Steroid Discussion ~ ver. Healthy Living

[Fjones]

after my first 12 week cycle, I learned to never tell people you are 'on'. They don't understand and your friends will be nervous/alarmed/worried for you. There is no reason to put yourself through lectures from naive people who don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Its like telling somebody you had an amazing trip on acid last night. They most often become shocked if they don't use acid themselves. It really unsettles them that you are manipulating your bodymind with a chemical they have heard is extremely powerful and devastating to one's health.

Steroids actually are extremely healthy. There is a reason why they are given to wasting disease patients. They boost red blood cell count and strengthen the immune system. They increase protein shuttling into musculature and can in some cases increase joint fluids (synovial fluid) which can bring relief from tendonitis, bursitis, etc. They can also solve sexual dysfunction and regulate circadian rhythms. Bodybuilders use them because they increase muscular nitrogen stores which has a result of pulling more protein into the muscle fiber (and there the protein can be added onto the existing muscle in order to increase size, ie muscular hypertrophy). Glucose is also much more easily shuttled into muscle fibers (stored as glycogen) which can further increase hypertrophy.

There is a tremendous lack of knowledge about steroids, scare tactics the US government has used against us to make us more docile and sheep-like. They don't want us juicing of course because it turns us into strong, confident, independent people. Same reason psychedelics are banned. Thats not good for a country like ours that runs on the effort of sheep.

A proper PCT is necessary, but thats common sense. You are shutting your natural production of testosterone down completely for 9 weeks out of a 12 week cycle. It takes some time for luetinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone to trigger the process of regeneration in your testicles in order for testosterone to be created. Modern PCTs are excellent though and after a month of being 'off' the steroid user has regained their natural testosterone levels, testicle size, and sex drive. I can attest to that!

Maria, I wouldn't mind our posts being split off into another thread here in HL. I took some time writing this post and the posts above, so I would like to see the discussion continued. If its not too much trouble for you. Otherwise I'll start another thread and quote all the relavant posts.

You make some good points here.

 

[Heuristic]

This is a good thread, and a good discussion to have. I'll stir the pot a little by throwing in my two cents. Disagreement is welcome.

I think for anyone involved in sports, steroids are a poor idea, particularly at this time. Testing methods are improving, and becoming more rigorous. So my advice to any competitive athletes out there is to avoid using these substances, leaving aside health and legal concerns.

Regarding health concerns... they can certainly accelerate and augment gains in strength. But I haven't seen any good studies on their safety with long-term usage at dose levels commonly used in the gym. That said, I haven't followed this subject closely for some time, so if someone wants to chime in with research or links, I'd be very interested in reading it.

Given that lack of knowledge, I simply don't think they're worth the risk from a health perspective. You can gain plenty of muscle and strength simply by following a rigorous workout program and eating properly.

Regarding legal concerns... these are Schedule III substances. Why risk arrest and prison time simply for the sake of adding a few pounds of muscle mass, when you can attain an extremely healthy and fit body without resorting to illegal substances?

Their use will also disqualify you for employment in many government agencies, and may have an impact on your ability to obtain certain security clearances if you intend on military service.

 

[sunyata]

^ good post. I agree that if you are playing a competitive sport where you are tested, then you really ought not to use steroids. This is more a 'moral' issue for me though than a pragmatic issue. I think if you are competing then you should follow the rules. Thats why I laughed so hard at the above poster early in the thread who told me I was breaking 'the rules' and cheating using steroids. I never agreed to these 'rules' - I play my own game:

UNAPOLOGETIC MUSCLE BUILDING

Its a one man kind of thing

 

[Busty St Clare]

There is no such thing as a "level playing field". Its a business, nothing to do with fair. Fair is what is fed to school children when they are playing board games. It doesn't put food on your families table.

I sat in an Italian hospital close to ten years ago with my shoulder destroyed while my club doctors injected me and spoke Italian at a hundred miles an hour. When I asked if I would be test positive they just laughed and said "Not for 5 years". We were a small club playing it the top flight of Europe with a budget a fraction of what the French and English clubs. Only those clubs years behind the programme played "fair". The larger clubs had their own "nutritional programmes".


