Do the rich steal from the poor? Capitalism

[EA-1475]

There is not ONE person that has EVER been "self" made. EVER. Everyone of us has relied upon, needed, used and benefited from other people. We stand on the shoulders of many, many people who came before us or who somehow assisted us or helped us, whether voluntarily or knowingly or not.

Maybe but surely you'll agree some are more self-made than others.

Every "RICH" person has gotten THEIR cash , or land, or power or WHATEVER bysomehow by cheating, stealing, lying, manipulating, taking advantage of or using someone weaker or smaller or less competent or able. Some times it literally goes back CENTURIES.. but it's always true.

How many rich people do you know?

 

[qwe]

^he doesn't have to know the personality of any rich person in order to believe that logical argument about how rich people become rich

 

[L O V E L I F E]

^^^^^

True - BUT, if, hypothetically, he DOES know of a single solitary rich person who is NOT like that, then that would diminish the strength of his argument that "EVERY rich person . . . "

And I'm truly curious, too, with respect to the rest of those who seem to be so anti-capitailism:

Do you really NOT know of people in your lives who became wealthy WITHOUT intentionally or knowingly hurting others, and who became wealthy, rather, principally through some combination of: thinking of innovative ideas, being a self-starter, having dedication, being willing to take calculated risks and being willing to work hard?

Some people cheat and some people don't give a shit about hurting others, granted.

With that said, to the best of my knowledge, the majority of those people who have significantly improved their economic status whom I know personally, did so ethically.

And beyond that, they tend to be ethical in their non-money making dealings as well.

In my experience, there are a whole lot of people who actually DO think and act in terms of:

"How can I improve my life and the lives of those I love WITHOUT unreasonably hurting ANYONE?"

Just my experience.

 

[B9]

^^^^^


And I'm truly curious, too, with respect to the rest of those who seem to be so anti-capitailism:

Do you really NOT know of people in your lives who became wealthy WITHOUT intentionally or knowingly hurting others, and who became wealthy, rather, principally through some combination of: thinking of innovative ideas, being a self-starter, having dedication, being willing to take calculated risks and being willing to work hard?

Some people cheat and some people don't give a shit about hurting others, granted.

With that said, to the best of my knowledge, the majority of those people who have significantly improved their economic status whom I know personally, did so ethically.

And beyond that, they tend to be ethical in their non-money making dealings as well.

In my experience, there are a whole lot of people who actually DO think and act in terms of:

"How can I improve my life and the lives of those I love WITHOUT unreasonably hurting ANYONE?"

Just my experience.

I wouldn't imagine it's particularly individual people who are to somehow "blame" for something, rather an increasingly blatant drive towards "rationalisation/centralisation" & the inherent destruction of the variety of human culture.

Now this is a problem.

It's possibly not even really about capitalism, but rather about the level of control, which is currently exercised by those who hold capitalism closer than there spoilt children

 

[ControlDenied]

^ as usual, zophy says it best./...as most french plastic-transsex internet chameleons do..

 

[B9]

Merci beaucoup CD

 

[ratgirl69]

i live in texas and i must say that when someone needs some work done cheap - their first thought is to hire some illegeal aliens to do it for them... now there are a lot of illegeal aliens here ready and willing to do this work - and they work cheaper than the 'white' people and often have families to support and work very hard for their money and definitely do not pay taxes, etc. also they send a big chunk of their money to their home country every week.

so is it wrong to hire these people? sometimes i think so. but then some of these people are my friends and i hate to see them without work and food

btw - i have hired these people in the past. right now though we have been using a maintenance man that is white and charges more and is much slower and doesn't get near as much done - but we also care that he has money and food (and he takes care of his aging mother) - so we hire him and let him live for free on our property in his RV.

he also doesn't pay taxes - we pay him under the table - cash.

which is better - hiring illegeal aliens for cheaper who work harder? or hiring him because he is a citizen even though he doesn't pay taxes?

