Steroid Discussion ~ ver. Healthy Living

[Fjones]

Poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean to imply that he was unable to speak for himself. I was just chiming in with my observations about the thread.

I looked at Stuart Mcrobert's website, at least the part your post referenced. It was an interesting read, and I agree with much of it.

 

[sunyata]

Maybe the ones who use steroids are the ones that are insecure... I admit the idea of gaining big muscles on steroids is tempting. But at the same time im very comfortable in my gains as a natural.

I read an article about steroids and how not using them can be a positive thing. Such as staying out of any legal trouble, saving money, keeping the majority of your gains, and staying healthy. The loss of gains after you come off can be depressing, as you see your superhuman physique wither away day by day and losing strength and sex drive.

Only if you sit around and don't lift like a pussy. On or off steroids you better be hitting squats and deadlifts hard or you get weak.

 

[sunyata]

I am going to speak on behalf of sunyata here, because I would be very frustrated if I were him, so I certainly understand why he is.

He is giving very specific detailed point by point explanations to support his argument. He seems to have done a lot of research, and he seems to know what he is talking about.

Yet, people are responding to him with hackneyed clichés, vague generalizations, logical fallacies, and misinformation.

That is very frustrating to deal with. No one has really refuted any of his specific points, or even tried, for that matter. It's the same kind of frustrating stuff I have tried to deal with in the speeding thread I created in Second Opinion.

If you disagree with what he is saying, refute his points using information, research, and sound logic. If you are not able to do so, it is okay to say, "Well Sunyata, I always heard that Steroids are bad for you no matter what, but I don't really have enough knowledge or facts to dispute what you are saying, so I'll have to get back to you."

well said Fjones! very well said!

you can speak for me any time bro :D

 

[sunyata]

hardgainer.com's

no such thing as a hardgainer bro. Only undereaters.

 

[Heuristic]

I am going to speak on behalf of sunyata here, because I would be very frustrated if I were him, so I certainly understand why he is.

He is giving very specific detailed point by point explanations to support his argument. He seems to have done a lot of research, and he seems to know what he is talking about.

Yet, people are responding to him with hackneyed clichés, vague generalizations, logical fallacies, and misinformation.

That is very frustrating to deal with. No one has really refuted any of his specific points, or even tried, for that matter. It's the same kind of frustrating stuff I have tried to deal with in the speeding thread I created in Second Opinion.

If you disagree with what he is saying, refute his points using information, research, and sound logic. If you are not able to do so, it is okay to say, "Well Sunyata, I always heard that Steroids are bad for you no matter what, but I don't really have enough knowledge or facts to dispute what you are saying, so I'll have to get back to you."

The points he raised were very specifically responded to.

And I'd like to reiterate that we need to keep this as drama free as possible. It's a sufficiently sensitive subject without the injection of personal confrontation into the mix.

 

[Heuristic]

Noo I didn't mean that in order to give 110%, you need to take steroids. Misunderstanding. People that use steroids responsibly already give a 110% effort in dieting, workouts, sleep, etc. and steroids are just the cherry on top.

If you're going to use them, I think that's how it should be. Not still divulging in old habbits; partying, eating junk food, smoking while on=cycle. DUMB

Fair enough, and I agree re partying, junk food, and smoking. But I think for those who use regularly, the steroids are more than just the cherry on top, no?

 

[Roger&Me]

Most people don't possess the discipline, the lifting experience, the knowledge of nutrition, the sources for ancillaries, or really any of the prerequisites for steroid use. If you're asking questions on the internet about how to live healthy, you really have no business even thinking about taking steroids. I agree that they shouldn't be recommended to people in this forum, that's just plain irresponsible. If you want to talk about steroids, go to steroid discussion.

Andy, you know better than that man -- people shouldn't be using steroids until they are experienced with muscular development and have hit their natural peak (or at least hit a serious plateau in terms of gaining) -- I think most knowledgeable steroid users would agree with me on that point. I don't think really anyone in the healthy living forum qualifies as candidates for steroid use.

 

[Jamshyd]

^ A voice of reason.

Btw, even though I respect the "it's you're body" thing, I actually condemn steroid use because some users actually hurt others around them through their altered personalities. I have known people who became completely other (disgusting) persons when using steroids.

Sure, I don't care what you do to your body, just don't hurt me with it!

 

[sunyata]

If you use steroids to go beyond your genetic potential then you will need steroids to stay there, effectively giving yourself a steroid addiction. Your natural testosterone levels can only maintain a set amount of muscle weight.

