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Opioids CWE mess up. Insight on APAP poisoning.

happygoluckygal said:
Even if your friend didn't do the CWE perfectly, Im sure he knows what to do since you said he does it regularly. The fluid is GOING to be cloudy.

Bottom line is you dont really KNOW that the CWE didnt work! It could have worked just fine. 99.999% of the details are pointing to the hydro as the culprit.

Time to stop freaking out.
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Well judging on the large glass / volume of water he used (besides the fact that he only used 1 coffee filter / rushed it) I think its safe to say he didn't know what he was doing, doesn't do it regularly. This stuff wasn't just cloudy, you couldn't see through it.

Provoke was right on the water volume/solibility I checked it out, I definitely got hit up with a large amount of APAP. But I am confident not enough to cause any real danger & I'll be fine, although say 3500mg "at once" is not good - from what I read I'm good.

So liver enzymes only spike temporarily then return to normal, with no damage left/caused even at that APAP level, even if taken at once?
 
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Man that pic made me thirsty!!!!!

Dude, you should have just started with 2 5/500 without a CWE it wouldn't have been toxic, i used to always avoid ANY acetaminophen when i was drinking but my doc said 1 gram is fine as a single dose. Furthermore 10 mg hydrocodone in somebody opiate naive would be pretty decent itself.
 
If the CWE didn't work at all, then he wouldn't have pulled out anything in the filter and the pills would just be crushed and mixed in the water. You cannot mess up an extraction that badly; most of the APAP is going to stay in the filter no matter how perfect you do it. It will be somewhat cloudy no matter, as well.

It sounds to me like you took too much hydrocodone. Try taking less next time. (Edit- For opiate naive people, 40mg is way too high. I recommend 10-15mg depending on sex, size, etc)
 
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Pegasus said:
If the CWE didn't work at all, then he wouldn't have pulled out anything in the filter and the pills would just be crushed and mixed in the water. You cannot mess up an extraction that badly; most of the APAP is going to stay in the filter no matter how perfect you do it. It will be somewhat cloudy no matter, as well.
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What about the APAP solubility in water though? At at 0.8g apap/100ml cold water solubility, wouldn't that mean that 3.2g (3200mg) of the APAP from the 8 Vics would have been soluble thus would have dissolved into that amount of water (400ml) ?

So if 3.2g (3200mg) of the apap were able to become soluble in the 400ml of water wouldn't they too pass through the filter into the glass? so wouldn't the stuff that the filter picked up just be the other 800mg that didn't dissolve in that amount of water, thus being able to be caught in the filter? and wouldn't the cloudiness / residue in the water show that some of non dissolved stuff made it through as well from him squeezing the filter to speed the process up, forcing even more apap into the glass beyond the 3200mg?

I don't know its just hard to get the thought out of my head that I pretty much took a 8 Vicodin Liver/Kidney shot at once..
Sure seems like it! lol
 
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Without getting into numbers (APAP is practically insoluble in cold water, BTW), my point is that a CWE results in a large clump of APAP coming out in thie filter (compared to the size of the pills before they went in, the size of the clump will be fairly close). If he did the extraction, then there was a clump of APAP left that contained a considerable proportion of the APAP. Even if he messed it up slightly, the big clump of powder that was pulled out was proof enough that the extraction worked at least reasonably well... If he didn't get a clump (probably impossible, given that he did in fact use a filter), that's the only way your numbers would come into play.

Let's go a step further becuase you're obviosuly not convincend and still freaking out. 3200mg of APAP at once is not going to poison you. You'd need more like 10,000mg to do that, or like 7,000mg every day over a long period to become hepatotoxic...
 
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Whenever I must consume APAP on a regular basis I take standardized silymarin (Milk Thistle) extract which has been shown to improve the liver's ability to remove toxins.
 
Pegasus said:
Without getting into numbers (APAP is practically insoluble in cold water, BTW), my point is that a CWE results in a large clump of APAP coming out in thie filter (compared to the size of the pills before they went in, the size of the clump will be fairly close). If he did the extraction, then there was a clump of APAP left that contained a considerable proportion of the APAP. Even if he messed it up slightly, the big clump of powder that was pulled out was proof enough that the extraction worked at least reasonably well... If he didn't get a clump (probably impossible, given that he did in fact use a filter), that's the only way your numbers would come into play.

