• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio

How toxic is Mephedrone?

after a 13 month near daily use my heart constantly feels not quite right, sometimes cigarettes cause palpitations etc....

I had a stupid meph habit and boy now I’m feeling it.

The head zaps have stopped but I still wake up stinking of the stuff (this is a good 4 months after cessation) and although I had an awful dip of depression (resulting in suicide attempts and inpatient psychiatric treatment) my mood is far more stable and I don’t experience dips as often.

If someone was using 8-20 grams per binge and binging 3 times a week for 13 months, is there any supplements or substances that could be used to manage the long term effects or anything that could rid the body of it quicker?

I know I often say this, but it is true and good advice, you should start exercising. It promotes healing and the ridding of toxins from the body. It also just makes you feel good and sleep well. Obviously a healthy diet, plenty of sleep and cutting out all drug use are the other good pieces of advice. Yes there's 5-htp and l-tyrosine, but I'd try to go for eating plenty of protein and vitamin rich foods rather than more chemicals. Boost your neurotransmitters and overall health via...A healthy lifestyle...

PS - Levvytation - that's practically my story in a nut-shell, caused a serious reaction off 150mg given to a friend, not as serious as yours but he was way more fucked than he should have been. I really messed myself up with Mephedrone, but it's been since early May so nearly 3 full months that I haven't had even a line, and I've done my best to avoid all other drugs (though...not entirely well I will add), and I've really focused on exercise and healthy eating/sleeping and I find I'm all but recovered. Turned me off Cocaine and stims in general too oddly enough, I find I get very little euphoria and just feel 'stimulated' rather than 'FUCKING FANTASTIC' on them all now. Nicotine gives me an adrenergic feeling reaction, I really gotta quit those...
 
Exercise is good advice, Ive been doing that more since I quit using drugs recreationally or regularly (alright I have relapsed slightly for a bit but overall its almost negligable), but the other thing that was vital to me getting back on a healthy body weight is not doing uppers and downers anymore. They fuck with your appetite and sleep rhythm and they definitely dont help for a natural life structure because they give you an artificial one.

But many of you probably know that, its good for others to hear though because its just you know, true story for the last months :)

On-topic: sorry to disappoint anyone who would think there would actually be substantial on-topic information but 35 pages of 'we basically dont really know but have a pretty good guess!'... we will just have to wait on proper toxicity experiments if shit really hits the fan and - unfortunately - statistics over time to see how much damage it does.

I have no idea either what it would take for endorsed and funded tests to be conducted. Why the hell don't governments like that of UK fund it?
 
Ive been browsing this site for some time, but I have never bothered to post before. I stumbled across something today though. A post in DF allegedly from a vendor who claimed the yellow tint in some batches is a result of a Br2 impurity, which they rinse with NaSO4 to remove it. The vendor was claiming that many companies skip this step to save money, and also that even if they do, some of the rinsing agent is left behind.

Now normally I dont believe anything a vendor says, but it got me thinking. I checked out the synthesis of mephedrone and sure enough it utilizes nucleophilic substitution, producing Br2 as a major impurity (approximately a 1:2 molar ratio). This is not uncommon in organic chemistry, but combining several factors, among them: the large dose and frequency people consume (compared to other RCs that may contain this impurity), the lax manufacturing and profit maximization processes of Chinese companies, its unprecedented addictiveness and fiendishness, and no check on quality.
While everyone claims that purity is 99.7%, from experience working in a legitimate chem lab I know that this is highly unlikely and would likely involve several purification steps, many of them rather sophisticated. So if Br2 were present at even 0.1% (remember its produced at a 1:2 molar ratio, so this is rather conservative and represents pulling off the vast majority with an appropirate solvent), and has a half-life of 9-12 days, and someone were to use more than a gram a week, your exposure is rather significant. If you were to report Br2 as an impurity on an FDA approve drug, it might even pass muster at 0.1%, but thats assuming a dose of a few mg's, and they'd probably tell you to go back and clean it up anyway. A similar analogy can come from Tuna maybe. Tuna isn't bad for you, its probably even good for you. But if you eat it every day, youll probably end up with lead poisioning eventually.