If you use steroids to reach your genetic potential quicker then you won't need them to stay there. You can then focus on gaining strength by adapting neuromuscular connections (which can bring you up quite a bit without weight gains). You'll have more time to focus on neuromuscular connections thereby making you a stronger person in the end (and not just a shortcut).

 

[Portillo]

no such thing as a hardgainer bro. Only undereaters.

You win sunyata, steroids rule! The hardgainer is just the name of the website, i agree no such thing.

 

[sunyata]

Not trying to 'win'. Trying to explain my usage of steroids to a few (you included) very misinformed people. You should take this as a treat my friend. I'm an unusually intelligent person (not to toot my own horn) who has thought and researched the issue a TREMENDOUS amount and who has also experimented on himself with these drugs. So my advice is go back and reread my posts carefully and try to learn something.

/teacher

 

[KStoner6tb]

Fair enough, and I agree re partying, junk food, and smoking. But I think for those who use regularly, the steroids are more than just the cherry on top, no?

I'll always consider it the cherry on top, if everything else is in order.

What's more hazardous for you health; someone who is dedicated 100% to being healthy, works out regular, adheres to a very strict diet, but supplements with testosterone shots on the side or...

Party boy over here with a fast food rich diet, boozing, drug use, and cigarrette smoking lifestyle?

Who's roughin you up Jam? ahah you gotta let'em know homie don't play that

 

[Heuristic]

KStoner, I am not dismissing the hypocrisy of those who, while warning others against the dangers of steroid use, decide themselves to indulge in the use of various drugs which have, even when used "appropriately," numerous unhealthy effects. I fully agree with your point, in this respect. And I am glad, frankly, that you consider it simply a cherry and not the sundae.

Those who have used steroids over the long term, in my experience, do not view its use simply as the cherry, though, but as an essential part of the meal.

Now, what Sunyata says about short-term use simply to accelerate gains may be true, though there are myriad complications in doing so, of which he sounds fully aware. When I speak about dangers such as prostate cancer, I'm speaking about long-term use. I also view the more psychological dangers of long-term use to be quite real.

I also agree with what Roger said about the inadvisability of anyone taking steroids who is reading this forum---though frankly I think they are inadvisable for all persons, unless medically indicated.

But I disagree with Roger about the usefulness of this discussion. I've seen numerous discussions of supplements in this forum, healthy and unhealthy, legal and illegal. I see no reason why steroids should not be discussed.

 

[KStoner6tb]

I must admit, I do have a friend who I believe is psychologically addicted to the sauce. He is on his own HRT because he believes his test levels are too low, when his doctor wouldn't prescribe it because of his young age. He began using at 18 or so, and has a fear of losing size. It's more of an addiction to just being big I guess you'd say. The only way he can surpress this fear, is with steroids because he believes he's too small without them.

This part of it is what's a little gray for me. I've read that testosterone can have that type of effect on the brain for some people. But I believe there's still too much up in the air to know for sure.

The same friend of mine also has prostate issues. He's not even 25 years old yet. These surfaced once he started using steroids on a regular basis. He's been put on some sort of inflamed prostate medicine, but there has to be the thought of cancer possibilities in the future; being the prostate is already cancer-prone. Now, he is the first and only person I've known to have prostate problems with steroid use, so maybe he had a predisposition to prostate problems, and anything unnatural in his body(booze, drugs) would have caused these problems. But, if I was using, and began experiencing prostate problems, that would definetly be a sign for me to quit. Guess with him, it goes back to the psychological pull.

 

[sunyata]

I must admit, I do have a friend who I believe is psychologically addicted to the sauce. He is on his own HRT because he believes his test levels are too low, when his doctor wouldn't prescribe it because of his young age. He began using at 18 or so, and has a fear of losing size. It's more of an addiction to just being big I guess you'd say. The only way he can surpress this fear, is with steroids because he believes he's too small without them.

This part of it is what's a little gray for me. I've read that testosterone can have that type of effect on the brain for some people. But I believe there's still too much up in the air to know for sure.

The same friend of mine also has prostate issues. He's not even 25 years old yet. These surfaced once he started using steroids on a regular basis. He's been put on some sort of inflamed prostate medicine, but there has to be the thought of cancer possibilities in the future; being the prostate is already cancer-prone. Now, he is the first and only person I've known to have prostate problems with steroid use, so maybe he had a predisposition to prostate problems, and anything unnatural in his body(booze, drugs) would have caused these problems. But, if I was using, and began experiencing prostate problems, that would definetly be a sign for me to quit. Guess with him, it goes back to the psychological pull.

