[MEGA] God

[LivingInTheMoment]

Godly image of myself? I have promoted the scientific method, not my own merits. Address my points if you want a discussion, don't be upset because I favor certain methodology.

It is A=how you have so much conceit in how you address people as well as their views! go back and read how condensending you have been in your first approach and there forward! Then you ask to be addressed in the same manner, since you lack groundness, and integrity. Have some descency and don't play "little old me" when you get the same arrows thrown back. You only display lack in your overall make up, of having substance other then academic verbalization which comes just from your head alone, and is learned.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Perhaps its the immense condescension with which you speak. Frankly you seem to have brought a great deal of emotion into this "debate" as you began to fling insults. I've reached the point where I no longer find the need to attack other's beliefs= (though I find most to be utter nonsense) as I realize that these efforts to convert one another cause nothing but conflict/anger, thus I try to understand to the fullest where exactly everyone is coming from as that is FAR more interesting and worthwhile than attacking people as well as various beliefs and putting them on the defensive and shutting down full expression of experience/belief.

Now that is a very conflicting passage!!

Insult them nicely!! The incongruency stands out!

(though I find most to be utter nonsense)

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Enlitx, please understand that for many people, having a worldview based on solid and irrefutable logic isn't the goal; having a worldview that renders life purposeful and full of connectedness is.

You put that beautifully.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

^Yes that is what I meant as an example of a balanced scientist! You can't miss it nor can not- not respect and admire, and it is throughout ones views or expressions and their substance is permeating throught their language.

 

[Psychedelic Gleam]

Now that is a very conflicting passage!!

Insult them nicely!! The incongruency stands out!

(though I find most to be utter nonsense)

No my point is that even if you find someone's belief system to be nonsense you can still treat them with respect and as an equal.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Hmm, once an insult, always remains an insult, and as much as one tries to amend it, the more it stands out as an isult.
Finding someone's views nonsense? Is the viewer's way of viewing perhaps coming from their own judgement of what they classify as nonsense?
While a number of others view it as it is to be viewed, where one owes to step to the same position of viewing it!
The emotionally disconected, can not possibly understand the language of emotion, but can only view things from a cold and callous rationalism!

What a cold robotic world would it be, to view everything in a rational perspective!
Where does the person live? By that, I don't mean geographically!

 

[Psychedelic Gleam]

I'm sorry but I fail to see how, "Even though I find your belief system to be fallacious, and in my opinion nonsensical, I look at you as an equal and will treat you, as a person, with respect" as a veiled insult. Since when was the vocalization of disbelief AN INSULT, this to me is basic honesty combined with humility and decency. Then you proceed to hint that I may be "emotionally disconnected" and entangled with "cold callous rationalism", and you say I attempt to "ammend" it, where on earth did I do that, I only have merely restated what I have said multiple times.

It is increasingly obvious to me that you haven't fully read my posts and for some reason think that I view everything with a rational perspective. Re-read a bit and you may discover that I am in no way promoting this. Personal criticism without having the decency to read what I have actually posted IS an insult.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

I'm sorry but I fail to see how, "Even though I find your belief system to be fallacious, and in my opinion nonsensical, I look at you as an equal and will treat you, as a person, with respect" as a veiled insult. Since when was the vocalization of disbelief AN INSULT, this to me is basic honesty combined with humility and decency. Then you proceed to hint that I may be "emotionally disconnected" and entangled with "cold callous rationalism", and you say I attempt to "ammend" it, where on earth did I do that, I only have merely restated what I have said multiple times.

If I insulted anyone I apologize THAT WAS NOT MY INTENT.

>vocalization of disbelief
>Finding someone's views nonsense?

If you mean what you say, then the word should be, NOT AGREEING with someone's views, and not finding their views NONESENSE. There is that subjective there, the judgment!
Basic honesty YES! Humility?NO! Decency? Definately NOT!

>Then you proceed to hint that I may be "emotionally disconnected" and entangled with "cold callous rationalism",
That was a pluralistic form, speaking not directly to you, but stating my view that the emotionally disconnected could not possibly get the drift of that form of view, one owes to speak from the same level to understand and to be understood.