(as a note to clarify: Br- and many Bromine containing molecules are acceptable in the body, while Br2 is pretty toxic. By pretty I mean highly.)

The interesting part comes from looking at the symptoms of actue Br2 poisioning:

TOXICITY
BROMINE:
TOXICITY DATA: 1000 ppm inhalation-human LCLo; 750 ppm/9 minutes
inhalation-mouse LC50; 2700 mg/m3 inhalation-rat LC50; 180 ppm/6.5 hours
inhalation-rabbit LCLo; 14 mg/kg oral-human LDLo; 2600 mg/kg oral-rat LD50;
3100 mg/kg oral-mouse LD50; 4160 mg/kg oral-rabbit LD50; 5500 mg/kg
oral-guinea pig LD50.
CARCINOGEN STATUS: None.
LOCAL EFFECTS: Corrosive- inhalation, skin, and eyes; lacrimator.
ACUTE TOXICITY LEVEL: Toxic by inhalation. Moderately toxic by ingestion.
TARGET EFFECTS: Poisoning may affect the the heart, respiratory and central
nervous systems.
AT INCREASED RISK FROM EXPOSURE: Persons with pulmonary and respiratory
disorders.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HEALTH EFFECTS AND FIRST AID
INHALATION:
BROMINE:
CORROSIVE/TOXIC. 10 ppm Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health.
ACUTE EXPOSURE- Exposure to 1 ppm may cause irritation. 3.5 ppm has a
detectable odor; 10 ppm is severely irritation and may be intolerable:
40-60 ppm is dangerous for brief exposures; 1000 ppm is rapidly fatal.
Inhalation of small amounts may cause copious mucous secretion,
blephritis, coughing, rhinitis or nosebleeds, feelings of oppresion.
Epistaxis, vertigo, and headache. Delayed symptoms may include nausea,
diarrhea and abdominal pains. In addition, respiratory difficulty with
hoarseness
, asthma, dyspnea, and crepitations in the lungs as well as
as well as generalized vesicular, morbilliform or measles like rashes may
occur. Inhalation of high concentrations may cause inflammatory lesions of
the mucous membranes of the upper respiratory trac
t, fatal chemical burns
respiratory failure. The tongue and palate may appear inflamed and
edematous with a characteristic odor of the breat
h. Glottal spasms and
asthmatic bronchitits may occur. Pulmonary edema, pneumonitis or
pneumonia may be delayed for several hours. A case of pneumomediastinum
induced by accidental occupational exposure was reported. The pathology
of animals exposed to 300 ppm for 3 hours showed pulmonary edema,
pseudomembranous deposit on the trachea and bronchi, and hemorrhages of
the gastric mucosa. Functional disturbances of the central nervous system
were observed in animals that died several days after exposure.


CHRONIC EXPOSURE- Prolonged or repeated exposure to concentrations less than
0.1 mg/m3
may cause headache, chest pains, anorexia, indigestion,
irritability and joint pains.
Persons exposed to excessive concentrations
for 1 year complain of headache, pain in the region of the heart,
increasing irritability, loss of appetite, joint pains and dyspepsia.
After 5-6 years of exposure to this level there may be loss of corneal
reflexes, pharyngitis, vegetative disorders, thyroid hyperplasia
accompanied by thyroid dysfunction and bone marrow depression.
Cardiovascular disorders may occur in the form of myocardial degeneration
and hypotension. Functional and secretory disorders of the digestive
tract may also occur. Hematologic effects may include inhibition of
leukopoiesis, leukocytosis
, moderate hypoglycemia or altered blood sugar
curves, hypercholesterolemia, reduction of total bilirubin, decreased
hemoglobin concentration and increased erythrocyte sedimentation rates.
Bromine may be deposited in the tissues as bromides and accumulate to
cause central nervous system disorders and effects of bromism as detailed
in chronic ingestion.
the bold is mine, for symptoms Ive heard reported at one time or another.