Let's go a step further becuase you're obviosuly not convincend and still freaking out. 3200mg of APAP at once is not going to poison you. You'd need more like 10,000mg to do that, or like 7,000mg every day over a long period to become hepatotoxic...
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I guess its stupid research that is getting me paranoid here. Just read this on wikipedia: "Reports of death from acute hepatotoxicity have been reported to be as low as 2.5 grams apap over a 24 hour period". cited at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatotoxicity Doesn't elaborate, but obviously this would have had to been a child or something..lol

and btw the 0.8/100ml apap solubility in cold water checks out, look it up. The success of removing a large amount of the apap (if done correctly usually upwards of 90% ) depends greatly upon the amount of water used. Yes its true that with a small amount of cold water APAP is practically insoluble in it, but this is simply because its such a small amount. At 0.8g per 100ml of water solubility.. if your only using 10ml of water the maximum amount of apap soluble would be 0.2g (200mg) which would obviously never be a problem. But in my case at an extremely large amount of water (400ml), 3.2gs apap (3200mg) therefore became soluble. and he did this ghetto, there wasn't much stuff in the filter "at all" left from the 8 Vicodins. Maybe about a dab of toothpaste worth.

anywaysss... ;)

lets say forget the cwe, hypothetically 8 Vicodins (4000mg apap) taken at once / not spread out. Obviously not going to poison / kill you... ok.

But will that much hitting your liver at once cause enough NAPQI to be produced to do "any" damage to "any amount" of liver cells at all, even if in a minor degree?

or does it take a literal poisoning amount of APAP (8, 9, 10,000mg plus at once as you mention it) for the liver to try to metabolise before it produces enough NAPQI (thus reduce enough NAC) to cause any damage "whatsoever"?

So even though mainstream says 1,000mg per dose, 4000mg per 24hrs maximum to stay in safety. you can actually take upwards to 7,000 - 8,000 some mg "at once" and still be ok, with no damage caused to any part of your body at all?

your liver can safely metabolise this big amounts all at once?
 
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If you are concerned about having consumed too much APAP/paracetamol there is a drug that, if taken within 3 days will disperse it from your liver before serious damage is done. I'm sorry, don't know its name (it was my sister who informed me about this, she's a state registered nurse), but they have it at A&E. Its main use is for attempted suicide cases involving paracetamol, but if you go in and tell them you accidentally took too much they will probably give you some.

And the end result of a CWE should be COMPLETELY CLEAR whatever method you are using. If it isn't, filter it again.

Practice practice practice.
 
hey man, you're typing on the internet. you're fine. i've taken 10g of tylenol in 24h before. i know lots of other people who have, i know a lot of people here have. it's a bad idea, but quit freaking out.
 
if you have no tolerance even without the apap that is way too much. You should only need 1 or 2 every 3 hours and u should leave the apap in there. Also since you dont EVER take apap your liver is not used to it.

I remember when i first took them my friend and i got sick from too much of the apap, never ever happened again and this was yearss ago.
 
passtheflask said:
hey man, you're typing on the internet. you're fine. i've taken 10g of tylenol in 24h before. i know lots of other people who have, i know a lot of people here have. it's a bad idea, but quit freaking out.
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I'm not really concerned for my life of anything here. Basically just taking this experience to try to educate myself on the subject. Mainly to find out (judging on how I felt / feel) if any damage could have possibly done from this is all. (to any part of my body.)

any insight on the points I raised in my last post would be greatly appreciated. :)
 
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Problem with paracetamol is that an 'overdose' or even an amount that could be damaging won't make you feel ill straight away.

Personally, IMO the pharm companies tactic of including paracetamol in over-the-counter codeine products simply in order to prevent 'abuse' is a fucking disgrace!
 
I REALLY don't think that the Pharm co's including Tylenol in the codeine preparations is done SOLELY to prevent abuse. Those medications are commonly combined with Tylenol for pain control/fever reduction.
 
happygoluckygal said:
I REALLY don't think that the Pharm co's including Tylenol in the codeine preparations is done SOLELY to prevent abuse. Those medications are commonly combined with Tylenol for pain control/fever reduction.
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I'm UK-based, Tylenol isn't available here but there's a Tylenol 2, 3, 4 isnt there. varying amounts of the ope but all with the max dose of 500mg paracetamol. Except the strongest ope-wise which has only 300mg apap per tab I believe. Why? a pack of generic paracetamol costs 16 pence at the supermarket.

Its the same here with codeine. Strongest OTC codeine product (with no other active ingredient) is Codeine Linctus....600mg codeine in one 200ml bottle. But its being rapidly phased out....just the odd independents stock it....Lloyds, Boots forget it...

