Question About Administering IV Heroin to an Opiate Naive Friend

[daddysgone]

Hi,
I have a very close friend who has always held the belief that he wants to "try everything in life". This applies to all types of things, including drugs. He does not have any sort of drug habit, though he has tried most drugs.

He decided that he wanted to experience heroin, and wanted to get the "full effect", and for him, that meant shooting it. I explained that it would be wiser for him to snort it the first time since he's completely opiate-naive, but he had made up his mind.

So, several months ago, I agreed to help him with this. For the record, I live in new york city, and the heroin comes in stamped bags, each containing approx. 100mg of very high quality tan, powdered heroin.

So a few months ago, I got us some, and was very nervous about giving him too much, so I was extremely cautious with the dose I gave him. I ended up putting about 1/6th of 1 bag in the rig and shot him up with it. After a few seconds he said, "wow that feels real nice", and he enjoyed the high for the next several hours. He never got sick or even felt remotely nauseous.

So now, several months later, he mentioned that he feels that he didn't really get to experience the "full effects" from the heroin since I was so cautious in my dosing. So, he wants to try it 1 more time, but wants me to give him a heftier dose. He says he does not care if he pukes or feels sick, he just wants to have a strong experience, but obviously not have any sort of OD.

So, Im really stuck regarding how much I should load up for him. I know its pretty impossible for people here to advise what dose to give him since its a street drug of unknown purity, but in order to answer my question, lets assume the following.

1-The bag contains 100mg
2-It is tan, east coast powder and the typical high quality dope that is so prevelant in the NY/NJ area.
3-My friend is 165 pounds

Keeping in mind he has NO tolerance, is it possible that a half of one of these bags could actually cause a serious OD? Obviously anything is possible, but would half a bag administered via IV to an opiate naive person almost certainly be safe, or is there a very real chance that this would be too much and could actually cause an OD.

Any help or advice on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks-DG

 

[MarkRenton]

Honestly I think he could handle a whole bag, I know that's how much I did the first time I shot and I had no problems. If you want to be super careful go for half the bag, I can't see him ODing on it.

 

[daddysgone]

Honestly I think he could handle a whole bag, I know that's how much I did the first time I shot and I had no problems. If you want to be super careful go for half the bag, I can't see him ODing on it.

Really? A whole bag? I would have thought that a whole bag of high quality east coast powder given IV to an opiate naive person would be too much. I dont think Id feel safe giving him that much, but perhaps half a bag.

Im basically just trying to figure out if a half a bag given IV is almost certainly safe to give to an opiate naive person, or if half a bag could very possibly be dangerous.-DG

 

[Shambles]

There's no way on earth I'd give anybody with no tolerance that much gear - even half a bag would be pushing it. I wouldn't go beyond 1/4 bag if it's decent gear and even then I'd be shitting myself the whole time he was under the influence. I really don't like shooting noobs

 

[daddysgone]

Thanks for the replies. I also wanted to ask one other quick question.

So, lets assume I administer my friend one IV shot and it contains half a bag:
If an OD were to occur, would it basically happen as soon as I injected him, or is it possible for the OD to occur later in the evening?

Essentially what Im trying to figure out is, if I give him the IV shot, and he doesn't immediately drop or turn blue, is he now basically "in the clear", or is it completely possible for someone to take a shot, appear fine, and then an hour later suffer an OD due to respiratory depression?-DG

 

[sixpartseven]

Terrible idea. If he must do it, have him snort half a bag or less first and work his way up in small increments. He shouldn't IV unless it was a last resort to save money while addicted.

There's a good chance you will kill him if he does it now.

 

[socio]

OD can happy immediately, but it can also happen HOURS later. I read somewhere (no reference) that the median time to OD (i.e. time between administration and ER admission) was several hours with INJECTED heroin.

If you have suboxone, or better yet Narcan, on hand, that might make things safer, but might also give you a false sense of security. In my opinion, it is very IMPORTANT to call 9-1-1 if someone stops responding.

Also, I think it sounds very dangerous to give an entire bag to a neophyte. Even half a bag sounds like too much to IV. I don't think you need anything like that if the dope is decent. Daily users/addicts can oftentimes get a rush off 1/2 - 1 bag.

If he got off on 1/6 of a bag last time, that's the proper dose. Maybe 1/4 or 1/3 TOPS. But this is very dangerous.

It sounds like he is seeking a destructive experience, the opposite of harm reduction!:

does not care if he pukes or feels sick, he just wants to have a strong experience

How does he know he didn't get the "full effects" if it was his first time? If it feels good, those are the full effects!

By the way, you can also try IM/SC after the initial IV dose (for a "rush")... I'm not sure if that's safer or more dangerous (since it will take a few minutes to kick in). Any thoughts?

 

[daddysgone]

Terrible idea. If he must do it, have him snort half a bag or less first and work his way up in small increments. He shouldn't IV unless it was a last resort to save money while addicted.

There's a good chance you will kill him if he does it now.