Obviously, this not a source for all the side effects people are reporting, but it may be responsible for some of them. It is a rather potent drug, that many people are abusing, itll surely have some side-effects. The above source is just an MSDS, Ill check out some better sources later.

Just an idea.
 
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More info: from Shannon: Haddad and Winchester's Clinical Management of Poisoning and Drug Overdose, 4th ed.

Bromides are well absorbed from the gastrointestinal (GI) tract. Their oral bioavailability is about 96%, and peak serum concentrations are reached within 2 hours. Bromide has a low volume of distribution (0.35–0.48 L/kg) and tends to concentrate in erythrocytes and neurons.[12,][13]

Serum bromide concentrations are expressed in several units, including mEq/L, mg/L, mg/dL, and mmol/L. The interpretation of recorded values is therefore subject to considerable confusion. Because of bromide's close relationship with chloride, its serum concentrations are best expressed in the equivalent mEq/L or mmol/L. Unit relationships are as follows:

Bromide is readily filtered by the glomeruli. Once in the tubular lumen, bromide competes with chloride for reabsorption with tubules having a higher affinity for bromide ion; therefore, chloride is preferentially excreted under typical circumstances. As a result, prolonged administration of bromide results in significant total-body loss of chloride. An intimate relationship exists between in situ chloride and bromide concentrations; the body maintains the molar sum of chloride and bromide ion at about 110 mmol/L.[12] The elimination half-life of bromide is 7 to 12 days; this half-life is increased with a salt-deficient diet.[1,][11,][12] Average renal bromide clearance is about 26 mL/kg per day. Bromide readily diffuses across the placenta and accumulates in fetal tissues. It is also secreted into breast milk.
Although animal studies have reported LD50 in the range of 2 to 5 g/kg, the reported human lethal dose is as low as 14 mg/kg. Nonetheless, experimental administration of up to 9 mg/kg/day of bromide for 12 weeks was reported to cause difficulty with concentration and sleepiness only. Bromide intoxication usually results from long-term overmedication, resulting in bromism.

Bromism is a clinical syndrome that consists of GI, dermatologic, and CNS manifestations (Box 96-1). GI manifestations include nausea, vomiting, a fetid odor on the breath, anorexia, and weight loss.[2] Dermatologic manifestations are found in as many as 30% of those with bromism[2]; bromoderma is the name given to the associated skin lesions. The most common lesion is an acneiform eruption on the face. Another frequent finding is an eruption resembling ecthyma, appearing on the lower extremities (nodose bromoderma). Other skin lesions include pemphigus-like, bromide-filled vesicles on the lower extremity, erythema multiforme, pyoderma gangrenosum, and bromoderma tuberosum (tumor-like lesions).

The neurobehavioral signs and symptoms of bromism are prominent. Behavioral disturbances include the appearance of a bromide dementia characterized by delirium, agitation, auditory and visual hallucinations, depression, and schizophrenic and manic-depressive psychosis. Hallucinosis may occur with an otherwise clear consciousness. Neurologic manifestations of bromism include dysarthria, hyporeflexia, and coma. An increased cerebrospinal fluid protein level occurs in 2% to 40% of patients.[14] Low-grade fever may be found in as many as 25% of cases.[2] Neurologic signs of bromism are slow to resolve and lag behind the decrease in serum bromide concentration because of the slow diffusion of bromide out of the CNS.[13] Among those who present with obtundation or coma, retrograde amnesia may develop. Ocular findings may also be striking in bromide intoxication and may consist of mydriasis, color disturbances, blurred vision, and micropsia or macropsia. These latter two syndromes are perceptual distortions in which objects appear smaller or larger, respectively, than they actually are. Ocular bobbing (opsoclonus) has been described in a patient with bromide encephalopathy.[15] Papilledema is occasionally found on funduscopic evaluation.
 
... Nicotine gives me an adrenergic feeling reaction

Sounds like you're approaching late 2nd stage adrenal fatigue.

http://tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html
Three Stages of Adrenal Exhaustion

Mephedrone alone does not very easily cause adrenal fatigue, but it greatly accelerates the deficiency's progress given that other high stressors in lifestyle are present, as they usually are.

