Accept the facts – and end this futile 'war on drugs'

ItIsntJustAboutYou said:
I have never been hurt or lost anyone to drugs. I know a couple of alcoholics. I know people that I care about that have made bad choices (in my opinion) and used some dangerous stuff in dangerous ways. But haven't been hurt by their use.

There is a big difference between saying that a shirt I bought may have been made in a sweat shop and someone that uses cocaine. The main differences are, if someone said, "That shirt you bought was made in a sweat shop by people who are subjected to horrible working conditions", I would never ever by that brand of clothing ever again. I am no different. I have no right to do anything or cause harm to other people, and I strive daily to make sure that I do that at least.

But cocaine for example, because its illegal everywhere, it would be hard to argue that there isn't a very strong possibility that it came from a place where people are put through pain and suffering so cartels can make money. Yet, people knowing this continue to use. It isn't fair. They have no right because it negatively effects people that don't deserve it

The other main difference here is that while I may not have needed "that specific shirt" I reference above but I do need shirts. Nobody needs cocaine, except for those addicted.

Also, I am not just talking about farmers. I am talking about all the innocent people that get caught up in all the bullshit going on and end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And sure, one user who quits using isn't going to stop anything from happening the way that it does. If they did however, they very rightly could say, I no longer knowingly contribute to the pain and suffering.

Just because there are so many people out there involved in the illegal drug trade as producers and consumers, doesn't mean that each person involved isn't contributing just a little bit to the pain and suffering of others. Just because things won't change if one person stops it doesn't mean that if that one person stopped that single act didn't have merit and/or virtue.

I honestly don't know how anyone who uses cocaine or heroin can possibly go through life without an extremely guilty conscience.

I live in a city where there are a lot of homeless people. When I go out of my way to make sure a homeless person gets a meal, I know it isn't going to end homelessness for the city I live in, and mostly likely won't for the single person that I helped. Despite all this, it doesn't mean that I didn't do the right thing. I am not saying this looking for praise or martyrdom, I am saying it because a single persons action whether or not it changes anything at all still holds merit if it is good and true.

Lots of people have that opportunity and all it would cost them is not being able to get high on drugs like cocaine and heroin. That really isn't asking for much is it?
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I'm guessing you don't use any petroleum based products, because you don't want to fund terrorists. I think that if you actually live what you preach in all aspects of your life that you are an admirable man. On the other hand if you do have a vehicle that runs on gasoline and you choose to stop using it because the gas you use funds terrorism then PM me and I'll take it off your hands.



-Loki
 
"The proponents of the "war on drugs" are well-intentioned people who believe they are saving people from the nightmare of drug addiction and making the world safer."

the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 
a wonderful documentary to watch that will expound upon the devious and profit-driven motives of political prohibitionists is american drug war: last white hope. you will be shocked.
 
3 Certainties in Life

The U.S. 'war' on drugs is an abysmal failure. My prediction is that sooner rather than later (6-12 months) cannabis will be put to vote on it's legality based on a state by state basis. The only people that seem to be against it are the crook alcohol/tobacco lobbyists that pay hundreds of millions of dollars per year to keep cannabis illegal. I'm by no means a pothead but I see the egregious contradiction in legalizing alcohol, a poison that if were discovered today would no doubt be schedule I substance with no medical use. Cigarettes, which everyone knows are responsible for a plethora of noxious health consequences when one becomes a 'regular' smoker, cause HMOs more $$$ per year than any other single entity.
Ultimately, the only solution to solve the worldwide drug epidemic is to legalize, which besides sending shivers down the spines of all those who are fortunate to live in LaLa-Land, is what economist Milton Freeman said way back in the 1970's. THE PROBLEM WILL NEVER BE SOLVED ON THE SUPPLY SIDE. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that there are three certainties in life; death, taxes, and people are going to get high. They may not use chemicals to get high, but they will repeat unhealthy behaviors that in themselves become destructive addictions (gambling, shopping, sex, working too hard for $$$, eating, internet porn, etc. Humans are wired to repeat pleasurable experiences and that's b/c there's survival value. It's easy to say but the key is balance; either maintain equilibrium or pay the piper (I'm referring to dangerous drugs like crack, smack, meth, x, benzos...the one's that have the potential to turn your world on its' head and ruin lives). I've looked at this shit from every angle possible and I just think with our economy hanging on by a thread and our National debt exploding every day, it's irresponsible for Americans not to first amend cannabis laws... PeAce
 
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mindovermatter79 said:
The thing is, this isn't just a cocaine/heroin discussion website, there are a lot of illicit substances out there being used, both irresponsibly and not. What I take issue with is your generalizations and assumption that those reading your posts are lowlife users only interested in their next fix addicted to Y and Z.