Wow...quite a statement- "there's a good chance you will kill him if he does it now".

May I ask why u feel so strongly that this would lead to death? Obviously the point of my making this thread was to try to establish a dosage that would be low enough to make an OD virtually impossible. Im not sure if u read my original post, but I already did give him an IV dose several months ago, and used about 1/6th of an east coast stamp bag.
Unfortunately, he felt like the didnt get the "full experience", and now want to try it again with a larger dose.

I understand your concern, and agree that he should not shoot it since he is completely opiate naive. The problem is that he has clearly made up his mind, and will almost certainly try it on his own if I refuse to help. He will be MUCH safer if I am there to help and oversee things, then if he were to just go off half-cocked on his own, with relatively no knowledge on the subject.

So, where Im at now is trying to ascertain the safety of giving him half of a NY stamp bag of high quality powder. Obviously there are many variables, but generally speaking, would this dosage be extremely unlikely to cause a dangerous OD in an opiate naive adult?-DG

 

[sixpartseven]

Because there is no way to establish a dosage that will be safe. Heroin always varies in purity, so what one person says is a safe dose for their batch may be a dangerous dose for yours, or in your case, the heroin you gave him previously may be much less potent than the heroin you have now.

Also, an OD will not happen hours later with IV heroin. If you want to make claims like that, you really need to back them up with legit sources. IV heroin metabolizes faster and the risk for OD drops significantly after the first hour, at the most.

He can get the "full experience" without IVing it. The rush is not necessary to enjoy a heroin high, and IMO, the heroin high from snorting is better (more relaxing, lasts longer) than an IV heroin high (only benefit is the rush)

If he insists on shooting it, have him take 1/3rd of a dose that he can safely snort (of the same batch of heroin)

 

[MarkRenton]

All I'm saying is your friend is going to keep coming back asking you for a "real" experience if you give him just little hits. A whole bag might be too much sure, but it's not a crazy thought, it will give him exactly what he is looking for and it most likely won't kill him (but that's the risk you take every time doing heroin any ROA). You're going to give him half a bag and he's going to probably be like well that was nice but I want a real experience with a whole bag..it's a cycle I'd suggest not to do it at all to him if you want the truth but since you feel you "have" to give him half a bag and go from there.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Terrible idea. If he must do it, have him snort half a bag or less first and work his way up in small increments. He shouldn't IV unless it was a last resort to save money while addicted.

There's a good chance you will kill him if he does it now.

Yeah I'd say let your friend start with snorting 1/3 to 1/2 of the bag, get to the point where snorting 1/2 of a bag isn't too intense or is less than intense than desired before you try IVing it IMO.

 

[Oxymorphone]

Get yourself a shot of nalaxone ready... Seriously though I really don't think a whole bag is pushing it that much for a first time user unless it is some 99% pure shit and if you're getting that in NYC, well, I wish I had your source. Most of the NYC shit is meh unless you have a good source and one or even two bags would be fine for someone with no tolerance. I would stick to 1 and if you are nervous divide it into two shots and if one isn't enough shoot the other half. 1/6 is very conservative.

 

[socio]

Also, an OD will not happen hours later with IV heroin. If you want to make claims like that, you really need to back them up with legit sources. IV heroin metabolizes faster and the risk for OD drops significantly after the first hour, at the most.

Thanks for bringing this up 6/7... I used to think that, too. I don't remember what my source for the claim above was, but I googled "heroin overdose" and found this on the first page of results. Apparently at least a considerable proprtion of fatal overdoses happen more than 2 or 3 hours after the last injection. (I think I had previously read a figure for non-fatal ODs, which I recall as being even longer, though I won't stand firm on this point.)

Here's the quote:

Darke, Shane and Zador, Deborah, "Fatal Heroin 'Overdose': A Review." Addiction. 1996; 91(12): pp. 1765-1772.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/darke2.cfm
Another variable of interest, the interval of time between the final injection of heroin and death, has been estimated in several studies (Garriot & Sturner, 1973; Monforte, 1977; Nakamura, 1978; Manning et al., 1983; Zador et al., 1996). Instant death following heroin administration does not appear to be the norm. Manning et al. (1983) reported that only 23% of cases collapsed immediately after injection. Only 14% of cases in the study by Zador et al. (1996) were classified as instant, with 22% estimated to have died over a period of time longer than 3 hours. An interval of more than 3 hours was reported in over half (52%) of cases studied by Garriot & Sturner (1973), while Nakamura (1978) reported 44% of cases having an interval of greater than 2 hours. Although figures were not given, Monforte (1977) also commented that instant deaths in the cases he examined appeared rare. The fact that most heroin-related fatalities appear to occur over a period of time presents an important opportunity for intervention...

I think this is an important point, since a lot of people assume that if someone doesn't fall out immediately they won't die. Not true....

