Opioids Tolerance Prevention- Progluminde or ULD-Naltrexone?

[arthunter888]

I've been doing opana twice a week for some time, and now I've decided to put an effort into keeping tolerance at bay without abstaining.

I'm going to try proglumide or ultra-low-dose naltrexone, as both can be ordered online. For those with experience in this matter please shed some light as to which one is more recommended? I'd say I've been doing around a 1/3 of an opana 40mg (after re-dosing a few) by the end of the days that I use.

These are my main questions (can apply to either or both):

1) How effective is it, and at what dosage?
2) (How) Does it change the opiate high or euphoria-level?
3) Are there any cautions or negative side effects to it?
4) Which one is preferred overall and why?

 

[Cyb]

I cannot really answer 1) and 2), but...

3) Take caution with Proglumide as tolerance to the drug itself can and will form. It is normally taken on a week on / week off cycle.
4)If you are not using needles, and only using once or twice a week, I would just stick to oral Proglumide. It would be much easier to just dose some Proglumide the days before using, as well as the day of using (and perhaps the day after?) than preparing, storing, and dosing ULDN properly.

The above is just my opinion on the matter, by no means is it an indepth, scientific, or final word on the matter.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

3) If you take too much of an antagonist it'll not be as pretty as regular gett high.

Honestly the best way to prevent opiate tolerance is to not dose as frequently or often, and to cut back on the dose if you're losing the magic.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^fully agreed. About once a week someone comes around bluelight asking for a way to attenuate tolerance (I actually did at one point myself) and if there was a tried and true way of doing this, don't you think all these resourceful junkies who figure out how to void wax matrices would've come up with something by now and it'd be common knowledge?

What C.H said is the truth... want to avoid tolerance? use less.

 

[arthunter888]

I'm kind of psychologically addicted to opiates, so twice a week is the LEAST I can bring myself to use, not to mention opiates cut my cravings for cannabis, which is good since opiates are much healthier than smoked cannabis. Luckily I don't really crave opiates more than twice a week, so it's not a bad schedule to be at and could be worse IMO.

I appreciate the advice, but please try to focus on the two listed options (or DXM if it is even close in effectiveness) for tolerance prevention (even if it is partial prevention) because in terms of will power, dosing less frequently is NOT an option for me.

In regard to dosing properly on the ULD naltrexone, this should not be a problem since I plan on getting a milligram scale, and can calculate a proper dose based on the naltrexone dose per pill and the total mass of the pill (assuming that the naltrexone dose is evenly distributed through the pill, is it not?).

Keep it coming, anything you can input on the subject, thanks.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I'm kind of psychologically addicted to opiates, so twice a week is the LEAST I can bring myself to use, not to mention opiates cut my cravings for cannabis, which is good since opiates are much healthier than smoked cannabis.

I disagree with this. Opiates and smoked cannabis are just as healthy as each other, and you cannot feasibly overdose on cannabis, not to mention it has killed no one.

I appreciate the advice, but please try to focus on the two listed options (or DXM if it is even close in effectiveness) for tolerance prevention (even if it is partial prevention) because in terms of will power, dosing less frequently is NOT an option for me.

Well then either increase your dose or deal with less effects. You can't demand effects out of drugs I don't think it really works like that.

In regard to dosing properly on the ULD naltrexone, this should not be a problem since I plan on getting a milligram scale, and can calculate a proper dose based on the naltrexone dose per pill and the total mass of the pill (assuming that the naltrexone dose is evenly distributed through the pill, is it not?).

It would probably be easier (and safer) to water-measure the naltrexone. I still have no idea how to go about utilizing ULD naltrexone.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

for those of us who take small <1mg doses of suboxone at a time with the small amount of naloxone in the subs, i know its different than naltrexone, but wouldn't it essentially be like doing the same thing as ULDN? or not because the bupe out competes it? or not because naltrexone is longer acting than naloxone? or am i just thinking of random questions cuz im bored? lol :D

EDIT: sorry OP for hijacking your thread..

 

[arthunter888]

I disagree with this. Opiates and smoked cannabis are just as healthy as each other, and you cannot feasibly overdose on cannabis, not to mention it has killed no one.

Hmm, I still have to disagree with this. While it is true that cannabis does not lead to overdoses like opiates are notorious for, opiate overdoses AFAIK are not the result of direct toxicity, but are from indirect physiological side effects --most notably respiratory depression / change in blood pressure (especially when mixing other downers).

Cannabis, however contains thousands of different chemicals. I'm pretty sure THC is non-toxic, but even if we assume that all the other cannabinoids are safe, one still must consider that the most common way is smoking cannabis, which adds a lot of nasty combustion products (including CO and CO2) that are known to be toxic and carcinogenic. And AFAIK, opiate molecules themselves were never accused of being neuro-toxic/carcinogenic, so unless you are choosing a risky ROA method or risky dose, or the opiate pills contain toxic filler chemicals, then your health won't be effected much at an opiate dose that is proper for your tolerance.