I've never tried Cocaine or Heroin so I have no point of reference as to the appeal, and I don't believe I know anyone who uses either of those substances currently. Regardless, I don't consider myself in a position to judge why the high is important to them, how they prioritize their values, or if they're even aware or have given consideration to the production and distribution. It's kinda like most people and the food they consume; most would probably be horrified or at the minimum disturbed/disgusted at how meat makes it to their table, and many vegetarians and vegans would make a similar, "How can you live with yourself?" argument.

I think you'd be better off going the way of education, rather than judgement. "Hey, did you know that production of Y and Z drugs impacts countries, communities, children, the environment, etc. [this] way? What are your thoughts on that and what can consumers of these products who want to live more ethically do to make a difference?" Demonizing and judgement won't convince someone to listen to your line of reasoning anymore than a protester with a grotesque fetus picture shouting at a woman entering a health clinic is likely to change her mind; people have their lives and their reasons. If you go in guns-a-blazing you're just going to make people defensive, and the moment they see you as an enemy they'll stop listening.

Sometimes the best we can do is make things safer. And, like abortion "safe and legal" is the more logical way to go. Regulation, not prohibition.
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True that
 
Respectfully disagree

ItIsntJustAboutYou said:
Always love this about users. They go back to their age old argument, "alcohol is a drug too".

Great. Fine. Alcohol is a drug used for social/recreational purposes. Are we done?

The difference is that NOW, TODAY, most other drugs aren't (depending on where in the world we are).

So, sure, maybe the model that we have for alcohol is a great one that can or could be applied to other drugs.

However, that is NOT how the world works TODAY, so, quit talking about alcohol.

The facts are that many illegal drugs cause lots of pain and anguish for lots of people, and there are clearly many selfish apathetic people out there that don't mind getting high even if people elsewhere suffer because of it.

If its so important to you guys to take drugs, why not switch to alcohol. You can get plenty effed up on alcohol, and you won't have to worry that people are dying in 3rd world countries, just so that you could catch a buzz.

I wonder, for example, how many people in the US (where I live) would still do coke, if it meant that their loved ones (or they themselves) had to live Juarez, Mexico, or Meddellin, Columbia?
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Telling folks to just switch to alcohol b/c it's legal and it will get you plenty 'effed up' is a complete farce. It's as shortsighted as telling a guy who is in love with female X, who happens to be blond, to just go ahead and start a relationship with female Y b/c she too has blond hair and kinda looks like female X. You're completely underestimating the fact that everybody is wired differently and no two people have the exact same reaction to any drug. I don't dispute the fact that you believe drugs cause tremendous suffering and pain because you're right, they do. But the genie is out of the bottle and more and more people in Central/South America are going to manufacture 'dope' if it means feeding their families. And yes, if that hypothetical of having your wife swapped to Medellin in order to keep using, a scary majority would send their loved one packing if it was the only way they could keep getting high, assuming their frontal lobe wasn't calling the shots anymore and their limbic system was in the drivers seat.
 
ItIsntJustAboutYou said:
I have never been hurt or lost anyone to drugs. I know a couple of alcoholics. I know people that I care about that have made bad choices (in my opinion) and used some dangerous stuff in dangerous ways. But haven't been hurt by their use.

There is a big difference between saying that a shirt I bought may have been made in a sweat shop and someone that uses cocaine. The main differences are, if someone said, "That shirt you bought was made in a sweat shop by people who are subjected to horrible working conditions", I would never ever by that brand of clothing ever again. I am no different. I have no right to do anything or cause harm to other people, and I strive daily to make sure that I do that at least.

But cocaine for example, because its illegal everywhere, it would be hard to argue that there isn't a very strong possibility that it came from a place where people are put through pain and suffering so cartels can make money. Yet, people knowing this continue to use. It isn't fair. They have no right because it negatively effects people that don't deserve it

The other main difference here is that while I may not have needed "that specific shirt" I reference above but I do need shirts. Nobody needs cocaine, except for those addicted.