 

[lazylazyjoe]

When I first started heroin, I had no tolerance at all. I had tried a 5mg percocet before, but only once or twice- and those knocked me on my ass. Since I refused to snort anything, I injected. I found that 1/2 bag worked great. I got a good dose of euphoria, but I didn't come close to an od. If I did a whole bag, it was too much and made me feel horrible, still nothing near an od though. Those were White House bags, and weren't as good as some of the new stamps that are floating around now. So, I'd say that for a 5/10 bag, no more than 1/2 bag should be given and you'll be fine. Just don't let him dose on consecutive days, and don't let him increase from that 1/2 bag dose and he'll never have a problem.
Also, if he trulely wants the experience, snorting isn't the way to go. The drip ruins the whole thing and has made me puke from the taste on the few occassions I was desperate and couldn't find a needle.. As long as you follow the two bits of advice I gave, he'll be fine. He's no more likely to get out of hand injecting, than snorting. Once you have a taste for heroin, you want it- not matter the roa.
But, to be on the safe side, keep some naloxone or suboxone on hand and brush up on your CPR.
EDIT
My one friend OD'd at my house. It had been a little while after herlast injection that we noticed her not breathing. But, she had injected multiple times over the night. I think that with a single small injection, you'll be able to tell if there's any trouble fairly soon. Just plan on spending the night with him, and that takes care of that anyway.

 

[Z Y G G Y]

Sounds like he is getting a taste for it. U already gave him the experience...what if he asks u the third time? I never had problems with drugs until I picked up heroin. I'd wash my hands of this situation if I were u. He might end up dead and his family might sue ur ass for providing him the drugs. U seem like a really nice and well put together guy. I'd hate to see u in any kind of a bad situation cuz of this and this is a situation in which bad things might happen. Really? Is his second heroin experience really worth ur possible freedom, not even talking about his death, just talking about what might happen to u if something goes wrong. It's gonna be on u.

Sorry, don't want to sound condescending, not my goal. U just seem like a nice person and had to say this in case u didn't think of it.

 

[lazylazyjoe]

^I disagree.
If this kids wants some, he's gonna go find it. Better it be from a friend who will not rip him off and will supervise so there's no mishap. Plus, he won't have to go trollin' in the hood to go find a connect. That can be dangerous.
I see no guilt in helping people do what they want to do. It''s his decision. You don't have to answer to his family. They can hate you, all they want, as long as he doesn't die(which won't happen, because you'll be there for him), there's nothing they can do.
<off topic rant>
People all think that heroin will kill you, but it's the easiest od the fix. Look at the safe injection site in Vancouver. They've had over 1,000 overdoses there, and not a single death. Not 1. These are the types of results you get with proper harm reduction. Basicly, what America is saying by not having these is they would rather see junkies die, then be safe.

 

[morphonorconic]

The idea that first comes to my mind would be to glance over some conversion charts, after having tested the product yourself, and as an experienced user, make a judgement of the quality of the powder. Then, find a sort of mean average equivalent in terms of Oxycodone or Vicodin or Morphine, or a familiar pharmaceutical Opiate, of which you could base a reasonable enough comparison.

 

[sixpartseven]

Thanks for bringing this up 6/7... I used to think that, too. I don't remember what my source for the claim above was, but I googled "heroin overdose" and found this on the first page of results. Apparently at least a considerable proprtion of fatal overdoses happen more than 2 or 3 hours after the last injection. (I think I had previously read a figure for non-fatal ODs, which I recall as being even longer, though I won't stand firm on this point.)

Here's the quote:

I think this is an important point, since a lot of people assume that if someone doesn't fall out immediately they won't die. Not true....

I think what you quoted includes people who stop breathing while nodding or sleeping later on during the high. If you stay awake and alert, that won't happen. An OD doesn't always imply being knocked out; an OD is just taking more than you normally do/more than suggested. It's possible to OD and be fine for a few hours, but later on die from respiratory depression while asleep or by choking on vomit or whatever. Your study is not saying that people are spontaneously dying hours later. It's saying that death caused by ODing occurs much later, but all those deaths could be avoided if the person ODing stays awake/alert.

What I meant is if in the first few minutes you don't uncontrollably lose consciousness, then it's not going to spontaneously happen later on. It's just not possible.

 

[WSB15]

A lot of people have this idea that they can try everything once and be fine, they've got way too much self-control to ever get addicted. I was that way. I tried tons of drugs, never had problem except for opiates. If I were you I'd tell him that some people can do them recreationally, a lot of people can't.

I'd say this is pretty sketchy mostly because no one on BL is going to be able to say what a good dose is exactly since bags of H can really vary in potency. Even a tiny amount too much could send someone with zero tolerance over the limit. Tell him to try snorting an OC instead. If he ODs on scag you got for him you're in a world of shit, so I just don't see how this is even remotely a good idea for you. Seems like you have a lot to lose but nothing to gain.

 

[SlayerAus]

bluelight is about harm minimisation, giving advice saying he can handle 1 bag is ridiculous. You can always take more opiates if youre not where u want to be, once u've had to much you cant take it back.