It never gave me an advantage (I gave away 30-40kg every time I ran out onto the pitch) but it did mean I was able to raise my arm about my head withn a week or two. Why not use medical science to help me heal? It was different to full cycles several times a year but without it I would no doubt be a cripple today.

 

[Portillo]

^ good post. I agree that if you are playing a competitive sport where you are tested, then you really ought not to use steroids. This is more a 'moral' issue for me though than a pragmatic issue. I think if you are competing then you should follow the rules. Thats why I laughed so hard at the above poster early in the thread who told me I was breaking 'the rules' and cheating using steroids. I never agreed to these 'rules' - I play my own game:

UNAPOLOGETIC MUSCLE BUILDING

Its a one man kind of thing

Achieving bodybuilding extremes takes a great toll, as the individuals disregard their health. When young and vigorous, and seemingly indestructible, big risks are often taken with little or no consideration for future repercussions. Don't mess with your health! The older you get, the more you'll appreciate the importance of good health. For many people it's only when they no longer have their health that they fully appreciate the value of health. Don't be like them.

There are many former bodybuilders who messed up their health with drug and training abuse, and paid a heavy price. Past memories of how they used to look matter little if at all as they battle with major health problems.

If I could give only one piece of advice, to bodybuilders (and non-bodybuilders), it would be this: Look after your health, because it's your most important possession! Don't do anything that will undermine your health. Don't smoke, don't drink more than two or three beers or glasses of wine a day, don't take recreational drugs, and don't take performance enhancing drugs. Do eat healthily, exercise regularly and safely, and sleep well. And find work and relationships that make you happy.

While I made many mistakes with my training and nutrition when I was young, I never got into drugs. While I injured myself repeatedly from training ignorance and foolishness, I had enough sense to stay drug-free. Thus, now, in my middle age, I'm not having to deal with drug-related health problems, unlike many of my peers who, for example, took steroids.

Train for health and physique, not just physique -- that's what real bodybuilding is, in my view. This isn't an old-fashioned philosophy. It's a sensible philosophy. Health comes first. You may not believe it now, if you're young, but you will believe it later on, when you're not so young. Be the best you can, but WITHOUT taking any extreme measures.

You can have a brilliant physique WITHOUT being huge. Hardly anyone has the freakish genetics required for monster development. For average-height men, while you may need to be 250+ pounds at only 5% bodyfat to turn the judges' eyes today in big contests, "just" 190 pounds and 10% bodyfat will drop the jaws of almost everyone else. And that latter sort of physique would have won you big contests 40+ years ago.

http://www.hardgainer.com/qna03.html

 

[Portillo]

BTW Sunyata, which page did you post your pic in the Healthy Living thread? I would look to see your Unapologetic Muscle Build.

 

[sunyata]

Achieving bodybuilding extremes takes a great toll, as the individuals disregard their health. When young and vigorous, and seemingly indestructible, big risks are often taken with little or no consideration for future repercussions. Don't mess with your health! The older you get, the more you'll appreciate the importance of good health. For many people it's only when they no longer have their health that they fully appreciate the value of health. Don't be like them.

There are many former bodybuilders who messed up their health with drug and training abuse, and paid a heavy price. Past memories of how they used to look matter little if at all as they battle with major health problems.

If I could give only one piece of advice, to bodybuilders (and non-bodybuilders), it would be this: Look after your health, because it's your most important possession! Don't do anything that will undermine your health. Don't smoke, don't drink more than two or three beers or glasses of wine a day, don't take recreational drugs, and don't take performance enhancing drugs. Do eat healthily, exercise regularly and safely, and sleep well. And find work and relationships that make you happy.

While I made many mistakes with my training and nutrition when I was young, I never got into drugs. While I injured myself repeatedly from training ignorance and foolishness, I had enough sense to stay drug-free. Thus, now, in my middle age, I'm not having to deal with drug-related health problems, unlike many of my peers who, for example, took steroids.

Train for health and physique, not just physique -- that's what real bodybuilding is, in my view. This isn't an old-fashioned philosophy. It's a sensible philosophy. Health comes first. You may not believe it now, if you're young, but you will believe it later on, when you're not so young. Be the best you can, but WITHOUT taking any extreme measures.