The scientists are not better then the philosophers, the sports geniouses are not better then the carpenters, each to their own. Respect comes when you understand the other, you cannot insult and respect that person at the same time!

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Everyone may deserve respect, but not every theory. If you actually read what I wrote I said that every theory does not deserve equal respect.

Well, talking about theory, this is a philosophical perspective, and you come with chemistry/biochemistry to attempt to run down the ideas which come from that part of the mind or spiritual aspect, and try to kill them adding insult to injury with your derogatory comments and insults. Respect? Theories? You don't even agree our right brain has any saying in the matter. If I need spiritual atunement, I won't go asking a biochemist about it, especially one who finds no need for such "nonsense" as our views are on the philosophical and spiritual matters. Try solving the problems as in regards to chromozomes and what not, and leave it at that.

 

[Psychedelic Gleam]

>vocalization of disbelief
>Finding someone's views nonsense?

If you mean what you say, then the word should be, NOT AGREEING with someone's views, and not finding their views NONESENSE. There is that subjective there, the judgment!
Basic honesty YES! Humility?NO! Decency? Definately NOT!

BUT THAT WOULD BE DISHONEST. Frankly my honest opinion that its nonsense, and the vocalization of that opinion, IS me treating this person with decency and humility by not being so condescending as to hide my perspective about their belief in semantic bullshit. Most intellectual human beings who regularly engage in such debate can separate an attack on belief from an attack on a person. Nonsense means contrary to reason, that is not an insult, it is merely an honest statement of how I feel. Frankly if you are the only person who finds this statement of mine insulting then I feel no reason to further argue with you, as this ENTIRE argument you have brought up is based on a SINGLE word in parentheses that had little to do with the entire post among multiple paragraphs in which I am trying to be as decent as possible.

frankly I find this to be absurd because I was looking at other posts you have made in other threads here is a small sample from one thread where multiple people, including admin address your disrespect and troll-like behavior:

"you sound just as ugly as you look, and you are not in a position to tell me where to go....Geni-ass"

"Gosh you have such a limited vocabulary, once a year is fine-at least I have a life, which is not something you have subscribed to."

"Ohh my!!! That is such an eloquent speach! I guess you can't do better then that!

How old are you? I imagine since you become as young as your next sentence, that makes you pretty young!

Even in a place such as this where you can get away with one word, you yourself can't make it there, all that gets to is....bla...bla...blaaaaa, mindless in meaning!

Some guys here have a way with even the smallest word, where as you, you can talk and talk and only noise comes out! "

....

I see no further reason to argue with you about decency. and would close with another comment you said in another thread:

"don't take everything so personal and learn to let go a bit!"

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

BUT THAT WOULD BE DISHONEST. Frankly my honest opinion that its nonsense, and the vocalization of that opinion, IS me treating this person with decency and humility by not being so condescending as to hide my perspective about their belief in semantic bullshit. Most intellectual human beings who regularly engage in such debate can separate an attack on belief from an attack on a person. Nonsense means contrary to reason, that is not an insult, it is merely an honest statement of how I feel. Frankly if you are the only person who finds this statement of mine insulting then I feel no reason to further argue with you, as this ENTIRE argument you have brought up is based on a SINGLE word in parentheses that had little to do with the entire post among multiple paragraphs in which I am trying to be as decent as possible.

frankly I find this to be absurd because I was looking at other posts you have made in other threads here is a small sample from one thread where multiple people, including admin address your disrespect and troll-like behavior:

QUOTE in response to their insults!!!) "you sound just as ugly as you look, and you are not in a position to tell me where to go....Geni-ass"

QUOTE in response to their insults)"Gosh you have such a limited vocabulary, once a year is fine-at least I have a life, which is not something you have subscribed to."

QUOTE in response to their insults) "Ohh my!!! That is such an eloquent speach! I guess you can't do better then that!

QUOTE in response to their insults) How old are you? I imagine since you become as young as your next sentence, that makes you pretty young!

