what makes something psychedelic/hallucingenic drug

[Jabberwocky]

????????

 

[melquiades]

Obligatory obnoxious wikipedia quote:

The term psychedelic is derived from the Greek words ψυχή (psyche, "soul") and δηλείν (delein, "to manifest"), translating to "mind-manifesting". A psychedelic experience is characterized by the perception of aspects of one's mind previously unknown, or by the creative exuberance of the mind liberated from its ostensibly ordinary fetters. Psychedelic states are an array of experiences elicited by various techniques, including sensory stimulation, sensory deprivation as well as by psychedelic substances. Such experiences include hallucinations, changes of perception, synesthesia, altered states of awareness, mystical states, and occasionally states resembling psychosis.

Soooo it depends. I know that mescaline and DXM tend to be borderline psychedelics. Shrooms, acid and DMT are definitely psychedelics.

I'm not sure if there's any uniting effect or principle in psychedelics. Even if there was, people have different trips so... it would be difficult to list any one thing.

"Radically expanded perceptions" might be a good way to put it.

As for "what makes something a hallucinogenic drug": It's something that makes you hallucinate.

 

[greenmeanies]

tickle, you need to lurk moar.

try asking wikipedia about psychedelics
and read pihkal/tihkal until you know them by heart

basically our understanding (still incomplete) is that psychedelia is controlled by the 5HT2a system, which is why psychedelic drugs are 5HT agonists. some of these drugs bear chemical resemblance to 5HT (psilocin, 5-meo-dmt) with a tryptamine skeleton, while others more closely resemble dopamine (mda, mescaline, 2c-everything) with a phenethylamine skeleton, but the key thing to remember is they all work on the 5HT system.

remember, it is your brain which is doing the tripping, not the drug. the drug is just a key to unlock the potential you hold within.

 

[Jabberwocky]

so is weed a psych?

 

[swilow]

so is weed a psych?

It certainly can be Psychedelic is a nebulous kinda term; its probably easier to say what isn't a psychedelic then what is. For example, cocaine IS NOT a psychedelic drug...

Usually, a psychedelic or hallucinogen can be classified by what receptors they target: drugs that agonise serotonin at 5HT2a recptors (block serotonin and modulate transmission of electrical current through this receptor subtype) are generally psychedelic (like LSD, DMT, mushrooms, mescaline, etc.)- drugs that inhibit the response of acetyl-choline (ie. anticholinergics like atropine, dipenhydramine and scopolamine etc.) are hallucinogen/deleriants, but would sit closer with psychedelics then any other class of drug; drugs that antagonise NMDA recptors (n-Methyl-d-Aspartate) such as ketamine and DXM and PCP, whilst dissociative, are also psychedelic/hallucinogenic. Then we have things like salvia which works on kappa-opioid receptors; its psychedelic and hallucinogenic and dissociative....and kinda fucked up too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_drug

 

[mr.mackey]

Lol, whoever thinks mescaline is a "borderline" psychedelic either hasn't been around the past 5000 years or hasn't eaten enough..

I think the terms psychedelic and hallucinogenic have slightly different connotations. Psychedelic tends to have a more positive one, in that it means "mind manifesting" whereas hallucinogenic tends to be associated with hallucinations which tend to be associated with insanity (hence why anti drug info always uses this terminology).

I think its better to think in terms of effects rather than the pharmacology, because NDMA receptor antagonists like PCP, DXM and Ketamine have very very different effects on the brain, yet are clearly psychedelic in that they produce changes in consciousness like distortions in the perception of time and space as well as sight, sound and proprioception. Ibogaine is another example, there is alot going on there pharmacologically, and it is only a weak agonist for 5-HT2a, while alot more of the action so to speak is going on in the NMDA system as well as sigma receptors, acetylcholine receptors and opiate receptors.

Psychedelic is somewhat arbitrary term (which Richard Schultes hated, and I for one respect him alot more than the buffoon that leary was) used to describe a whole array of experiences. for example, staying awake for 5 days on a meth binge might fit the definition of hallucinogenic or psychedelic in the sense that you may experience dialtion of space and time, have hallucinations or states resembling psychosis, yet such an experience is radically different from that of a "traditional" psychedelic one.

so, it isn't exactly clear, because such terms are incredibly arbitrary

 

[killo]

Nothing is a psychedelic drug.

It's only the substance LSD unlocking your brain to cause change in perception. It's you doing it all.

With that said, you can even take lower doses of mushrooms/LSD and they are nothing like a psychedelic experience.

 

[Feste]

Soooo it depends. I know that mescaline and DXM tend to be borderline psychedelics. Shrooms, acid and DMT are definitely psychedelics.

