The different ways heroin and aphetamines affect dopamine receptors?

[Harambulus]

I was quite surprised when my friend told my that heroin also affects the dopamine receptors in causing its effects.

I was also surprised when I found out that psychedelics also affect the seratonin receptors.

My surprise was just due to my thinking that E's get you high through acting on serotonin, speed gets you high through acting on dopamine. I had no idea how these other chemicals worked really as I hadn't taken much of an interest in them.

So finding out these other chemicals also affect these same receptors but have wildly different effects was quite intriguing to me.

I'm particularly interested in why heroin has the opposite effect to most other dopamine acting drugs. Other things like coke, crack and coffee all produce stimulant effects however it is commonly known that heroin has a sedative effect, yet it's still acting on the dopamine receptors, why is this? I haven't tried it but am intrigued by this difference in effect due to the others having similar effects.

Also for those who have tried it or know people who have first hand...is the 'high' feeling similar to that of speed? I mean aside from the 'speedy' properties I know when I used to take speed one of the most pleasant notable effects after first having ingested it was this warm cotton wool like sensation which slowly emanated through my whole body similar to the effect that heroin use talk. This feeling would fade out to be replaced by the more 'buzzed up' sensation but that initial effect after ingestion was what I really enjoyed. I wasn't so much a fan of its 'tweaking' aspects but more of that fucking content and ultra confident sensation it gave me. I'm interested to know if heroin produces that effect but perhaps moreso? Then I could understand or get an idea of the sensation. Most literature I've read on it is form academic sources on youtube or reading the net etc. and obviously they haven;t actually tried it. Other documentaries speaking to junkies have just been vague as to it's feeling qualities of the drug- 1000 orgasms...really content etc. nothing THAT descriptive.

So hope some of you can shed some light on these queries.

Cheers.

 

[daddysgone]

Actually, for many people (myself included), low to moderate doses of opiates produce an energetic feeling. It is only at higher doses that the "depressant" aspect of opiates pop up.
If you read reports from many people from when they first started taking something like oxy, you will often see things like, "I spent the whole day cleaning the house" and "I had so much energy". These are very similar to the reports you will read from amphetamine users.

As tolerance increases, and one must take higher and higher doses of the drug, opiates suppress breathing and slow hear-rate and the user becomes very sleepy.

My explanation here is very basic and far from complete. I just wanted to highligh that opiates can produce feelings of energy and "wakefullness" in many people-but only at the lower doses.

I suggest that this gets moved over to Advanced Drug Discussions, as the members there will be able to give you a more complete answer.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Cocaine works on dopamine receptors directly by blocking reuptake of dopamine, and by flooding dopamine by releasing stores of it into the synapse.

Heroin works on dopamine more indirectly by activating mu-opioid receptors, hence triggering a g-coupled protein receptor, and the chain reaction ends with a rush of dopamine.

I suggest that this gets moved over to Advanced Drug Discussions, as the members there will be able to give you a more complete answer.

No, this is an intermediary topic of discussion. It'll stay here.

In ADD, this would be an eye sore I believe.

You are correct though, in low enough doses of opiates with a low tolerance, users can experience stimulating effects from opiates, however (most) opiates overall do depress the CNS even if just lightly so.

 

[QuasiStoned]

Captain Heroin hit the nail on the head. The "uppers" interact in a more direct way with dopamine receptors, opiates interact indirectly with dopamine.

I wasn't so much a fan of its 'tweaking' aspects but more of that fucking content and ultra confident sensation it gave me. I'm interested to know if heroin produces that effect but perhaps moreso?

Opiates cause me to feel content and more confident, I dunno if it would be more than amphetamine because I have little experience with any "speedy" drugs.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I do think that heroin will deliver the confidence and comfort that amphetamines can give you. However, I'm not going to say "go seek out heroin" either.

 

[ranunky]

the dopamine is just one part of the high, it is the bit that makes you feel good. Good = dopaimine. Food, sex, doing just about anything you enjoy all release dopaime. Other things happen during these good times such as activity in your genitalia during sex, tasting and smelling during eating and maybe some droopy eyes with heroin, the thing that ties them together, is that they release dopamine hence they all feel good. Unfortunately dopamine rushes create cravings for the stimulus/ii that cause them. Craving a cigarette is not totally dissimilar from being hungry.