Also, I am not just talking about farmers. I am talking about all the innocent people that get caught up in all the bullshit going on and end up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

And sure, one user who quits using isn't going to stop anything from happening the way that it does. If they did however, they very rightly could say, I no longer knowingly contribute to the pain and suffering.

Just because there are so many people out there involved in the illegal drug trade as producers and consumers, doesn't mean that each person involved isn't contributing just a little bit to the pain and suffering of others. Just because things won't change if one person stops it doesn't mean that if that one person stopped that single act didn't have merit and/or virtue.

I honestly don't know how anyone who uses cocaine or heroin can possibly go through life without an extremely guilty conscience.

I live in a city where there are a lot of homeless people. When I go out of my way to make sure a homeless person gets a meal, I know it isn't going to end homelessness for the city I live in, and mostly likely won't for the single person that I helped. Despite all this, it doesn't mean that I didn't do the right thing. I am not saying this looking for praise or martyrdom, I am saying it because a single persons action whether or not it changes anything at all still holds merit if it is good and true.

Lots of people have that opportunity and all it would cost them is not being able to get high on drugs like cocaine and heroin. That really isn't asking for much is it?
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Your argument is based on your wrong assumption that every coca farmer is a mistreated peasant who will be whipped to death at the hand of a drug kingpin. I recently saw a documentary on cocaine production, and it showed a coca farmer in Columbia who made his living from what you believe is such a great evil. He discussed the prospect of farming something else, like bananas - he said it was stupid to grow bananas which sell for practically nothing and can't be traded for other goods. Needless to say, he'd be screwed without cocaine use in the more developed nations.

Besides, you do realise that there'd be no cartels or impoverished farmers without prohibition, right? To think that any ban of drugs is going to eliminate them is simply ignorant.

(Foot note: I've never used cocaine or heroin, but then again I'm not a self righteous twat who thinks they can tell other people what to do with their own bodies)
 
It's one thing to boycott shoes or t-shirts, but people don't die to get a t-shrit, people don't risk their freedom and their lives to get a pair of Nike shoes. Doesn't that suggest to you something about the human relationship with drugs? Simply because one isn't addicted doesn't mean the choice is as simple as to not take drugs.

Gambling is a vice industry that puts millions into suffering, yet as someone who isn't a gambling addict, am I contributing to the suffering of others by buying a lotto ticket?

I don't believe that cause and effect are so black and white, nor do I believe that I have the right to judge others as ItIsntJustAboutYou can do so easily. I'm not saying that I'm in denial about my own possible complicity in the suffering of others, but why am I to blame for the unjust laws that have created this situation?

The trade in illicit drugs provides funds for groups that commit atrocious acts against other human beings; people trafficking, extortion and even murder. Yet it is government, more than any other individual or organisation on this planet who can change this, and do so instantly by ending the war on drugs. Also, what responsibility falls on the shoulders of people who are committing these crimes? They have free will and a choice, just like we do.

We live in complex societies and every day we buy or take part in things without a comprehensive understanding of the flow-on effects. It doesn't mean we are bad people, and even if it does, no offence but it's not your place to judge us. If we were to try and extrapolate every consequence of every action we take, we'd likely curl up into a ball and never leave the house again for fear of doing something, buying something or saying something that could lead to unnecessary suffering.

Also, some of us believe that the war on drugs is in itself unjust. Men like Thoreau who came up with civil disobedience suggested that where the law was unjust, we have a duty to break it. You might find this something of a stretch, but drug taking is in it's own way subversive and an act of defiance against unfair principles. I'm sure the people who went on strike for Indian independence or sat down for American Civil Rights were also told that their actions were hurting others, hurting their countrymen or causing suffering for others.

I'm not trying to say that drug taking is noble or political for the most part, because I do realise it is often a selfish undertaking, but don't forget that these motivations exist and that they drive some of us.

Ultimately, it is up to every individual to ask themselves about their place in this world and what their individual contribution is, just as it is for us to live with those decisions.
 