You can have a brilliant physique WITHOUT being huge. Hardly anyone has the freakish genetics required for monster development. For average-height men, while you may need to be 250+ pounds at only 5% bodyfat to turn the judges' eyes today in big contests, "just" 190 pounds and 10% bodyfat will drop the jaws of almost everyone else. And that latter sort of physique would have won you big contests 40+ years ago.

http://www.hardgainer.com/qna03.html

no such thing as hardgainers. Only undereaters. You seem to think that moderate steroid cycles will leave a person unhealthy? They do not, there is really no such evidence for this. There is the sad fact that some people push it too long, stay on for many months longer than they should, and then end up needing HRT (hormone replacement therapy) for the rest of their life. This is the extreme though. Not everybody using steroids is a bodybuilding professional and pushing the extreme. Some people use them for the help they give them in their personal quest to become bigger, faster, stronger.

 

[sunyata]

BTW Sunyata, which page did you post your pic in the Healthy Living thread? I would look to see your Unapologetic Muscle Build.

I don't have to prove myself to you or anybody else. But thanks for trying to pressure me into showing a picture of my body on the internet.
[edited: No name calling and insults here. ]

 

[mariacallas]

Lets keep this thread decent and free from insults or else I will close it.

 

[sunyata]

I'm also done here trying to help explain things in an understandable way to those who obviously are operating under gross miconceptions, if you should continue to attack me personally. I am more than willing to help impart some knowledge to anybody who is interested but I will not deal with bullshit from punks hiding behind their keyboard.

 

[KStoner6tb]

It's a personal decision. Somebody wants to take steroids, that's their choice.

The media, along with former users who ignorantly blame certain health problems on steroids with no medical proof(Lyle Alzado who claimed they gave him brain cancer, even though his OWN doctor said there was zero proof) have sterotyped steroids in a hysterical, b.s. manner. True, they raise bad cholesterol, may cause acne, and other similiar sides, but used by educated ADULTS, not kids, are not causing all these life threatening conditions some like to believe.

The last time I used was over 3 years ago, and I'm not planning on ever cycling again. As I've gotten older, I've become more satisfied with what I can do naturally, and don't feel the need to surpass my natural abilities. I just don't want to go through the process when there's really no big reason to. I can understand borderline professional athletes cycling more than I do us average Joes. If it's the difference between making $30,000/year and over a million, I can see some reasoning behind the use. Is it cheating? Yah, but all the people who boo hoo and whine over how these big bad athletes are cheaters would probably do the same damn thing if they were in their shoes.

Who are ordinary people who choose to take steroids cheating? Themselves? Why should anyone else care? Cause they're bigger than you? Who cares.

I guess I'm just skirting the fence here because I'm not black and white on the matter. I believe with steroids there is a little gray especially because of how uninformed the general public is on the subject.

 

[Nibiru]

I'm all for the freedom of choice. I just don't see the need. The body and natural environment are enough to feed a person. That's evolution. A healthy person's endocrine system is a hormone factory, good food is the raw material. Simple as that to me. I don't really see the need for things like steroid hormones and nootropics, stuff like that when a person's own body and mind is capable of doing what they do in the right conditions. It'll take longer, but patience is probably the best thing gained in any endeavor in my opinion.

 

[sunyata]

I'm all for the freedom of choice. I just don't see the need. The body and natural environment are enough to feed a person. That's evolution. A healthy person's endocrine system is a hormone factory, good food is the raw material. Simple as that to me. I don't really see the need for things like steroid hormones and nootropics, stuff like that when a person's own body and mind is capable of doing what they do in the right conditions. It'll take longer, but patience is probably the best thing gained in any endeavor in my opinion.

great post. But realize that hard work and dedication cannot be exempted just because you're tagging your glutes with 70mg of test every morning. It still takes hundreds of hours of hard work under the bar and a very good diet to sculpt muscle, with or without steroid injections.

 

[KStoner6tb]

great post. But realize that hard work and dedication cannot be exempted just because you're tagging your glutes with 70mg of test every morning. It still takes hundreds of hours of hard work under the bar and a very good diet to sculpt muscle, with or without steroid injections.