Now for sum science:
Amps act directly on dopaminergic terminals so therefore will cause every dopamine neuron in the brain to release dopamine. Only dopamine neurons in an area called the VTA are responsible for the feelgood factor. Heroin does not act directly on dopamine neurons, therefore will not activate all the dopaimine neurons, only the ones that are set up to be acted upon by the endorphin system (it hits the VTA - hard) therefore heroin and amp have a different activation pattern in the dopamine neurons alone. Amps also release serotonin, noradrenaline and likely interacts with numerous minor messenger systems too, creating a real firestorm in the brain. Heroin on the other hand, increases activity in these dopamine neurons but decreases activity on most other areas of the brain (including the bits that keep you breatihing), so you get a more sedate bliss.

 

[Krowsnose]

I think stimulants and opiates are completely different highs. They are almost opposites of each other but they are both pleasurable which explains their role with dopamine.

The good feeling you get out of stimulants is from feeling ultra confident, strong willed and able in the world. The goodness from opiates is more sensual, calm, like you're in the perfect moment of your life. The biggest difference for me is that stimulants always affect your thoughts like crazy where opiates can almost drown out all thinking and cognitive functioning.

 

[Fail Fighter]

I think the OP is just confused about the basic neurotransmitters. First of all, ALL recreational drugs increase synaptic dopamine levels. If a particular drug didn't cause a dopamine spike, then it wouldn't be "fun" and there'd be no reason to take it. Second, you are relating uppers to dopamine levels when you should be relating them to norepinephrine levels. The norepinephrine/noradrenaline spike is what causes the "speedy" effects of uppers.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I think the OP is just confused about the basic neurotransmitters. First of all, ALL recreational drugs increase synaptic dopamine levels. If a particular drug didn't cause a dopamine spike, then it wouldn't be "fun" and there'd be no reason to take it. Second, you are relating uppers to dopamine levels when you should be relating them to norepinephrine levels. The norepinephrine/noradrenaline spike is what causes the "speedy" effects of uppers.

Not all drugs effect dopamine levels, that's not true.

Dopamine isn't the only neurotransmitter that leads to "feeling good". There are a multitude of different brain receptors which lead you to feeling good.

 

[djsim]

The end result for any habit-forming drug (and activity like sex/gambling) is the same (I'm sure there's exceptions though): they all cause increased activity in te dopaminergic (nucleus accumbens) pathway. Amphetamines/cocaine do this relatively directly, whereas opiates do this indirectly.
For opiates there are neurons supressing the dopamine pathway. Opiates cause this "brake" to be released (via hyperpolarisation if anyone is interested). But there is also a very different component in the pain-relief side of opiates; much harder to pin down.

 

[ranunky]

Dopamine isn't the only neurotransmitter that leads to "feeling good". There are a multitude of different brain receptors which lead you to feeling good.

It's the big one. Dopamine is the type of good you crave, the whole craving/addiction/reward system is built on dopamine.

 

[8L4YN3]

I think some links to some evidence is on the menu.

 

[daddysgone]

It's the big one. Dopamine is the type of good you crave, the whole craving/addiction/reward system is built on dopamine.

And yet virtually the entire pharmaceutical world has conspired together to convince us that serotonin is the neurotransmitter responsible for us either feeling "blue" (If we have too little), or feeling on top of the world (if we have sufficient/high levels)- hence the proliferation of SSRI's.

Now I am NOT trying to suggest that they are correct in their belief that serotonin is main neurotransmitter responsible for our feelings of depression/joy. In fact, the dismal failure of the SSRI movement seems to suggest that they are WAY off on this one. In my experience, SSRI do absolutely nothing aside from chemically castrating you. The only real use I could see in this class of drugs, would be to mandate that sex offenders take high-ish dosages of SSRI's, thus banishing any sexual impulses (deviant or otherwise) which they might have.....

Perhaps the most hilarious and telling bit of information I recently stumbled upon, which brilliantly highlights how little these pharmaceutical companies understand things like depression, and the drugs which they advocate using as treatment:
Recently there have been some studies that investigate the therapeutic effects of a new class of drugs called SSRE's. This acronym stands for "Serotonin Re-uptake ENHANCER". This class of drugs effectively does the opposite of SSRI's (It increases the rate that serotonin is re-uptaken from the brain, leading to an overall DECREASE of serotonin in the brain). An example of this drug is tianeptine.
Now for the hilarious part: these SSRE's are being studied as useful drugs to battle...depression. And it gets better-Thus far, studies have revealed that this class of drugs seems to be AT LEAST as effective in treating depression then the SSRI's. It's just amazing.