Seen numerous times, continuous - sometimes even light - mephedrone usage is responsible for breaking the camel's back and quickly leading to adrenal exhaustion. Whether this is due to direct toxicity, or that of metabolites or impurities is interesting but not essential.

By completely stopping mephedrone usage, one can mostly halt the exponential degeneration. However, if you continue to batter your adrenals every couple of weeks with any chemical abuse (including alcohol), your organs probably won't have enough time to recover from the damage made previously and the downward spiral slowly continues.

Thus, it gets more and more difficult to recover because exponentially longer time is required to fully recover the organs to their prior state after each stress situation.

After 2 and half years from ground zero, I can nowadays have a sixpack of beer with a few cigs once every couple of months, use health supplements moderately, have the occasional cup of coffee every few months, have sex max. 2-3 times a week, or be up until the little hours a couple of nights a week. This schedule enables my condition to slowly improve so that I can carefully reverse the adrenal fatigue first to "stable" level 1, then hopefully to near intact activity.

If I pass the line for any of these activities, my condition falls back and to avoid life-threatening cardiovascular symptoms rigorous lifestyle and diet requirements (including completely abstaining from alcohol, coffee, green tea, vitamins B,D, sugar, wheat products just for instance) are required for 3 to 6 months to only get back to the previous state. Having goofed up and gone through this a couple of times already, a good point is indeed that regular exercise speeds up recovery by roughly 50%.

Oh yes, all this with half a dozen moderate dosings of mephedrone containing products some 36 to 28 months ago - the stage had been set earlier but the scapegoat is pretty easy to name. Unfortunately, it usually requires personal experience or some form of divine intervention to be able practise the unexpectedly strict moderation to stop the descent to the very challenging deep adrenal fatigue that undoubtedly awaits many former mephedrone samplers or users.

Moderation is personal - well said but difficult to accept is that sometimes moderation means none. :\
 
With all due respect. Making a huge assumption like this based on one anecdote is silly. Have you got any proof that Mephedrone causes adrenal fatigue to the level where you can't even have fucking sugar? This strikes me as absurd.
 
No other stims taken during occasional stim binges aside from coffee during my only real 'stim' period.

Now I have heart disease.
 
With all due respect. Making a huge assumption like this based on one anecdote is silly. Have you got any proof that Mephedrone causes adrenal fatigue to the level where you can't even have fucking sugar? This strikes me as absurd.

Agreed. Given th nature of the source I would recommend ignoring that website's assertions as scaremongering rubbish until I can see some peer-reviewed medical evidence.

Absolute claptrap.
 
No other stims taken during occasional stim binges aside from coffee during my only real 'stim' period.

Now I have heart disease.

I'd appreciate more details from you; how did you find out you have heart disease, what were te signs and symptoms, what's your medical history if any, age, weight, lifestyle, etc?

The more information you provide, the better the chances you could help someone else who might be in the same situation without realising it.

What treatment are you getting?
 
Re: Adrenal Fatigue

IDK- I really have no idea, but I see how it is possible.

I hadn't really thought about this, or noticed it. The long lasting funk that follows may just be due to the primary effect of the drug. Still, many people are speculating on the existence of a long lasting vaso-constrictor as a metabolite. If this does exist then it might look a great deal like an analog of epinephrine. (conversion of the carboxyl to the hydroxyl is probably the first step in degradation. I have no clue how you would metabolize the para-methyl (any ideas?) The N- methyl blocks MAOI activity, so that wouldn't happen right away, but depending on the path this drug takes on its way out the kidney, it could definitely form an active metabolite. Thats the rule more than the exception, most drugs have active metabolites. The problem would be the speculated long lasting property- which- possibly could wear out the adrenal response; similar to overeating, causing the body to wear out its response to insulin leading to type II diabetes.