Maybe when I said "healthy" you were thinking in terms of death rates (in which case cannabis would win) but I meant overall accumulative effects on bodily wellness such as organ health, brain health, and avoiding cancer (which I believe are compromised somewhat b/c of the combustion products). In terms of this definition of "healthy" does my argument make sense?

p.s. I admire (from other posts) Captain H's knowledge, I'm just trying to learn, not attack. thanks

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^in studies of lifelong cigarette smokers versus lifelong cigarette + marijuana smokers the former was actually at higher risk for developing lung cancer... this made no sense and they theorized the opposite prior to the study. They speculate that marijuana actually has anti-cancer properties.

This is some other information on marijuana and cancer.

And what does it matter if opioids kill due to direct toxicity or through side effects like respiratory depression? Its still the opioids causing this.

When it comes down to it and when used responsibly, neither cannabis nor opiates are very damaging or dangerous relatively speaking so this whole argument seems sort of futile, like arguing if oxy or heroin is more euphoric.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

for those of us who take small <1mg doses of suboxone at a time with the small amount of naloxone in the subs, i know its different than naltrexone, but wouldn't it essentially be like doing the same thing as ULDN? or not because the bupe out competes it? or not because naltrexone is longer acting than naloxone? or am i just thinking of random questions cuz im bored? lol :D

EDIT: sorry OP for hijacking your thread..

I theorize that naloxone may help keep our tolerances down with buprenorphine. I've been able to taper down to 100mcg per dose and I still get ridiculously high from it (I prefer it to full agonists because of the lack of acute WD symptoms, and the abscence of mu-opioid up-regulation).

However I have yet to try Subutex, I can't say for certain. Interesting theoretical point, deezy! I'm interested to see what other people have to say.

p.s. I admire (from other posts) Captain H's knowledge, I'm just trying to learn, not attack. thanks

At least your retort was more than "smoke can't be good for your lungs!" - and was more complex than a sentence or two.

I definitely understand your point, but THC has cancer fighting properties to it. Whatever tars you inhale from marijuana smoke that might make cells likely to turn cancerous, THC encourages cell lysis (hence THC encourages cancerous cells to die off instead of growing and metastasizing). This is the theory behind the results Cane talks about below.

^in studies of lifelong cigarette smokers versus lifelong cigarette + marijuana smokers the former was actually at higher risk for developing lung cancer... this made no sense and they theorized the opposite prior to the study. They speculate that marijuana actually has anti-cancer properties.

This is some other information on marijuana and cancer.

And what does it matter if opioids kill due to direct toxicity or through side effects like respiratory depression? Its still the opioids causing this.

When it comes down to it and when used responsibly, neither cannabis nor opiates are very damaging or dangerous relatively speaking so this whole argument seems sort of futile, like arguing if oxy or heroin is more euphoric.

Great point cane! And thanks for the links! You referred to the study I was alluding to.

You also make a good point about the respiratory depression. However I also understand the idea that it's more indirect of a death, and that it's less likely to happen if you are a tolerant opiate user who is just using opiates.

Mixing CNS depressants makes it much easier to OD due to opiates (and other CNS depressants).

 

[arthunter888]

Okay, maybe it is hopeful that THC has cancer fighting effects, but even if we're generous and say this is definitely true, possible cancer was not my only problem with smoked cannabis, it's just one of them.

Combustion products are just plain bad for the body in a number of ways. The cancer thing aside, combustion products are sure to kill brain cells/neurons (which don't repair/replace well), they damage lung tissue (e.g. aveoli [sp?], which again don't repair or replace well), they reduce immunity, and probably effect liver functioning to a degree. I'm sure THC doesn't protect against combustion chemicals.

You don't get any of these 'nasties' from opiates (unless smoking) or anything comparable to them usually. And overdosing on opiates is not an inherent effect of using opiates responsibly, it's usually a result of risky behavior such as mixing other drugs or not keeping track of a sharp decrease in tolerance then resuming to higher doses again.

What I'm getting at is that if you use opiates responsibly your health likely will not be effected by them, but even if you smoke cannabis responsibly you can't avoid the above problems with combustion chemicals. And the only other realistic healthy ROA's for cannabis are an expensive quality vaporizer, or eating it which entails increasing the dose a lot, neither of which are as economical as smoking for people who don't have much money to spare.

I love cannabis just as much as opiates, but I can't push myself to ignore the difference between a healthy-but-expensive cannabis high (eaten/vaped) and an economical-smoked cannabis high: real 'dirty' feeling, lethargy, burnt feeling, unable to concentrate, sore lungs, basically obvious indicators of having consumed unhealthy chemicals (even with infrequent use). And to boot for me this is all with high-quality headies, not mids. The proof of the pudding is that I just don't feel this way after an opiate high, it's just back to normal when it's over.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Okay, maybe it is hopeful that THC has cancer fighting effects,

There's really no maybe about it. It's very much so true, and there's a cover up that's been going on ever since 1974. The government would not have seized the findings at MCV, and then consequentially other universities, if these findings were valid and potentially challenging to the current regime.

Of course you can doubt the results replicated by Dr. Manuel Guzman of Complutense University, but I wouldn't.