Thats too bad, man. It makes me sad to hear about anybody addicted to any drug. In fact, it sort of crushes me. I've had to deal with friends (and myself ) addicted to heroin, methamphetamine, pharmies (mostly benzos), and alcohol. I've never known anybody addicted to steroids. I do understand how somebody could become addicted though after my own first (very conservative) testosterone cycle. Its a very 'feelgood' drug and it doesn't feel great at all to come off it. For a week or so I felt like crap (tired, semi-depressed, weak, etc). After three weeks though (with a great PCT in place and use of HCG during cycle) I felt great again, got that natural GRR back if you know what I mean. Also would finally wake up with morning wood again after about 3 weeks (a good sign t-levels are back). But it feels like crap for a week or so like I said (kinda like you're sick).

I could see how somebody could just want to stay on.

Personally though I don't want to stay on steroids more than one more cycle. I look at them like a tool and then they're over and I can maintain naturally (so long as I don't go over my genetic potential). They just get me quicker to my weight goal (190/10-12% then a cut to 180/9-10%). I like the me when I'm natural much better than the me when I'm artificially supplied with testosterone.

I can't say though that I don't idly dream about the strength gains from being on though

 

[ebola?]

The vast majority of us here enjoy using drugs to get high (or can no longer do so due to prior issues with addiction). Many students here use various drugs and 'supplements' for performance-enhancement (whether or not they can ever really be effective in the long term). Why do we as a group react so vehemently against steroids? Is it because steroids are often taken in the interest of naked vanity? Why would we place this undertaking in a different ethical category?

Or is it just that the BL 'public' doesn't view the rewards of steroid use as opulent enough to justify the risks? I don't think that the difference in reactions could be due to inherent differences in risk...although drugs that alter such basic cellular function on such a wide basis, like hormonal mimics, creep me out a bit, but this hesitation is more my own ignorance. . .

ebola

 

[Heuristic]

The vast majority of us here enjoy using drugs to get high (or can no longer do so due to prior issues with addiction). Many students here use various drugs and 'supplements' for performance-enhancement (whether or not they can ever really be effective in the long term). Why do we as a group react so vehemently against steroids? Is it because steroids are often taken in the interest of naked vanity? Why would we place this undertaking in a different ethical category?

Or is it just that the BL 'public' doesn't view the rewards of steroid use as opulent enough to justify the risks? I don't think that the difference in reactions could be due to inherent differences in risk...although drugs that alter such basic cellular function on such a wide basis, like hormonal mimics, creep me out a bit, but this hesitation is more my own ignorance. . .

ebola

One possibility: some drugs tend to be distinctly associated with different social groups; steroids tend to be associated with a social group with which many on BL would not, or do not, get along or belong to; and so in addition to any stigma of difference that might belong the social group associated with steroid use, there is also, due to this difference, the clarity of criticism that comes with viewing a practice with which one does not associate or identify oneself.

You sound like you work in academia, so I suppose an appropriate analogy would be: BL vehement rejection of steroid use is to steroid use, as English Department criticism of sloppy thinking and group-think is to sloppy thinking and group-think.

 

[p-mo]

^ A voice of reason.

Btw, even though I respect the "it's you're body" thing, I actually condemn steroid use because some users actually hurt others around them through their altered personalities. I have known people who became completely other (disgusting) persons when using steroids.

Sure, I don't care what you do to your body, just don't hurt me with it!

I know people that turn into arseholes on cocaine. Doesn't mean I have to condemn cocaine....

 

[p-mo]

I just don't understand the HATE that comes with this territory. We regularly have threads in SD of people simply coming in to ridicule or attack us. This doesn't happen in other forums- in OD you don't see hundreds of "Damn Junkies- kick the smack, get a job, etc" threads...

 

[sunyata]

well I think Ebola is spot-on with his post this top of page. People understand the desire to pop pain pills or snort a line of coke. It feels good man.

People don't understand the motivation behind a steroid user though. I don't even think all young men in our culture can understand it anymore (where at one point it might have been much more understood by all young men). Our culture is turning into slow, weak, puffs. Feebleness is the norm now wherever you look. A weak and feeble person is never going to understand the insane hunger to become bigger, stronger, faster, leaner.