So for years now we've had the pharma industry shoving SSRI's down our throat, ensuring us that the increased levels of serotonin caused by these drugs, will effectively treat our depression.
And now....We are seeing SSRE's, which literally do the EXACT opposite of SSRI's, and reports are suggesting that the resulting DECREASED levels of serotonin this class of drug induces, is at least (perhaps more) effective at treating depression. Just amazing-DG

 

[morphonorconic]

Though Heroin, and all Opioids for that matter, are CNS depressants, many people, including myself , experience a marked increase in energy, and all around stimulation. For example, whether I have been using regularly or not, if I take Heroin, I will immediately be filled with a sort of "effort-less" energy, which is seemingly infinite. Keep in mind however, that this stimulation is not exactly like the stimulation produced by Stimulants, and all Opioids are different. Again, for example, Oxycodone produces very strong stimulatory effects in most users, especially compared to Opioids like Heroin or Fentanyl.

 

[delta_9]

I was quite surprised when my friend told my that heroin also affects the dopamine receptors in causing its effects.

I'm pretty sure that any drug that produces real euphoria has some activity at dopamine receptors.

 

[Fail Fighter]

Not all drugs effect dopamine levels, that's not true.

Well I disagree. Maybe some drugs don't directly affect dopamine release or reuptake, but dopamine levels will still spike, if even only from the reward of "doing drugs." For most people, the act of smoking, snorting, or injecting alone is enough to trigger a dopamine release, regardless of the chemical being consumed.

 

[Fail Fighter]

Come to think of it, why don't dopamine agonists like Mirapex cause euphoria? It would seem that dopamine release on it's own is only good for treating Parkinson's and RLS...

We have pills that increase dopamine, and pills that increase seratonin, and pills that increase norepinephrine, and none of them get you high. It seems that the actual "high" is dependent on a myriad of neurotransmitter interactions. Pointing out elevated levels of one or two select neurotransmitters isn't going to tell the full story.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

It's the big one. Dopamine is the type of good you crave, the whole craving/addiction/reward system is built on dopamine.

Yes, I'm very aware of this. My point was that dopamine isn't the only neurotransmitter that intoxicates people. Serotonin, GABA, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, oxytocin, and endorphins all play into "good" feelings - the kind of "good" you crave, and all have the potential of creating addictions.

And yet virtually the entire pharmaceutical world has conspired together to convince us that serotonin is the neurotransmitter responsible for us either feeling "blue" (If we have too little), or feeling on top of the world (if we have sufficient/high levels)- hence the proliferation of SSRI's.

Now I am NOT trying to suggest that they are correct in their belief that serotonin is main neurotransmitter responsible for our feelings of depression/joy. In fact, the dismal failure of the SSRI movement seems to suggest that they are WAY off on this one. In my experience, SSRI do absolutely nothing aside from chemically castrating you. The only real use I could see in this class of drugs, would be to mandate that sex offenders take high-ish dosages of SSRI's, thus banishing any sexual impulses (deviant or otherwise) which they might have.....

Perhaps the most hilarious and telling bit of information I recently stumbled upon, which brilliantly highlights how little these pharmaceutical companies understand things like depression, and the drugs which they advocate using as treatment:
Recently there have been some studies that investigate the therapeutic effects of a new class of drugs called SSRE's. This acronym stands for "Serotonin Re-uptake ENHANCER". This class of drugs effectively does the opposite of SSRI's (It increases the rate that serotonin is re-uptaken from the brain, leading to an overall DECREASE of serotonin in the brain). An example of this drug is tianeptine.
Now for the hilarious part: these SSRE's are being studied as useful drugs to battle...depression. And it gets better-Thus far, studies have revealed that this class of drugs seems to be AT LEAST as effective in treating depression then the SSRI's. It's just amazing.