hard call IMO

 

[boredandfloored]

re: do the rich steal from the poor? capitalism.

didnt read all the previous posts, but agree with saxoney "he used a pink floyd lyric" yes the rich steal from the poor. money is power and he who controls the money "the most money" either work for this, will have the most influence. in capitalism they will bend the laws for profit "and by rich i dont mean michel jackson and r kelly" this also goes for socialist countrys and espicially communism. capitalism can be abused the rich will always strive for increased wealth thats good ole greed right there mm hmm.

to answer your question yes it is possible to become wealthy without profiting from someone elses work, but it really depends on what field or what you are trying to succede in. capitalism is the best economic system so far concieved on earth 'a both bold and substiantiable claim". to bad it is not practiced in its ideal form anywhere on earth. america is not truly capitalist. the govornment is to closely involved in economic affairs. if anything were leaning more and more towards mercantilism ie bailouts with the gov feeling the need to favor all of the failing domestic companies ie; a govornment which caters to the needs of the wealthy rather than the people of a republic.

in americas case our main problem lies with a corrupt political machine, and a consequently ineffective govornment which has found its way into our economic system. debate, agree, disagree. capitalism isnt to blame for the exploitation of the poor. economic change would not affect the wealthiest top 5 percent. reveloution you say? when fire ants kill an ant eater maybe.

 

[qwe]

True - BUT, if, hypothetically, he DOES know of a single solitary rich person who is NOT like that, then that would diminish the strength of his argument that "EVERY rich person . . . "

well of course some rich people are exceptions

i believe he meant "virtually all". personally i'd change it to "sombunall" (some but not all)

 

[EA-1475]

well of course some rich people are exceptions

i believe he meant "virtually all". personally i'd change it to "sombunall" (some but not all)

OK.
For people who are saying that all (or nearly all) rich people came upon their wealth through deception and evil, I ask two questions.

1. Why do you think it is impossible for someone to became wealthy honestly?
2. In your opinion, how much wealth can someone aquire honestly. Or rather, at what point would someone have to resort to subterfuge to make more money?

 

[Amebix]

http://flag.blackened.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=70060

 

[EA-1475]

^^^
The flaw in that cartoon is that it does not mention RISK.
If the worker makes $50 worth of product and is paid $15, the boss makes $35 profit and the worker only $15.

However, this is only if people actually buy the product.

If for some reason, no one buys the product for some reason, the boss loses $15 but the worker still makes $15.

 

[3DayRun]

Not only that, but nobody is stopping that worker from buying and owning something himself and then making profit off of it.

How can money be evil too? That's complete bullshit. Money just is a representation of a value put on something. It's an inanimate object. Give me a break.

 

[L O V E L I F E]

^^^

The flaw in that cartoon is that it does not mention RISK.
If the worker makes $50 worth of product and is paid $15, the boss makes $35 profit and the worker only $15.

However, this is only if people actually buy the product.

If for some reason, no one buys the product for some reason, the boss loses $15 but the worker still makes $15.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you!

FINALLY, someone who brings up the most important point in the thread.

Bill Gates dropped out of fucking Harvard, when NOT dropping out could have left him myriad opportunities to make a nice income with the status of being a Harvard graduate for the rest of his life, relatively risk-free.

But he didn't.

He dropped out, he risked potentially being poor and being labeled a failure, and for this huge risk which he undertook, he was deservedly rewarded, as his contributions not only added a tremendous amount of value, but further, he showed others that they too could add a tremendous amount of value if they were willing and able to come up with innovative ideas, and then take whatever risks are necessary in order to implement them.

Bravo, entrepreneurs!

And jeers to those who don't appreciate just how fucking much we, as a society, benefit from them.

 

[Fjones]

I am appalled by the hatred and animosity toward capitalism on this thread. It is rather easy for people here in this thread to give away other people's money, isn't it?

I saw some people ask Lovelife, "Have you ever been poor?"

