So who likes benzos? El Benzo Threado Spectacularrrr 2nd Edition

[Jabberwocky]

you forgot end of my statement. i guess i should have signed off and said i do not condone it in anyway. happy?

sure, it killed cravings for me...all for about 15mins. it's not a healthy way to go about killing meth cravings but it does work, albeit very short term.

i don't recommend it, it is not a particulary healthy habit to stave of cravings, there are better ways to approach the situation

 

[tyrael]

Thing is I'm not disagreeing with you. Just the way Djsim's post was written made it sound like it was the answer to addiction rehab which is what I don't agree with. It's part of the solution.

 

[Jabberwocky]

yeah i forget some of you guys still do know how to pick up a sense of humour in here. that's dj's view on the matter and like i said it's neither her nor there; off topic

 

[helohihello]

here's something from djsim that helps explain re-developing tolerance

Originally Posted by djsim
Addiction progresses because of the acton of drugs on dopaminergic neural pathways which are normally associated with learning. Activation of these DA-ergic pathways has 2 physiological functions (from Kalivas 200:
1. to facilitate initial learning of adaptive responding to important stimuli
2. to cue the retrieval of the information needed to execute the adaptive behavioral response when environmental circumstances predict that food is imminent

What this means is DA is released only when a behavior is being learned, or a learned behaviour needs to be 'cued' from environmental triggers. Think of it this way; we all eat pretty much at the same time every day out of habit (a cue by the time of day). But now think of when you're really hungry... eating feels great because DA has been released to reinforce the fact that we must eat to live. In other words, DA is not often released under everyday conditions.

But because drugs of addiction activate DA pathways every time, and do so very efficiently, use of these drugs essentially hijacks the learning systems we have to its own ends so that now the brain has learned that boiling water in a spoon then filtering and injecting is a very important stimuli; why? Because copious amounts of DA were released.

So how does this all fit in I'm sure you're wondering...?
My point is that repeated dosing is the problem for addiction, NOT physical addiction to a substance. If it were about the physical WDs then people would easily be able to detox from H w/ an ultra-rapid naltrexone detox, not would coke/amphetamine/etc be addictive. So clearly the issue is your brain learning to like the act of getting high.

Whilst time off for a few weeks won't be able to disrupt this learning process there is a way which should work... make your drug use so unpredictable and widely spaced that your brain can make no predictions. So if you always dose every third weekend, change that so your brain doesn't start learning to associate weekends with good feelings, b/c from there it's not much of a stretch for your brain to justify more frequent use.

Afaik benzos don't have anything to do with DA pathways. Of course it could be a similar thing, just switch DA with GABA, but not really sure. Benzos seem to be a completely different type of addiction.

I've also noticed the re-developing tolerance thing.

I took Xanax for probly 1-2 years every day. Basically minimal tolerance, was at 2.5mg to feel relaxed. I didn't take any for 6 months and then just a couple every now and then for the next 6 months. Recently I took 1mg every day for a few days in a row and by the third day had to take 2.5mg to feel anything. Very weird. Thought it must have been just increased stress or something but appears not to be so.

If the increased GABA receptors is the problem, is there anything which could kill off some of the receptors or something? That sound so dumb lol But who knows, someone might no of some technique. Obviously quitting all use for a long time would work, since the receptors aren't being sued they just die off, which happens in all areas of the brain. Don't know how long that would take though.

 

[tyrael]

The point wasn't specific to benzos and their affect in the body, it was more that the act of drug prep affects the DA pathways and it is this which is "addiction". Well, that's how I read it.

 

[justsayknow]

Yeah I think djsim's stuff about the dopamine was more about the process of addiction rather than tolerance.

That said the more often you dose the less effect you get so being addicted can lead to tolerance.

 

[justsayknow]

What this means is DA is released only when a behavior is being learned, or a learned behaviour needs to be 'cued' from environmental triggers. Think of it this way; we all eat pretty much at the same time every day out of habit (a cue by the time of day). But now think of when you're really hungry... eating feels great because DA has been released to reinforce the fact that we must eat to live. In other words, DA is not often released under everyday conditions.

^This part is an interesting theory though. Could you take from this that if you have already learned something and you are doing it everyday you wont be releasing dopamine?

 

[Jabberwocky]

^well i know for sure as shit i still feel good after every shot/dose i have every day. depending on how long i wait between those doses is dependent on how good (and of course what drug, dose and ROA, etc) i feel as well.

The point wasn't specific to benzos and their affect in the body, it was more that the act of drug prep affects the DA pathways and it is this which is "addiction". Well, that's how I read it.

you're right, it wasn't specific to benzos. even if you crush your pill every morning and chug it down with a glass of OJ, your body is going to clue onto those cues.

Yeah I think djsim's stuff about the dopamine was more about the process of addiction rather than tolerance.

you're reading between the lines

here's a few interesting articles on dopamine and amino acids

1

IX. DOPAMINE

The primary monoamine neurotransmitters are dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin. Dopamine and norepinephrine are catecholeamines, whereas serotonin is an indolamine.

