What I am trying to say is that you're being a cunt in the way you are to others, regardless of your factual knowledge you clearly want to share/show off, and have yet to provide any reasoning behind it.

 

[Student]

love the avatar volundr, mifune is such a badass!

I am trying to say though that Teo's information isnt very accurate, his description is ethnocentric and short sighted.

 

[TheAppleCore]

People could have their own take on what a zebra is... but a zebra is still a zebra and if you talk to a scientist or an African tribes man they are going to correct you if you simply label it a horse.

Sure. Aya is aya as zebra is zebra, but what makes you think that people are going to trust a definition provided by an anonymous Bluelight member, providing absolutely no trusted sources for the "information"?

Would you expect people to trust you if you joined a zoology forum and made a thread defining the word "zebra" with absolutely no indication that you had been educated in the field of zoology, and no references to sources for your definition?


Words are used to communicate a concept. Because of this, the "correct" definition of a word is the concept that is currently most generally associated with the word. This way, if your understanding of a word is the "correct" one, you will have a mutual understanding with most other people, and you can both use the word to share ideas.

That makes tribal definitions of "ayahuasca" actually totally irrelevant, in modern Western culture, which constitutes websites like Bluelight. So, how do you figure out how most people in modern Western culture understand the word "ayahuasca"? You look at the consensus of a site like the DMT-Nexus, filled with lots of our cultural peers who are talking about ayahuasca.

Hey, look! The DMT-Nexus has a wiki project, where its members can collectively provide information and define terms such as... Ayahuasca!


And that, ladies and gents, is the definition of ayahuasca.

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

The word ayahuasca comes from a language that originates in places where there is no known long term history of ayahuasca use anyway its just the standard term in the western man's lexicon.

Um... no? It's a Quechua word and comes from a place where it has been used for 1000s of years.

Hey, look! The DMT-Nexus has a wiki project, where its members can collectively provide information and define terms such as... Ayahuasca!

Fuck the Nexus, they wouldn't know about half the plant drugs if I had never told them.

 

[LSDMDMA&AMP]

teo
do you ever have anythign good to say
about anything
but yourself?
srsly
GTFO

 

[atara]

Everyone replying to Teotzlcoatl: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAUTXrF5_jQ

 

[Teotzlcoatl]

haha, alright, we had some good debate, I hope we can continue it.

and btw why no mention of how common tobacco and coca leaf is in the brew Teo? far more essential and commonly used ingredients than cats claw and guayusa

Nice point, but those are both Amazonion River Basin plants, thus they would be included in this- "Ayahuasca may or may not contain Ilex guayusa, Uncaria tomentosa or other traditional additives.
Ayahuasca may or may not contain other botanicals, herbs and plants from the Amazon River Basin"

 

[Captain.Heroin]

As far as I'm aware MAOI potentiation in psychedelics only exists with tryptamines, of course I could be wrong but I know mushrooms among other things are potentiated by the addition of an MAOI.

MAOI's also potentiate nicotine, and cause it to be highly addictive (nicotine, on its own, is not all that addictive as cigarettes are).

 

[nopipesdfw]

teo
do you ever have anythign good to say
about anything
but yourself?
srsly
GTFO

It's funny, I used to think he was nuts for thinking he was contacting God with plants.

Oddly enough, I now believe in what he was talking about in a more practical context, but not it's seemingly apparent that his meaningful experiences with ethnobotanicals only serve... well.... ethnobotanicals and his ego merged into one when we're speaking of a day to day basis.

 

[swilow]

Ayahuasca is actually just banisteriopsis caapi (vine of souls/dead). According to the native users...But, I'm not, so I find I can call any MAOi potentiated DMT brew/capsule/balloon ayahuasca.

I find this Teo guy both amusing and, overall, redundant. What he "teaches" us is actually very often common knowledge.

Teo, you would be surprised that a lot of what you say here is really, really basic knowledge. But yeah, thanks for the pointless thread

Fuck the Nexus, they wouldn't know about half the plant drugs if I had never told them.

Ha, right....:D

 

[Volundr]

MAOI's also potentiate nicotine, and cause it to be highly addictive (nicotine, on its own, is not all that addictive as cigarettes are).

Emphasis on me only mentioning MAOI potentiation in psychedelics, and I do not count tobacco as a psychedelic

 

[Student]

Um... no? It's a Quechua word and comes from a place where it has been used for 1000s of years.

Did you check out the video I linked? Its not my opinion, it is information that has been found through the research of Jonathan Ott. I'm sorry but i think Mr. Ott is a decent amount more credible than you.

Indeed the word is Quechua but that languages comes from the andes, where there is no caapi plant and no known tradition of using the brew. In fact the word only goes back about 200 years and more likely refered to coca or tobacco originally. The term ayahuasca is only used by westerners and a portion of the native ayahuasca drinking populations.

Caapi is mixed into many medicines in south america; that doesn't make them ayahuascas, however ayahuasca is the word for the caapi plant so eating or drinking ayahuasca (caapi) is infact eating or drinking ayahuasca (caapi) nothing more or less. True there is the a beverage the ayahuasca plant is used for, lets call it Yage and often additional plants, particularly tobacco and/or P. Viridis are added among many other things.

 

[nomis]

So jsut what would you call a brew whose primary ingredients were MHWB and Syrian Rue?