N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
Any drugs that increase REM fraction of sleep?
dubmachine
Bluelighter
LoveDuck said:
I'm just a layman, but I can't sleep or dream for shite when I take Midrin. which has dichloralphenazone(sp), which is very closely related to Chloral hydrate, from what I've read.
No, I don't think nuts is the correct term here. nuts. I would bet experienced would be a more apt description.
I wonder if anyone here has ever had a true problem with sleep. Sounds more like some people spend an inordinant amount of time reading studies and looking for a kick than truly enhancing sleep. I realize the OP was asking about increasing REM sleep.
Although I can't say for certain that the tricyclics enhance REM in 'normal' people, it is well known to enhance deep (stage 3&4) sleep and by implication may increase REM at least in those with bonafide sleep disturbances.
At 47 I hardly qualify as a 'kid', but thanks for the compliment![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
However, I would love to give Ramelteon a try. Alas, there is no mention of enhanced REM in the posted study. Increases in total sleep time and reduction of sleep latency are good enough for me though.
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dubmachine
Bluelighter
edarrin said:
I actually got to try an 8mg Ramelton last night. I've been needing ambien or some concoction of Trazodone, Risperdal and ambien. Ramelton kicked ass. I actually felt sleepy, a natural clean genuine sleepy, not sedated. hit pretty quickly too(20-30min). Almost started feeling mildly "fun", but there was no way to stay awake on it.
To stay on topic, REM action was pretty good, had some nice wacky dreams.
me2beail.com
Greenlighter
After much research...
There are only a few medications that I know to increase rem sleep. Serzone, aricept and maybe one other anticholergenic. Remeron increases slow wave 3 and 4 but decreases REM. Some studies have show melatonin to increase rem sleep by 3 minutes a night. The danger caused by melatonin use does not outweigh the 3 minute benefit.
Most importantly, melatonin is a hormone. The effect of taking any hormone is to reduce the gland's own output of it. Taking a hormone can become a downward spiral of the gland, which was unable to produce the hormone, and now becomes even less able to produce it. One animal study found that the effects of chronic(i.e everyday, ongoing, long term) melatonin treatment are similar to those of removing the pineal gland.(93
http://www.customhps.com/Pres_Foc_Pineal.htm
I do not mean to come off wrong, but you really should do your research before giving advice that may screw someone up.
There is a new drug being studied, I believe in Europe, that will be released in 2010, which increases slow wave and rem sleep significantly. I anxiously look forward to a successful pass by the FDA. However, I suspect that they will find some reason to fail it.
You gu
Hammilton
Bluelighter
any info? That's a little vague.
I didn't search very hard, but I don't see evidence that melatonin production is decreased with its use.
However, when you say hormone, I think perhaps you're thinking of the more commonly mentioned hormonal steroids (ie: testosterone, estrogen) which declining endogenous production is definitely a side effect from use.
Limpet_Chicken
Bluelighter
What about that drug, gaboxadol that got canned, I read that was shown to increase REM duration somewhere.
Muscimol derivative, or structural relative, and given my experience of Amanita Muscaria, I can well believe it.
Why, slightly offtopic, was it binned in development? toxicity?
monstanoodle
Bluelight Crew
I don't know anything about that, but I do know that when I combine Diphenhydramine with Valerian, I do get some crazy dreams.
To the OP - This could be a good combination to try out. Works for me 
The Monkey Mantra
Bluelighter
Remeron is the most AMAZING dream stimulant you could possibly imagine. After about a week at the 15-30 mg dose range, the daytime drowsiness starts to clear up, leaving you with nights filled with adventurous, richly ornamented and plotted dreams with characters, storylines, everything. The best part is, if you get up to take a piss, usually you can close your eyes and go right back into whatever you were dreaming about!
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
Indeed, remeron dreams are quite vivid and complex. They are also unusually memorable.
Remeron seems to be a under-utilized sleep aid, and tolerance to the sleep inducing properties does not seem to form...
Hammilton
Bluelighter
Limpet_Chicken
Bluelighter
Rediculous imo, if its good enough for the Z drugs.....
While on Mirtazapine I felt like I was living two seperate lives: One while awake and one while asleep. Its impossible to tell how long you dream for, but I literally felt like I was dreaming from the moment I closed my eyes to the moment my alarm went off.
My sleep requirement went up though, I would have to sleep 9-10 hours to feel fully rested rather than 8. I eventually stopped taking it because of this.
GHB seems to increase REM sleep in me. Even wile on stimulants it makes me sleep 3 hours and dream. the shit with GHB is that i always wake up after the 3 hours (even when not on stimulants) and can not sleep again. The only chance to sleep more is than to take more ghb to sleep again. but after two 3 hours sleep times i am ready to work or learn again. good for exams but not very healty, i guess.
Artificial Emotion
Bluelighter
Don't. Post. Damn. Sources. Never. EVER!!
One drug that has gone into disuse over the last several decades is chloral hydrate. This is one of the oldest hypnotic medications and most recently received negative publicity as being a causative agent in Anna Nicole Smith's death. It used to be used in children before procedures up until probably the mid 90s and in sleep studies and I believe some EEG studies. Personally, I have found it to be an effective hypnotic with fewer next day lethargy than some of the more popular ypnotics, though I haven't been Rxed this in over a decade.
Anyway, my point. Though it doesn't increase REM fraction of sleep. I remember reading somewhere (I believe it was in the 8th edition of Goodman & Gilman that it was unique in that it had a negligible effect on the suppression of REM. Though its discontibuation syndrome is prety severe, the REM rebound seen with other hypnotics of the benzo and barbituate classess with discontinuation after a couple weeks were absent with this drug. At any rate, I think that this drug would be a good and cheap alternative to some of the drugs out there currently in use like the z drugs, benzos, sedating antidepressives, Rozerem, ect...
Tried remeron (mitrazepine) last night. It worked great- I slept deeper and more soundly than I have in years. But the extreme residual sedation I've felt all day long makes me feel like the cure is worse than the disease.
In my opinion if a drug isn't new or a celebrity happens to die due to complications surrounding its use doesn't mean its necessarily obsolete. The fact that a drug has been around for a long time and withstood the test of time should be seen as an asset rather than a liability.
I think that Chloral hydrate can be very dangerous if misused. But I think another reason it has gone into disuse is an issue of lack of profitability- its cheap and easy to make so would not be a big money maker for big pharma. But the minimal effect on the REM fraction of sleep architecture is definitely something that should be investigated further unless its has been disproven by studies released after the 8th edition. I think this would be an interesting avenue for research and this drug should be used more to treat short term insomnia because it is more effective than the z-drugs or Rozerem in my opinion.
ducednig
Bluelighter
i thought benzos were suppose to increase REM
daddysgone
Bluelighter
A quote from your post about chloral hydrate:
"But I think another reason it has gone into disuse is an issue of lack of profitability- its cheap and easy to make so would not be a big money maker for big pharma."
Since when are "cheap and easy to make", considered negatives when it comes to profitability?? Pharma companies love to take drugs that are cheap and easy to make and then mark them up several thousand percent.-DG
dread
Bluelighter
Yes, but only if they can slap on a patent so they can have a monopoly on the drug, to prevent anyone else from getting a share from their profits.
Cheap & easy to make + unpatentable = not worth it for big pharma.