When blunts are censored during a 2 am showing of Soul Plane on BET, you know the war on drugs has gone too far. (C'mon! Aren't you simply drawing more attention to the taboo, thereby providing it with the cache you're so terrified of, FCC? LAME.)
 
Dr Links said:
Telling folks to just switch to alcohol b/c it's legal and it will get you plenty 'effed up' is a complete farce. It's as shortsighted as telling a guy who is in love with female X, who happens to be blond, to just go ahead and start a relationship with female Y b/c she too has blond hair and kinda looks like female X. You're completely underestimating the fact that everybody is wired differently and no two people have the exact same reaction to any drug. I don't dispute the fact that you believe drugs cause tremendous suffering and pain because you're right, they do. But the genie is out of the bottle and more and more people in Central/South America are going to manufacture 'dope' if it means feeding their families. And yes, if that hypothetical of having your wife swapped to Medellin in order to keep using, a scary majority would send their loved one packing if it was the only way they could keep getting high, assuming their frontal lobe wasn't calling the shots anymore and their limbic system was in the drivers seat.
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not to mention drugs besides alcohol can do a lot more beautiful things than "get you effed up". but prohibitionists would not believe such a fact (it's a fact to me at least, from my personal experience. too bad the gift needs to be experienced to be imparted)
 
The simple fact of the matter is this, no administration has the right to tell people what they can and can't put inside of their body. It is the most intimate part of your civil liberties and people want to take that away from you, it's just sickening.
 
In its' present form, unfortunately, government owns our bodies. I really enjoyed hoptis' post, because it is an issue that I feel so strongly about. It is one of our most basic of civil liberties, and has become a farce.

I would thoroughly enjoy such a piece on mainstream programming - tv and newspaper primarily - that would effectively show the U.S. population the reason behind so much violence in our world today. But people are too short-sighted.

My own girlfriend had issues with this. When confronted with this same argument, her response was that if drugs were readily available in your corner store, just as cigarettes and alcohol are, that society would almost collapse, because of all of the addicts roaming amongst us.

People think it is better to control the potential for harm, than to put an end to violence. Granted, stopping the War on Drugs will not instantly put an end to violence, but it will show a significant decrease.
 
I have been trying to get a methadone clinic in bellingham its like talking a wall but now I have printed this awsome article and I am planning many copies to hand out to doctors , psyciatrists and in time i will think of many more thanks for the help phrozen.By the way I am one of the poor fools that has spent time in the usa-s gulag for sales just to supply my little habit. poppy fields forever thanks man.
 
to isntitjustaboutyou, you obviously are not a drug user or you are like elvis and its all ok to get it from your doctor, you also must not understand the awsome article phrozen has written.I have been an opiate addict since age 19 mental illness is prevalent in my family dad and his brother both suicide in 2003-4 I have been trying anti-depressants for 20 years doctors hand them out like candy,people think they are not addictive oh contrare try taking paxil and some of the others for a year and then stop because they are not helping depression at all ,you go into withdrawal not the same as opiates but not pleasant at all. I have found that opiates not all just some give me 80% relief from anxiety and depression.If I could get it from a doctor life would change or if there was even a damn methadone clinic in bellingham wash I would be on it never messing with H and having to buy on the street or sell and go to prison 3 times my life has been wasted by not opiates hell if I could just grow poppies in my yard in quantity the tea makes life much better but no our insane drug laws have completly taken my life, I used to be a hard working self sufficient man owned own home cars boats 4 wheeler great girl its all gone not because of a simple poppy plant but because of our drug laws my doctor that tells me if he still had his practice he had years ago he could and would no problem give me what makes my life ok and enjoyable but he says sorry our drug laws could get me in a lot of trouble if I gave if to you.My grandfather was an alcoholic for life he drank a fifth of wiskey a day he raised a family of 5 kids he had a great job all his life he lived to 76 and died in his sleep I will admit he did get some dwi-s and payed for it he luckily never hurt anyone. Now had I been able to go to a store and buy my drug of choice do you think my life would have turned out the same I dont think so and I just used an important word ( choice ) humans should have the choice to do anything they disire as long as it does not physically hurt others and you are correct about buying drugs on the street may cause harm to others and that is exactly why you are wrong to be a prohibitionist our laws need to change and they will not in my lifetime ,my docotor tells me if only you were born a hundred years ago or from now I say ya its to bad .
 
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