The amino acid tyrosine is not an essential amino acid because it can be synthesized in the liver from phenylalanine by the enzyme phenylalanine hydroxylase. But it cannot be synthesized in the brain, and therefore must enter the brain by the large neutral amino acid transporter, which also transports phenylalanine, tryptophan, methionine and the branch-chained amino acids. These amino acids all compete for the transporter, so a large quantity of one of the other amino acids in the blood stream could greatly limit the amount of tyrosine entering the brain. One case in which this occurs is when there is a liver deficiency of phenylalanine hydroxylase. In that case, Phenylalanine reaches high concentrations in the blood and monopolizes the large neutral amino acid transporter, producing the mental retardation of phenylketonuria.

Dopamine synthesis [Dopamine synthesis]

Once in the brain, tyrosine can be converted to DihydrOxyPhenylAlanine (DOPA) by the tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme using oxygen, iron and TetraHydroBiopterin (THB) as co-factors. High concentrations of dopamine inhibit tyrosine hydroxylase activity through an influence on the THB co-factor. DOPA is converted to dopamine by Aromatic Amino Acid Decarboxylase (which is fairly nonspecific insofar as it will decarboxylate any aromatic amino acid) using PyridoxaL Phosphate (PLP) as a co-factor. This reaction is virtually instantaneous unless there is a Vitamin B6 deficiency.

Dopamine & epinephrine are primarily inhibitory neurotransmitters that produce arousal. This may sound paradoxical, but the most likely explanation for this effect is that the postsynaptic cells for catecholamines themselves are inhibitory. There are 3-4 times more dopaminergic cells in the CNS than adrenergic cells. Dopamine in the caudate nucleus facilitates posture, whereas dopamine in the nucleus accumbens is associated with an animal's speed (and pleasure).
[dopamine receptors]

There are two primary dopamine receptor-types: D1 (stimulatory) and D2 (inhibitory), both of which act through G-proteins. D2 receptors often occur on the dopaminergic neurons, partially for the purpose of providing negative feedback. These so-called autoreceptors can inhibit both dopamine synthesis and release.

2 - Evidence for dopamine receptors on
GABA-releasing nerve terminals in rat nucleus
accumbens

 

[Pegasus]

With regard to djsim's post, I wonder what would happen if you had someone else dose you at a time when you were not aware it would happen?

 

[Jabberwocky]

haha now that would be a welcoming way to wake up, depending on what drug and ROA. if we're talking (and yes we are) about benzos, i'd love to wake up(err maybe not quite wake up) to an IV/IM of midazolam every morning and night just because.

you know about the different types of tolerances right BW? residual, environmental, etc?

well, for a fact, everytime i prep and shoot up at my friends house, even when using lower doses, i get a lot higher than i would at home and for longer too. same story with smoking weed around there on most ocassions. all my preparation cues are exactly the same, the environment is well known by me but because i shoot up at home 90% of the time i guess i drew the lucky straw on this one

so maybe throw in a few environmental factors and someone prepping you up unknowingly (not unwillingly) and you'd be able to avoid the dreaded plateau of not being able to get high off the same dose as always.

if only...

 

[Pegasus]

^Yeah, that's about what I'm thinking would happen. Still, I'm intrigued, and am thinking about getting someone to spike my drink unknowingly with something relatively tasteless and that I'm really experienced with like clonazepam or diazepam. If I end up doing it, I'll be sure to report back how it goes. It's gonna be in a different environment for sure if it happens.

you know about the different types of tolerances right BW? residual, environmental, etc?

I know of them, but not a lot about them, so if you would like to explain I'd love to read it.

 

[lil angel15]

^Yeah, that's about what I'm thinking would happen. Still, I'm intrigued, and am thinking about getting someone to spike my drink unknowingly with something relatively tasteless and that I'm really experienced with like clonazepam or diazepam.

Although set and setting is usually set aside for psychedelics, having someone spike yours, or anyone's, drink is irresponsible and potentially dangerous. There are so many variables involved in dosing any substance and when it's done unknowingly only increases the chances of a negative outcome.

Not a good idea guys!!!

 

[Pegasus]

^I'm sorry if I was unclear. I didn't mean to imply anything risky... I certainly would be against any risky behavior as well. I was simply trying to set up a scenario, and I certainly didn't mean to imply anything that would go against harm reduction. Looking back, I can see that I probably should have phrased that differently.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Although set and setting is usually set aside for psychedelics, having someone spike yours, or anyone's, drink is irresponsible and potentially dangerous. There are so many variables involved in dosing any substance and when it's done unknowingly only increases the chances of a negative outcome.

Not a good idea guys!!!

while leary coined the expression based around namely psyches, it applies to all psychoactives.

like BW, the way i worded my post was a little misleading. these are just hypothetical situations.

we're not exactly talking about dosing someone unbeknownst with a 1500mcg dose of lsd, just a small benzo dose. having a paradoxical effect to a benzo is pretty slim, though it can happen, more specifically with higher doses. and i acknowledge what you're saying lil, don't go spiking anyone's drink.