I recently had an epiphany that though the odds are slim, I really dont want to hear some horrible news about this stuff in like 5 years. Just imagine that there may be a possibility that 4mmc is actually 10,000x more neurotoxic than mdma. So I will not be touching this, or any research chem again. Its just not worth the risk to me. Everyone has their own limits though.

Everyone wants peer reviewed evidence before they are willing to admit there are actual real side effects. I would love to see a paper come out, surely someone is working on it. But the peer reviewed stuff takes years. The brain is so redundant, that neuro-degenerative diseases typically are asymptomatic until you have lost 70-80% of the associated neurons in your brain, so "i feel normal" is horrible evidence. Thats what terrifies me. Is there a parkinsonian type disease for serotonin?
 
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Yea, actually, I'd really like to know the same. This is what Ive found in researching how much damage Ive done to myself.

The heart disease is speculated to be similar to what was experienced in FenPhen (fenfluramine). Check out Wikipedia for the back story. Short version: there are serotonin receptors all over the body not just in the brain- the body likes to reuse different molecules it makes in many different ways- there are countless examples but its not just a neurotransmitter, its also a hormone. The blood brain barrier keeps serotonin and any other neurotransmitters from coming in. Thats why you cant just eat serotonin powder and feel good. One spot that receives serotonin signals is on the valves of the heart, were it appears to regulate growth. The valves grow larger, become fibrous and less flexible and eventually fail. Treatment is surgical and damage is permanent

This is also why its a horrible idea to take 5HTP supplements. I threw mine away last week as soon as I read this.

Another possible and more acute cause is the hypertension caused by the vasoconstriction effect and cardiac stimulation. Vasoconstriction squeezes more blood into circulation and the high heart rate caused by the stims sends blood pressure through the roof. Over time, the heart wears out from operating under high pressures. Its a stretchy bag of muscle, use your imagination. This was the mechanism behind the cardio-toxic effect of aminorex. We know that 4mmc has a very high cardiac load, in my experience, lasting up to 3 days to completely reach normal, so it wouldnt surprise me.

And again remember the way in which these drugs are used. The amount many report taking is often many many times the does of other similar stims, and for longer periods of time (for most), so these side effects will be greatly exacerbated if they exist.

There are other possibilities as well Im sure, maybe something new. Also, the first example is a possible negative side effect of any serotogenic releasing drug or prodrug (tryptophan or 5HTP), and the second of any stimulant abuse. So, theres no new info or radical ideas here.


I'd appreciate more details from you; how did you find out you have heart disease, what were te signs and symptoms, what's your medical history if any, age, weight, lifestyle, etc?

The more information you provide, the better the chances you could help someone else who might be in the same situation without realising it.

What treatment are you getting?
 
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he heart disease is speculated to be similar to what was experienced in FenPhen (fenfluramine).

By whom? When? Please provide links.

Serum serotonin is widely reported to cause fibrosis of the heart valves through 5-HT2B agonism, I believe, but whether mephedrone exhibits the same levels of damage as FenPhen would surely take years of study?

PandorasBox said:
Just imagine that there may be a possibility that 4mmc is actually 10,000x more neurotoxic than mdma.

No. Absolutely not without some shred of evidence. This is simply another scaremongering attitude, whether or not you intend it to be.

Let's try and stick to facts here, eh? If we're going to start speculating, let's try keep it to sensible academic discussion.

Wild theories don't help anyone.
 
Absolutely, there is no proof of anything. Anything I said is a stab in the dark, mere conjecture based on my current understanding of the body and chemicals from reading a very wide range of sources. Proving it would take years, you are correct. And I only meant to convey my reservations for volunteering to be the one to prove it one way or another. No more, no less.

Please try and keep the discussion constructive, or else I'll just head somewhere else.

Links for systemic 5HT and heart valves- PMID 15781732, PMID 12466135, PMID: 20455335, PMID: 20237052
-obviously does this drug share this same side effect. I think its worth noting the possibility exists, but also that this is a long term thing.

"10,000 times" hah, just a personal thought, sorry if it offended. Just meant to say what if something came out concrete in a few years I really didnt want to hear.