QUOTE in response to their insults) Even in a place such as this where you can get away with one word, you yourself can't make it there, all that gets to is....bla...bla...blaaaaa, mindless in meaning!

QUOTE in response to their insults) Some guys here have a way with even the smallest word, where as you, you can talk and talk and only noise comes out! "

........................................

I see no further reason to argue with you about decency. and would close with another comment you said in another thread:

"don't take everything so personal and learn to let go a bit!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see, that you didn't bring all the good comments I made to the ones who were very decent!!

>You cared enough to search and find my answers which I gave to the ones who insulted me, and took them out of their context and brought them here to back yourself up with?

If you are going to do that, then you should have brought also the insulting comments made to me, to which I responded to with the above comments which have a time and place, unlike how you try to make them look taken out of their context !!!

As in regards to trying to back up your own comment which I addressed in here, I am not the only one who found your comment in paranthesis as such, if you read another's comments prior you will see that others did find that comment as such as well! Please, in retrospect to trying to make amends, don't run around trying to find other responses and if you do, as I said, you should bring their comments together where they are not isolated as you are doing here, trying to run me down AGAIN!! Doing so, one needs to ask, why are you doing that? What is your motive?

The way you are trying to turn this around is very concerning!

If the person was admin, and spoke so ugly addressing me, that is a source of concern!

It seems that what I say sticks, because others comment and respond to others comments throughout the forum, yet you don't seem to take notice,but find my comments which address what is there, as out of norm? Now that is of concern!

A troll? Trying to get involved in some way but insulted instead and called a failure with pictures or pancakes and what not, and pushing me out of there instead of welcoming someone new, and slowly introducing their jokes, is that what you call a troll? How does one get pulled in with the oldies? I didn't find anyone insulting that way anywhere else! I don't see you taking yourself lightly where you find yourself insulted! Like right here.....

I will not take this any further, for it will be pulled further out of context, as well as it goes too far!

 

[Psychedelic Gleam]

I have been just as disrespected as anyone else. Still, I won't apologize for being brutally candid about subjects. I will try to refrain from language that attacks the person instead of the ideas.

The manner with which you approach these theories is very disrespectful to those who support them. You don't have to agree, but you also don't have to be so presumptuous and absolutely dismissive.

NONE of these quotes are directed at me as far as I can tell. Who found ANY of my comments, other than you, insulting, please provide me a quote.

 

[spindizzy]

Im not sure what i believe in yet. I know for a fact I dont believe in christianity/catholism since I was brought up as a roman catholic and I realised when i was about 12 that it was bullshit.

 

[FrostyMcFailure]

mynameisnotdeja is right. Its not like the majority of humans can open up a text book in public school and be taught about the ethereal/energy work/everyone's dormant psychic abilities let alone comprehend these experiences. Many humans lives are effected daily, probably deja, myself along with a vast unnumbered amount who are a step ahead of human evolution & sensitive to things in that nature. These people document there experiences & there has been concrete evidence to somethings that would make your main stream in the box filtered information receiving head spin. Deja, if you dont mind id like you 2 send me a PM of a brief description of your experience.

 

[MynameisnotDeja]

Haha which experience?

A couple of you guys have PM-ed me wanting to know about my experiences and I don't even know where to begin. I mean.. there's been a lot of crazy shit.

Lately I've been experiencing kundalini awakening, which is something I wasn't anywhere near prepared for, but so far has been pretty amazing. I know a lot of the elder yogis and stuff say its like playing with fire, so I'm not consciously trying to awaken it too much (although I'm learning how) as I understand it can be dangerous. But when it happens on it's own, I just let it flow and enjoy the experience, which is amazing.

Id like to share some experiences, Im just not sure where to begin! Maybe I will just send a list of random topics and we can pick one for discussion hehe. We should start an "Ive had less than usual and more than average experiences in this life thus far" group.

 

[Enlitx]

The manner with which you approach these theories is very disrespectful to those who support them. You don't have to agree, but you also don't have to be so presumptuous and absolutely dismissive.