If you've experienced acute opiate WD, I don't know why you prefer long term use of opiates to marijuana. Acute heroin withdrawal is true hell, and I am sure ultra low doses of naltrexone wouldn't save you from the inevitable. Lighter potency opiates might be less problematic than heroin of course, but the inevitable increase in tolerance typically makes opiate addiction/dependency an issue. Of course not everyone who uses opiates becomes physically addicted, but a high percentage do if you compare it to a non-physically addictive drug like marijuana.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

@arthunter... smoked marijuana STILL doesn't kill brain cells. Do a little research, buddy.

 

[DopaMan]

After years of Suboxone use I truly believe that the extremely small dose of naloxone that is being absorbed is definitely keeping tolerance at bay. I believe it is the only readily available opioid that can be used at a steady dose for long periods and still produce an effect (admittedly mild....but its better than the ever escalating pure mu agonist doses needed to get well.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I believe it is the only readily available opioid that can be used at a steady dose for long periods and still produce an effect (admittedly mild....but its better than the ever escalating pure mu agonist doses needed to get well.

I'm sure Subutex would have the same effect at the same doses, without needing to increase the dose. I obviously haven't tried Subutex but I expect that would be the case.

 

[arthunter888]

Yea, I've never fully withdrawn from opiates as I limit my use to twice a week (spread out), so the occasional opiate use leaves me feeling not bad after comedown. Even if I had withdrawn it would not sway my opinion b/c again, it's not an inherent effect of 'responsible' opiate use.

Now smoked cannabis on the other hand potentially turns me into a lazy, heavy-eyed zombie up to a couple days after using. Regardless of the fact that research says smoked cannabis is mostly non-toxic, even while agreeing I'm still convinced opiates are healthier (in terms of general bodily toxicity), simply because of the combustion chemicals. Without these cannabis would probably tie opiates IMO. Does anyone know if withdrawal produces (direct) toxic bodily effects?

But anyway back to subject:
^Suboxone has a small dose of naloxone, but subutex does not. If naloxone is the reason for tolerance prevention, then what is it in the subutex (if at all)?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Yea, I've never fully withdrawn from opiates as I limit my use to twice a week (spread out), so the occasional opiate use leaves me feeling not bad after comedown. Even if I had withdrawn it would not sway my opinion b/c again, it's not an inherent effect of 'responsible' opiate use.

I know what you mean, it's like a fishing hook you're caught onto you can't let go of. Even if you finish WD, the "bad taste" is still left in your mouth, and all your reasoning and logic will still be set aside if heroin is in the picture. At least that's how it was for me. I'm really glad I broke the cycle for myself. Honestly if you're having fun using opiates and it isn't ruining your life, I wouldn't stop using. It didn't "ruin" my life but it came close to it, so I had to stop.

Does anyone know if withdrawal produces (direct) toxic bodily effects?

If death is toxic but that's extremely rare, and is more indirect due to dehydration and malnutrition.

If you are taken care of while withdrawing you should be fine.

^Suboxone has a small dose of naloxone, but subutex does not. If naloxone is the reason for tolerance prevention, then what is it in the subutex (if at all)?

As long as buprenorphine does not fully agonize the mu subtype 2 opioid receptor, then exponentially skyrocketing physical tolerance is not as inevitable, as compared to true full agonists which agonize the mu subtype 2 opioid receptor.

This is why you can start off doing heroin, morphine, etc like a champ, then you need to use a lot more to get the same effects (once you're physically tolerant to the effects). This would be a side effects of the up-regulation of mu-opioid receptors.

Overall as long as you keep yourself hydrated, you eat and sleep as well as you can, and mentally stable during opiate WD, I can't imagine opiate WD being toxic to the body.

I hope that helped sum up your questions.

 

[picolax]

uld naltrexone

if you are trying to use uld naltrexone then proportionally splitting tablets will not give you a standard dose as there is NOT a equal distribution of the drug throughout the pill. To get true dosage in ULD you need to get a liquid dose but that is not available in UK. Oxytrex is a US combination of ULD naltrexone and oxycodone so far seems to decrease tolerance and reduce the amount of the drug needed. There is also a recent study that shows it decreases withdrawal time. Theoretically if you use the right dosage (which varies depending on body size and it needs to be taken 4 times daily to get best result) you wont get tolerant very quickly, if at all. Taking these thoughts further, you could possibly combine ULD with heroin for a much less addictive, and therefore much more socially palatable, drug.

 

[eazyeze]

V

3) If you take too much of an antagonist it'll not be as pretty as regular gett high.

Honestly the best way to prevent opiate tolerance is to not dose as frequently or often, and to cut back on the dose if you're losing the magic.

Very true captain heroin. The tuff part is remaining a low dose recreational user I imagine we all started that way but as you progress you take more and more often

 

[arthunter888]

if you are trying to use uld naltrexone then proportionally splitting tablets will not give you a standard dose as there is NOT a equal distribution of the drug throughout the pill.

This is something I never wanted to read. Is this true for ALL opiate pills? It would suck to find out that purchasing a milligram scale and going through all the hassle of weighing chunks/powder for every dose was a mute point.