A) That is irrelevant. His ability to make a cogent argument does not depend on his social status and,
B) Even if it were relevant, couldn't he just shoot back with, "have you ever been rich?"

If the suggestion is that he cannot adequately evaluate the needs of the poor having not ever been poor, then couldn't one likewise point out that most people cannot understand what it is like to have earned a fortune through hard work only to have the government take much of it away?

We already have a progressive tax system, so I don't really see what the problem is. Most people here oppose the drug war because they believe the government should not be legislating morality; yet, when it comes to wealth redistribution, people here on BL seem to think it should be illegal for a wealthy person to be greedy.

This is nonsense. Besides, if Bill gates gives billions o charity and another billionaire doesn't, what's the problem? I don't hear Bill gates complaining, do you? Are the people who receive Bill Gates' millions complaining? I don't think they are, or at least they shouldn't be.

Some people give more, some people give less. JUST LIKE ALL OF US. How many of us have given everything we can to help the poor? I suspect few of us have, perhaps none of us. That is the way things work in life.

Thank you Lovelife and EA1475 for providing some good counterpoints to the anti-capitalist views.

 

[yougene]

FINALLY, someone who brings up the most important point in the thread.

Bill Gates dropped out of fucking Harvard, when NOT dropping out could have left him myriad opportunities to make a nice income with the status of being a Harvard graduate for the rest of his life, relatively risk-free.

But he didn't.

He dropped out, he risked potentially being poor and being labeled a failure, and for this huge risk which he undertook, he was deservedly rewarded, as his contributions not only added a tremendous amount of value, but further, he showed others that they too could add a tremendous amount of value if they were willing and able to come up with innovative ideas, and then take whatever risks are necessary in order to implement them.

Just how big of a risk is a man who could afford going to Harvard in the first place be taking here? I doubt his health, food, or shelter were on the line because of his decision.

Most of the "value" created by Microsoft isn't from technological innovation, it's from questionable business practices. Stealing technology from other companies, and then stifling competition via questionable litigation and vendor lock-out has hurt society as much as it has contributed to it.

Also just how much risk does an entrepreneur hold personally? Much of the risk is decoupled by various laws and rules. If an entrepreneur runs a company into the ground, the company goes bankrupt but he doesn't. What then of the workers?


I'm also a firm believer in capitalism and the entrepreneurial spirit but I can't deny the problems in society. The business world has all sorts of serious problems. I don't think most of them are an inherent to capitalism though. It's a pathological capitalism within a specific moment in history.

 

[L O V E L I F E]

Also just how much risk does an entrepreneur hold personally?

Something to ponder:

Without the risk-taker, VIRTUALLY NOTHING GREAT EVERT GETS ACCOMPLISHED.

WITH the risk-taker, this is what happens:

When he loses big, HE loses big.

But when he (for example, Steve Jobs) wins big, not only does HE win big, but nearly all of us (we had rotary phones without call waiting 25 years ago, and had to wait until Monday when the library opened if we wanted a trivia question on a Saturday answered, remember?) WIN BIG.

Are there some flaws with the current system, which have led to ridiculous bailouts to some of the most unreasonable risk-takers of our generation?

Sure.

But a lack of risk-taking would have us living in the Dark Ages.

I'll take the current system over Socialism every day.

 

[RedLeader]

Props to Fjones, LOVELIFE and EA1475 in this thread.

 

[EA-1475]

(we had rotary phones without call waiting 25 years ago, and had to wait until Monday when the library opened if we wanted a trivia question on a Saturday answered, remember?) WIN BIG.

Not only that but when you got to the library, you had to look through big fucking drawers of cards to find the book you wanted.

Ah the Dewey Decimal system...

 

[ebola?]

I think that LOVELIFE is advocating effective strategies for personal behavior, but I don't think that he has a good picture of how capitalism functions as a system.

I'd tear more into the nitty-gritty, but I am already doing so elsewhere in CEP.

ebola