So now I have to be nice to certain theories because people ascribe to them? If an idea is absurd, I will call it that. If people can't handle having their ideas challenged in a blunt way, they shouldn't be on an internet forum. Anyways, if I attack your idea in a way that offends your beliefs, you can either research the topic and defend it with vigor, or admit you have shitty ideas in the first place.

 

[Enlitx]

Perhaps its the immense condescension with which you speak. Frankly you seem to have brought a great deal of emotion into this "debate" as you began to fling insults. I've reached the point where I no longer find the need to attack other's beliefs (though I find most to be utter nonsense) as I realize that these efforts to convert one another cause nothing but conflict/anger, thus I try to understand to the fullest where exactly everyone is coming from as that is FAR more interesting and worthwhile than attacking people as well as various beliefs and putting them on the defensive and shutting down full expression of experience/belief.

I always attack beliefs, it is the best way to further out understanding. You should see the way scientists critique their peers, it is completely candid and ruthless because that fosters much better ideas and conclusion when you are forced to defend your beliefs. I wouldn't take it as an insult and become hurt if someone said my ideas were stupid because of X, I would instead do everything in my power to prove that X does not alter the validity of my ideas.

I have listened to people and do try and understand where they are coming from, that doesen't mean that at the end of the day I still have to agree with it. And I am not emotional in the slightest about these threads, it is just how I argue my points.

 

[Enlitx]

Enlitx, let me ask you a question if you don't mind, not to fuel any sort of argument or anything, but rather to get a sense of your beliefs.

Sure thing.

It's obvious that you rely heavily on scientific explanations of things... I do too, to an extent, although I am certainly not that advanced in science. I am a psychology major and I found cognitive psychology to be intresting, because we learned all about logical fallcies and the misuse of ancedotal stories to act as proof of something.

However, I also realise that everyone percieves things differently, and in many cases, the "reality" that one expierences is the only reality that really matters to them. I don't mean that to sound like "People who believe in God\Allah\etc. are crazy and just have wild imaginations"... that's not what I think. But I am fully aware that two people can look at the same event and have very different perceptions of it... so where is the the truth?

There will never be 100% proof of anything, so the truth is the best estimation you can make of it. If 99.9% of the evidence suggests there is no god, it is a pretty safe bet to say there isn't. I mean, if you saw someone robbing your house, would you act accordingly or be nice to them and invite them to supper because there is that 0.00001% chance they are taking your things and giving you all new things as part of a reality show. just because both ideas can't be proved doesen't mean that one is just as good as the other.

In physical matters, there is only one truth. For example, gravity pulls you to the earth... that is true (as far as we know it) and no matter what a person believes, they will hit the ground hard if they jump from a 3 story building. But in matters of spirituality, is it possible for their to be multiple truths?? Do you think that spirtuality is simply a matter of perception, and those who percieve a "God" live their lives by that God and those who don't, simply don't?

Spirituality is just as much physical truth as gravity, except that it is an extremely complicated result of the physical interaction in your brain. In short, it is simply a product of your emotional desires manifested in spiritual beliefs. With reference to gods, it is all a perception.

Now the matter of life after death, heaven or hell, and all that is different than what I'm discussing ^ Just to be clear. I'm talking about the mental state of relgion\spirtuality, not about any sort of physical manifestations of it.

I think the mental state of spirtuality is just that, a mental state. It doesen't reflect what is actually going on in the world exterior the the observer.

*EDIT*

After re-reading this, I think I can explain my thoughts\question in a better way:

Ok, so the way I see it there are two realities... there is the "real" reality, what is actually out there, and then there is the subjective reality, the way in which we percieve it.

Again, which the example of gravity, this is something that is pretty much reality for everyone... you would be hard pressed to find a person who truely believed that the law of gravity does not exist. We can see it with our own eyes, and the general consensus across the population is that gravity exists.

Matters of spirtuality and religion I think are more subjective... people interpret events and expierences differently, and everyone has a unique idea of what religion is (if they believe it at all), and you cannot really prove or disprove it.

You cannot prove or disprove anything, it all comes down to what is probable. And if something is MUCH more probably than another thing, then it is just prudent to call one thing false and the other true as far as humans can tell.