Then we get down to the real dross & some places look at you as if you're Iggy Pop or Lou Reed if you ask for a pack of Nurofen Plus (12.5 mg codeine plus enough ibroprufin to tale the lining of your stomach).

If I havent got the codeine linctus in, I do a CWE on a pack of standard 8/500 co-codamol. You get suspicious looks asking for that in some places ffs.
 
passtheflask said:
hey man, you're typing on the internet. you're fine. i've taken 10g of tylenol in 24h before. i know lots of other people who have, i know a lot of people here have. it's a bad idea, but quit freaking out.
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Just in case some inexperienced people are reading this, 10 grams in 24 hours is potentially toxic.
 
Enoch said:
I guess its stupid research that is getting me paranoid here. Just read this on wikipedia: "Reports of death from acute hepatotoxicity have been reported to be as low as 2.5 grams apap over a 24 hour period". cited at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatotoxicity Doesn't elaborate, but obviously this would have had to been a child or something..lol

and btw the 0.8/100ml apap solubility in cold water checks out, look it up. The success of removing a large amount of the apap (if done correctly usually upwards of 90% ) depends greatly upon the amount of water used. Yes its true that with a small amount of cold water APAP is practically insoluble in it, but this is simply because its such a small amount. At 0.8g per 100ml of water solubility.. if your only using 10ml of water the maximum amount of apap soluble would be 0.2g (200mg) which would obviously never be a problem. But in my case at an extremely large amount of water (400ml), 3.2gs apap (3200mg) therefore became soluble. and he did this ghetto, there wasn't much stuff in the filter "at all" left from the 8 Vicodins. Maybe about a dab of toothpaste worth.

anywaysss... ;)

lets say forget the cwe, hypothetically 8 Vicodins (4000mg apap) taken at once / not spread out. Obviously not going to poison / kill you... ok.

But will that much hitting your liver at once cause enough NAPQI to be produced to do "any" damage to "any amount" of liver cells at all, even if in a minor degree?

or does it take a literal poisoning amount of APAP (8, 9, 10,000mg plus at once as you mention it) for the liver to try to metabolise before it produces enough NAPQI (thus reduce enough NAC) to cause any damage "whatsoever"?

So even though mainstream says 1,000mg per dose, 4000mg per 24hrs maximum to stay in safety. you can actually take upwards to 7,000 - 8,000 some mg "at once" and still be ok, with no damage caused to any part of your body at all?

your liver can safely metabolise this big amounts all at once?
Click to expand...

The solubility of APAP goes down and down as the water gets colder and colder, and that is why you want the water like "icy cold". But even if it was not as icy cold as it could have been and got a gunk of the APAP out, then you successfully got out enough to not have even came close to the lethal levels.
 
Levvytation; Personally said:
I hear you my friend, some products even seem to make a cwe more difficult, therefore i only buy one special brand.

I have never seen codeine linctus: i was pissed off in january when i had the worst cold of my life & asked for a codeine syrup only to be given pholcodeine!

To the op, depending on where you live, it would be cool to just ask your doctor for a liver enzyme blood test, i BET it will put your mind at ease on this.

p.s Levvytation, can u tell me how this codeine linctus bottle appears???
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Levvytation...our Tylenol with Codeine Preps here in the US vary with the amt of codeine and the amt of APAP.

As an example:

Tylenol #2 has 20mg codeine and 200 mg APAP

Tylenol #3 has 30mg codeine and 300 mg APAP

Tylenol #4 has 60mh codeine and 300mg APAP

Now, what you said about the Pharm co's putting the max allowed dose of the Paracetomol in the preparations to deter abuse makes perfect sense in that kind of setting (in the UK), b/c the drug is available over the counter...so the aubse potential is much higher due to easier access.

OP...the liver is about the most forgiving organ there is. That's not to say it would be wise to abuse it...but a ONE time hefty dose of APAP is NOT going to harm you, unless you had a preexisting liver condition. I used to abuse Norcos (10mg Hydro and 325mg APAP per pill) and at the height of my usage, before calling it quits, I was taking 13-14 tabs at a time every 3 (sometimes even every TWO) hours!!!!!! Sure, there was a decent amt of vomiting, which probably helped spare me...but after 9 months of this...my liver was just fine. Sure, there will be case studies stating that someone had liver failure and needed a transplant after ONE tylenol, but that isn't the norm. We're giving you facts here. It's good to educate yourself so you don't place yourself in a bad situation...but as far as needing to worry about long term effects...you don't need to. SOOOOOO QUIT WORRYING! :0)
 
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