So for years now we've had the pharma industry shoving SSRI's down our throat, ensuring us that the increased levels of serotonin caused by these drugs, will effectively treat our depression.
And now....We are seeing SSRE's, which literally do the EXACT opposite of SSRI's, and reports are suggesting that the resulting DECREASED levels of serotonin this class of drug induces, is at least (perhaps more) effective at treating depression. Just amazing-DG

Yes, that's because some people have too much serotonin, and some others - not enough.

Though an abnormal serotonin level can effect people via depression, it's more likely that a vast majority of depression cases are caused by a lack of endogenous endorphins - leading many to opioid/opiate abuse.

It's not surprising that the pharmaceutical industry has pushed SSRI's as far as they would go - they do that with every product they produce.

Though Heroin, and all Opioids for that matter, are CNS depressants, many people, including myself , experience a marked increase in energy, and all around stimulation. For example, whether I have been using regularly or not, if I take Heroin, I will immediately be filled with a sort of "effort-less" energy, which is seemingly infinite. Keep in mind however, that this stimulation is not exactly like the stimulation produced by Stimulants, and all Opioids are different. Again, for example, Oxycodone produces very strong stimulatory effects in most users, especially compared to Opioids like Heroin or Fentanyl.

That's because being dependent on CNS depressants means without them - your body is in overdrive, and you are unable to do much. Having a really high heart rate, BP, etc is not conducive to having plenty of energy and feeling well enough to be able to function.

This is why opiate dependent people find heroin and other opiates give them "energy" - this is what happens to people dependent on CNS depressants; they tend to become 'stimulating depressants' as dependence sets in.

Well I disagree. Maybe some drugs don't directly affect dopamine release or reuptake, but dopamine levels will still spike, if even only from the reward of "doing drugs." For most people, the act of smoking, snorting, or injecting alone is enough to trigger a dopamine release, regardless of the chemical being consumed.

Well, yes, you are technically accurate. My point was not all drugs act directly on dopamine - they work through other neurotransmitters, which in turn effect dopamine.

There are neurotransmitters which tend to effect the other major ones, such as nicotinic acetylcholine.

Come to think of it, why don't dopamine agonists like Mirapex cause euphoria? It would seem that dopamine release on it's own is only good for treating Parkinson's and RLS...

We have pills that increase dopamine, and pills that increase seratonin, and pills that increase norepinephrine, and none of them get you high. It seems that the actual "high" is dependent on a myriad of neurotransmitter interactions. Pointing out elevated levels of one or two select neurotransmitters isn't going to tell the full story.

I can tell you why you can't get high on Parkinson's drugs - it's because Parkinson's drugs are designed to help patients achieve normal dopamine levels. They are not designed to surge your dopamine levels like meth would to get you high.

If you already have normal dopamine levels, I'm not sure what taking Parkinson's drugs would do for you, if anything.

I'm not exactly sure how drugs like Mirapex work at all, but I'm more than positive that they don't work by just surging dopamine levels. Drugs that surge your dopamine levels end up creating a further lack of dopamine - and this would not be beneficial for a Parkinson's patient.

So, this is why you can't get high on Grandpa's Parkinson's medication.

You are correct that most drugs effect multiple different receptors - most psychedelics, and other drugs including alcohol, tobacco, amphetamines, etc hold true to this.

 

[Shambles]

Unless I'm mistaken (very possible) then MDPV is the only commonly (ab)used drug that only affects dopamine so would make an interesting comparison perhaps as all the other stims also affect serotonin and possibly other systems. MDPV feels gooooood, incidentally

 

[Fail Fighter]

Well I dunno, my interest was piqued so I poked around on Wiki for a while, but the results seem mixed. On the pages for the individual dopaminergic drugs, such as Requip and Mirapex, the side effects don't sound like very much fun. But on the main dopamine agonist page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_agonist

The very first side-effect is listed as "euphoria." But then again, I know Wiki isn't considered a valid or citable source. One thing's for sure, these Parkinson's drugs are genuine dopamine full-agonists. From what I can tell, they literally do cause surges in dopamine levels. Some listed side-effects were "compulsive gambling" and "hypersexuality." Doesn't sound half bad to me. Heck, I can rid my RLS and fix my weiner at the same time! *swish*

On the other hand, if euphoria was a standard/regular side-effect, the DEA would surely be on top of it and have Requip/Mirapex scheduled already. So I don't know, I wish some of the ADD geniuses would come in and break it down into lay terms for us.