My question is, do you think its possible to follow life in a very scientific way, yet still be religious\spirtual?? Do you think that spirtuality is just a person's personal expierences and how they choose to interpret those, and therefore you can put stock in the laws of science yet believe in religion? Sometimes I think that God can exist to people, not necessarily in a physical state but rather in a mental state... because if I firmly believe in God, then that is real to me. It is not a universal view, but because its real to me, it is "real". < I say "I" in a hypothetical sense, as previously stated I am personally not religious.

I think that many scientific people experience cognitive dissonance because they want a god for emotional reasons. If you press them on the details and reasons for their belief, they will have to admit it is just a feeling, or faith. It satisfies an emotional need. If I firmly believe in aliens controlling the president through a microchip, that may be extremely real to me, but that isn't what is actually happening. That is why psychology/neurobiology is very important in determining why we choose to believe the things we do. I am taking a 400 level Neuropsyhbiology class next semester, I will get back to you on the specifics .

gahhh i feel like no matter how much this makes sense in my head, I sound like im contridicting myself in certain areas when its written. I'd appriciate your opnion on this if you understand what I am getting at!

I think you stated it pretty clearly, no problems on my end. If you have any questions about my response, I would be happy to clarify.

 

[Enlitx]

Agreed with all but the part in parentheses.

Enlitx, please understand that for many people, having a worldview based on solid and irrefutable logic isn't the goal; having a worldview that renders life purposeful and full of connectedness is. You can personally choose not to agree with or relate to this. But you can't make others value and prioritize as you do, and I'm hard pressed to see the point in trying.

I never tried to make people think like me, I have simply talked about how probable and valid their theories are, and what the best method to determine realistic theories is. I never said you must act like me if you want to be happy and feel connected, I guess I am wondering where you got that from.

That's the great thing about metaphysics -- it's truly a mystery to all of us, because it's by definition beyond the physical and observable. What's really 'out there' or 'behind all this' is really anyone's guess. Getting territorial about one's metaphysics is kind of like two little kids bickering about whose future car is better.

Yes, but many people use this as a license to convey the idea that all metaphysical ideas are equal. That isn't the case. I have stated over and over again that I could never disprove any theory here, but I can suggest it as being solely the product of someone's desires/irrational thought because they have no good data to base their beliefs on.

Yeah sure, I admit that it's quite possible that what we scientifically observe is literally all there is, and that our attempts to conclude otherwise amount to no more than wishful thinking and self-delusion. But since this isn't ultimately provable, I see nothing obligating me or anyone else to conclude this. (If it's true and I don't believe it, is No-God going do damn me to Nonexistent-Hell?) So I've chosen to keep my mind open to other possibilities, if only for the reason that they're more fun, exciting, and appealing. This doesn't mean I reject well-founded science for solving perfectly physical, practical problems in my day to day life. I just feel no obligation to extend this approach to metaphysics.

Hey, I keep my mind open all the time. What is pointless though is to give every theory equal credence. Like I have stated, if you have good reasoning behind why you believe something, that is different than just believing in something because it makes you feel good. I mean really, what would be the point in just saying anything that comes to your head and everyone agreeing with you. It would be an endless cycle of "I believe this" and then "Well good for you, sounds neat". In reality, that is what everyone does anyway. They come up with their own theories because of their experience and what they can deduce the best answers to be. I am just taking that and extending it to every idea, which is how our species has evolved from primitive to sophisticated.

 

[Enlitx]

It is A=how you have so much conceit in how you address people as well as their views! go back and read how condensending you have been in your first approach and there forward! Then you ask to be addressed in the same manner, since you lack groundness, and integrity. Have some descency and don't play "little old me" when you get the same arrows thrown back. You only display lack in your overall make up, of having substance other then academic verbalization which comes just from your head alone, and is learned.

I am not playing little old me. I have been refraining from attacking individuals and am focusing on ideas. That is the best I can do. Also, except for a few instincts, pretty much everything you do is learned. We just learned in very different ways.