I know of them, but not a lot about them, so if you would like to explain I'd love to read it.

i've just been digging through OD for a post of mine, but i can't find it (hopefully wasn't pruned) butfound one where CH goes into a little discussion much the same as i had, just minus the environmental bit and some other stuff. it's a pretty broad subject. i'll keep trying to dig it up when i get back from church breakfast. btw that post is in the same thread as djsim's quote from above comes from.

 

[Pegasus]

^Aha, thanks for that. I never knew it was broken down that much, but now that I have seen it, it makes complete sense. So, would what you referred to as environmental be what CH called behavioral, or another type altogether?

Thanks for taking the time to explain this, BTW.

 

[tyrael]

^^^ Sorry to interject but maybe it'll be a good idea to create a whole new thread on the topic, seeing as it's not so benzo specific. I too would like to have a read of what you have to say leftwing!

 

[Jabberwocky]

^^^ Sorry to interject but maybe it'll be a good idea to create a whole new thread on the topic, seeing as it's not so benzo specific. I too would like to have a read of what you have to say leftwing!

don't be sorry, everyones invited.

dependence is relative to benzos, and a few people in here have shared how they're suffering from it so i'm just trying to give some information that's been relative to me.

i can't find what i've posted yet, but i've found a quote from sciendaily.com back in 2000 that explains what i was trying to say about me having a less of a tolerance around my friends place.

i know my home environment, well. i know prepping up in my home extremely well too, so i'm likely to feel lesser effects of the drugs; learned/behavioural/environmental tolerance. now i don't do this at my friends place, so i'm going to get higher from the same dose as i would take at home

So, would what you referred to as environmental be what CH called behavioral, or another type altogether?

yeah, sorry. it's just the lack of sleep i've had. learned, behavioural and environmental are all interchangeable.


here's the article, ive put it in nsfw tags for those who don't click off site

NSFW:

Environment Contributes To Drug Tolerance

ScienceDaily (Oct. 12, 2000) — COLLEGE STATION - Tolerance is a major aspect of drug addiction, and one Texas A&M University psychologist believes the setting in which drugs are taken can be just as big a contributor to developing a tolerance as the drugs themselves.

For more than a decade, Texas A&M psychologist Antonio Cepeda-Benito has studied how learning facilitates the development of tolerance, and he says the environment in which a drug is consumed plays a large role in the drug's effects.

"If the same amount of a drug is administered in one context and later in another different and distinct context, then the effects of the drug are different," Cepeda-Benito says. "The drug has a much greater effect in a novel context rather than in a context that is associated with the administered drug."

Cepeda-Benito, who has studied morphine and nicotine's effects, terms this phenomenon "learned tolerance," and says gradual desensitization to a drug can be developed not only by repeated use of the drug, but also through a learning process that involves recognizing the environment.

In other words, a person consuming a drug in a setting where he or she usually consumes the drug or even expects to consume it will be less likely to feel the full effects of the drug, he says. However, if that same person takes the same amount of the drug in a setting where he or she doesn't normally take the drug, then the person is likely to feel a greater effect from the drug.

He says a familiar context can mean any familiar environment and/or actions, as well as timing. He also notes that the longer the interval between episodes, the greater the chance is of developing a learned tolerance.

Cepeda-Benito says this could possibly explain some drug overdoses in which the person didn't take a greater amount of the drug, but instead, took the drug in an unfamiliar setting, making the term "overdose" a misnomer.

"These are physiological changes mediated by psychological aspects," he says.

Much like a butcher working in a meat freezer who isn't affected by the cold while at work but can feel cold at home, Cepeda-Benito says, the body, over time, begins to prepare itself, through learning, for the environment it is used to consuming the drugs in, resulting in a lessening of the drug's effects.

"This is important because we know that tolerance is a symptom of drug dependence, and when you become tolerant to a drug, then you need to take more of the drug to get the effect you want," Cepeda-Benito says. "The more of the drug you take, the more physiologically dependent you become."

 

[Tunnelfission]

Benzos are great, until i realize i forgot my whole night and im puking at even the thought of any movemnt

 

[Scoliosis]

Benzo are beautiful.

They have helped me with my anxiety + sleep at night.

I also enjoy them with a beer or 2 however CAUTION that only veterans and tolerable stomachs mess with them. I have my very own horror story & a lifelong friend also does ... basically involves black out and not remembering what happended. Not good.

 

[Pegasus]

Wow, LW... I didn't expect it to be so black-and-white like that.

Much like a butcher working in a meat freezer who isn't affected by the cold while at work but can feel cold at home, Cepeda-Benito says, the body, over time, begins to prepare itself, through learning, for the environment it is used to consuming the drugs in, resulting in a lessening of the drug's effects.

It seems so obvious when I think of it like that, though... Ya learn something new every day, huh?