Right now I am thinking about the combination of vasoconstriction, cardiac stimulation, and hyperthermia as the most likely most toxic side effects.

Evidence for vasoconstriction is in the blue joints- the cutaneous tissue over joints is not as well vascularized as other skin because the joints themselves are basically avascular. Ischemia is easiest to detect there, however, the worst damage is being done to the heart, kidney, and brain, where metabolic wastes build up quickest.


By whom? When? Please provide links.

Serum serotonin is widely reported to cause fibrosis of the heart valves through 5-HT2B agonism, I believe, but whether mephedrone exhibits the same levels of damage as FenPhen would surely take years of study?



No. Absolutely not without some shred of evidence. This is simply another scaremongering attitude, whether or not you intend it to be.

Let's try and stick to facts here, eh? If we're going to start speculating, let's try keep it to sensible academic discussion.

Wild theories don't help anyone.
 
Does anyone have access to this:

Curr Drug Metab. 2010 Jun 1;11(5):468-82.

Metabolism of designer drugs of abuse: an updated review.

my liscense only gets me to one year before today.
 
Maybe I was too harsh on you PandorasBox; you seem to be a keen scholar. I just suffer an uncontrollably violent pathological reaction to the BS propagated by some websites in order to help them sell their snake oil, and adrenal fatigue seems thus far to be a likely member of this category.

For the record, what I actually know about anything - at all - could be written on a postage stamp with a blunt crayon...

=o)
 
Trusting that currently lacking scientific evidence for toxicity of research chemicals makes them harmless, is plain madness.

I do not need peer-reviewed evidence to notice that my health has been fucked up for years. With intense and careful study in hindsight I have concluded mephedrone played a part in that. Speaking out about such a find on a harm reduction forum should by all means be desirable, and not to be discounted.

There are still diseases that do not even have a name. Adrenal fatigue not of them, it is a widely recognized complication that is fortunately being slowly pulled into mainstream medicine. Debate about its existence is fruitless.

The brain is so redundant, that neuro-degenerative diseases typically are asymptomatic until you have lost 70-80%

For exactly that reason, the scare for neurotoxicity is over-emphasized compared to other risks of research chemicals. Detriments such as hepato- nephro- or cardiovascular toxicity are much more effective in fucking up the quality of your life. It is wise to pay due attention to these risks.
 
There's a boy I know who at the age of 12 was a completely normal 12 yearold boy a bit shy but normal, at the age of 13 he became seriously addicted to Mephedrone, buying grams in their dozens off the internet, now at the age of 14 he has come off mephedrone, but the damage is done, he has gone insane, don't ask me the ins and outs of it I'm not an expert, but this shy boy, has turned into a loud, twitchy, wreck who is always shouting and can be seen at the local music festival starting fights he always looses pouring beer over himself and passed out in a pool of his own vomit.
This was a definate result of the mephedrone as the change was to fast and to extreme to just happen over two years naturally
 
There's a boy I know who at the age of 12 was a completely normal 12 yearold boy a bit shy but normal, at the age of 13 he became seriously addicted to Mephedrone, buying grams in their dozens off the internet, now at the age of 14 he has come off mephedrone, but the damage is done, he has gone insane, don't ask me the ins and outs of it I'm not an expert, but this shy boy, has turned into a loud, twitchy, wreck who is always shouting and can be seen at the local music festival starting fights he always looses pouring beer over himself and passed out in a pool of his own vomit.
This was a definate result of the mephedrone as the change was to fast and to extreme to just happen over two years naturally

Perhaps he just turned into a teenager?
 
Perhaps this is the result of a young kid having access to large amounts of a powerful drug for a year?

I have no doubt if a 13 year old kid spent a year taking dozens of grams of MDMA they might have similar problems.

Whilst personally i find some of the health problems that have been associated with mephedrone quite worrying, and the uncertainty that comes with so many people taking such a new drugs also worrying, if a 13 year old kid can take so much for a whole year and not die that tells you that it's far from instantly deadly.

Going through puberty is hard enough as it is. I can't imagine drug addiction would make it any easier.
 
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