That's another reason why I wouldn't cycle again unless I won the lottery. It takes too much time with diets, workouts, rest, etc. to be worth cycling. The only way I'd cycle again is if I didn't have to work and could devote ALL my time to diet(the hardest to keep on par living a normal life) workouts, and rest to fully maximize the fact that I am injecting powerfull hormones into my body, and shutting down my natural test production.

 

[Heuristic]

Mmmm... I haven't seen any good data on long-term effects on the liver of the type of steroids that tend to be used, at the dosages they tend to be used. That, the reasonably high possibility of misuse, the lack of safety studies concerning other possible side-effects, and of course the legal risks involved, make this a poor choice, in my own opinion.

Given a healthy body's ability to obtain good muscle mass and tone without the use of these drugs, I simply don't see a good reason to use them.

Not a personal attack on anyone. I'm talking about the use of these substances generally, and am not referring to anyone's particular usage of them.

 

[sunyata]

^ testosterone is extremely easy on the liver. Steroids that are 17-alkylated (such as Dianabol) tend to very aggresively tear up the liver (like alcohol). That is one reason why those drugs (dbol, etc) are only run 4-6 weeks and testosterone can be run for 12-14 weeks.

 

[Portillo]

I'm also done here trying to help explain things in an understandable way to those who obviously are operating under gross miconceptions, if you should continue to attack me personally. I am more than willing to help impart some knowledge to anybody who is interested but I will not deal with bullshit from punks hiding behind their keyboard.

Easy on the roid rage. Dont wanna show your pic thats fine, i just thought you might had done it already.

 

[Fjones]

Achieving bodybuilding extremes takes a great toll, as the individuals disregard their health. When young and vigorous, and seemingly indestructible, big risks are often taken with little or no consideration for future repercussions. Don't mess with your health! The older you get, the more you'll appreciate the importance of good health. For many people it's only when they no longer have their health that they fully appreciate the value of health. Don't be like them.

There are many former bodybuilders who messed up their health with drug and training abuse, and paid a heavy price. Past memories of how they used to look matter little if at all as they battle with major health problems.

If I could give only one piece of advice, to bodybuilders (and non-bodybuilders), it would be this: Look after your health, because it's your most important possession! Don't do anything that will undermine your health. Don't smoke, don't drink more than two or three beers or glasses of wine a day, don't take recreational drugs, and don't take performance enhancing drugs. Do eat healthily, exercise regularly and safely, and sleep well. And find work and relationships that make you happy.

While I made many mistakes with my training and nutrition when I was young, I never got into drugs. While I injured myself repeatedly from training ignorance and foolishness, I had enough sense to stay drug-free. Thus, now, in my middle age, I'm not having to deal with drug-related health problems, unlike many of my peers who, for example, took steroids.

Train for health and physique, not just physique -- that's what real bodybuilding is, in my view. This isn't an old-fashioned philosophy. It's a sensible philosophy. Health comes first. You may not believe it now, if you're young, but you will believe it later on, when you're not so young. Be the best you can, but WITHOUT taking any extreme measures.

You can have a brilliant physique WITHOUT being huge. Hardly anyone has the freakish genetics required for monster development. For average-height men, while you may need to be 250+ pounds at only 5% bodyfat to turn the judges' eyes today in big contests, "just" 190 pounds and 10% bodyfat will drop the jaws of almost everyone else. And that latter sort of physique would have won you big contests 40+ years ago.

http://www.hardgainer.com/qna03.html

190 Lbs and 10% would be great. I imagine most people would have great difficulty achieving this though. Can you provide a photo of someone (known or unknown) who meets that criteria? I am curious as to exactly what 10% body fat looks like, because different people seem to have different estimations of body fat. I think of 10% body fat as being pretty ripped. am I wrong?

 

[Portillo]

Sorry i dont have a picture. I dont know much about body fat percentages.

 

[Heuristic]

^ testosterone is extremely easy on the liver. Steroids that are 17-alkylated (such as Dianabol) tend to very aggresively tear up the liver (like alcohol). That is one reason why those drugs (dbol, etc) are only run 4-6 weeks and testosterone can be run for 12-14 weeks.

Well... but just running testosterone carries problems of its own. I realize that there is SOME testing which shows lose-dose, very short-term, use of certain steroids to be relatively safe, but I haven't seen any good studies of the effects of the "therapeutic" dosages used by those who juice over the long term.