Mescaline is in no way a borderline psychedelic. It was the studied psychedelic before LSD came along.

 

[melquiades]

Mescaline is in no way a borderline psychedelic. It was the studied psychedelic before LSD came along.

Yeah, I know. But I've heard some people (like the fine gentlemen over at 420chan) say that mescaline is more of a deliriant or dissociative than a psychedelic.

edit/// shit, you're right, I was thinking of ketamine, not of mescaline.

 

[JackARoe]

This is really an excellent question on par with the science thread looking for correct terms for explaining the experience. Since the different psychedelics are similar there are a few differences in how they operate in a brain.

Most people who have done these would agree that the insight into self and universe is a big part of the effect of a psychedelic. Yet in science it is completely unprovable and can sound corny to someone who has never went through an experience. The term "mind manifesting" itself may be a term that can cause critisim. I realize lots of things are unprovable in science when it comes to thoughts and validating experiences. And as some people have commented in the other thread it seems psycedelic experiences are powerful but the complete opposite to the presdictability of scientific "facts".

So what are the catch words that separate mushrooms to say datura? I know lots of answers, but they come back to the whole mind manifesting unprovable terms that science hates. Then again I always thought science is very limited in explaining consciousness and its by products. Sure water boils at a certain temperature, but why is there even an observer to see that?

 

[Delsyd]

I know lots of answers, but they come back to the whole mind manifesting unprovable terms that science hates. Then again I always thought science is very limited in explaining consciousness and its by products.

^well said

 

[aussieblues]

so is weed a psych?

It certainly can be, especially at higher doses. However, psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, DMT, mescaline, ALD-52, 4-ACO-DMT, etc. are on a completely different level. If you're planning a first experience don't expect to be able to go about your regular daily routine. Happy tripping!

 

[Mjäll]

I think a psychedelic is best defined as something that manipulates the serotonin system, as greenmeanies said.

Does anyone know if a similar manipulating agonism of the dopamine system would have psychedelic effects? I know these are two completely different signal substances and that dopamine is probably more responsible for primal emotion whereas serotonin mediates the more complex relations between sensory and cognitive. Is this view correct?

 

[swilow]

^Dopamine agonists can cause "psychotic" effects, including hallucinations.

 

[killo]

The way that LSD an other psychedelics affect dopamine IMO doesn't have a "Direct effect" on mood, as compared to something like amphetamine or cocaine.

Even though technically LSD and mushrooms touch on dopamine receptors, the manner and way they do it doesn't "force" your emotions to be a certain way.

Psychedelics can never be understood by using science to say "ok this does this blah blah".

It's not even understood how they work, even though we know some receptors they hit on(mostly serotonin).

It's the subjective experience that defines psychedelic, pretty much.

On LSD one can experience anger, joy, happiness, laughter, depression, anxiety and all these emotions are an effect of your perceptions and how you "take it".

On amphetamines you can't "go with the flow" to resolve anxiety. That's an effect of amps.

On LSD you can choose to be happy and anxiety free, it's all your mind. You create your reality.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[ResinTeeth]

Yeah, I know. But I've heard some people (like the fine gentlemen over at 420chan) say that mescaline is more of a deliriant or dissociative than a psychedelic.

edit/// shit, you're right, I was thinking of ketamine, not of mescaline.

Edit or not 420chan is pretty hit or miss with the quality of information people post on there. Just a heads up.

 

[swilow]

The way that LSD an other psychedelics affect dopamine IMO doesn't have a "Direct effect" on mood, as compared to something like amphetamine or cocaine.

Even though technically LSD and mushrooms touch on dopamine receptors, the manner and way they do it doesn't "force" your emotions to be a certain way.

Psychedelics can never be understood by using science to say "ok this does this blah blah".

It's not even understood how they work, even though we know some receptors they hit on(mostly serotonin).

It's the subjective experience that defines psychedelic, pretty much.

On LSD one can experience anger, joy, happiness, laughter, depression, anxiety and all these emotions are an effect of your perceptions and how you "take it".

On amphetamines you can't "go with the flow" to resolve anxiety. That's an effect of amps.

On LSD you can choose to be happy and anxiety free, it's all your mind. You create your reality.

I hope this makes sense.

Actually, its relatively well established as to how LSD works....I don't know why you mentioned amphetamines, but "anxiety" isn't an effect; its the users interpretation of the effect: exactly the same as with LSD....

 

[DOB]

for me Psychedelic is anything that shut down that part of brain that filters information from senses before they go into consciousness,giving world that Hi Definition vibez

 

[melquiades]

Edit or not 420chan is pretty hit or miss with the quality of information people post on there. Just a heads up.

I know, I just love all the pictures and their ADD.