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Conversion of 4-AcO- into 4-Ho Tryptamines

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In the big and dandy 4-aco dmt thread if I recall correctly, someone tried this conversion. They said it turned the solution blue, but it was still active, and they felt a difference.
 
Potentially relevant info from the B&D 4-AcO-DMT thread:

Each paragraph is a different post said:
Also, question. I wanted to see if I could convert some into psilocin by hydrolysis. I dissolved about.. ~4 mols of NaOH (2 mols for the fumarate then the acetyl group + extra) in a small cup of water (room temp) then dissolved however many mg's of 4-aco-dmt fumarate in there and stirred it.. let sit for a little over an hour. Drank it down.. *think* i noticed a difference - it came on much faster (could feel it in 10 mins) I think it was partially but not completely converted into psilocin.

^By the way, dont drink NaOH water, you arent going to get a ph of 7 unless something reacts with it, NaOH is incredibly bad for you to drink.

BTW: I wonder that nobody, who tried alkaline ester hydrolysis, reportrd from a change in color. I'd suppose, the free indolol should quickly form colored quinones or polymers in alkaline solutions. But maybe I am wrong.

…about hydrloysis.. I have had a small amount of 4-aco-mipt (don't know if it was fb or salt) in a small water vial solution and within days it did turn dark brown. I wonder if putting some dh20 in a small glass test tube or similar, and a little 4-aco-dmt (NaOH dissolved in water first), and just kept heating it with an alcohol lamp? You think it would turn "blueish"?

[This post is probably where you heard about the “blue solution,” DivineMomenT]In regards to degradation, I had some diluted in tap water that was stored in less than optimal conditions that turned blue, and I threw it out (I wish I didn't). I've had some more stored in the fridge in tap water for monthsa and I suspect it will be stable for quite a while. Before I take it I might mix it with some alcohol just in case. I'm aware distilled water is a much better choice, but I expected to use it quickly which turned out not to be case.
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Mjäll said:
My 4-AcO-DMT trips have been very short in duration. Normal functionality in 5 hours, I would say (with some effort).
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Mine too... 4-AcO-DMT is shorter than 4-HO-DMT for me by a good margin. The AcO is about 2.5 hours... extremely short. Psilocin is more like 4 for me. Mushrooms last like 5.

I wonder what it is about 4-AcO-DMT that makes it so variable among different users? Some people report that it takes 2 hours to fully come up and lasts 8, and is like a gentler, slower psilocin. But for me and others it comes up really, really fast and is shorter than psilocin and resembles DMT more than mushrooms.
 
^Wow! That much faster than psilocin? I guess that throws the "variability in in vivo conversion rates to psilocin" idea out the window. I think it's safe to say at this point that 4-AcO-DMT is active in its own right, but I had thought the shortest onsets and durations of 4-AcO for any one individual would, at their fastest, still be a little longer than 4-ho. In terms of onset/duration, my reactions to the two are in line with these assumptions.
 
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Yeah that's strange Xorkoth, I think you have the shortest 4-aco-DMT trips I've heard of.

I find it lasts about 1 hour longer than Psilocin. And mushrooms last an additional hour, depending on their variable speed of onset.

Psilocin takes 3-5 minutes for first alerts when swallowed with juice. 4-aco-DMT takes maybe ten minutes and an extra half hour to really peak.

I would gladly accept either one if I had to choose one psychedelic to use for the rest of my life.
 
bluedolphin said:
^^
I still call it a tie. Had one of the best trips of my life on 30mg 4-aco-DMT not too long ago.

I guess further experimentation is in order ;)
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true that my friend, true that. Many more evenings squirming in pleasure (on both!) are in order :D
 
Yeah, I would be happy with either but the reason I prefer psilocin is because the AcO is so short for me that it's a bit like a DMT-esque rocket ride sometimes and it can be difficult to utilize because it's kind of incapacitating.

psood0nym said:
^Wow! That much faster than psilocin? I guess that throws the "variability in in vivo conversion rates to psilocin" idea out the window. I think it's safe to say at this point that 4-AcO-DMT is active in its own right
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Yeah, that's why I've always thought the whole simple pro-drug of psilocin idea was false. It just doesn't make sense with my experience of the chemical.
 
^ wait is that a typo or do you feel the aco-dmt is shorter than the ho-DMT? Really!?

if you didn't typo, that seems really weird...I've found the opposite to be true, the psilocin is an up and down trip...the aco is a lot smoother and more drawn out.
 
4-aco-x transform in the body in 4-ho-x?

Somebody can indicate me where I can find information that confirms this, in the places that found this information, not this confirmed, they are only suppositions .

Thank you .
 
AFAIK that's all it is: a supposition. I too would be interested in seeing a source if the case is otherwise though.
 
quite a few consistent PD contributors have disputed this claim IIRC. I'm sure there's discussion on it somewhere.
 
Gaian Planes said:
^ wait is that a typo or do you feel the aco-dmt is shorter than the ho-DMT? Really!?

if you didn't typo, that seems really weird...I've found the opposite to be true, the psilocin is an up and down trip...the aco is a lot smoother and more drawn out.
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Nope, not a typo. I meant to say that. The 4-AcO is definitely shorter and faster for me. This is the primary reason that I dispute the claim that it is just a prodrug of 4-HO-DMT, and is in fact why I have generally tried to crusade to the community that the 4-HO-T of any base tryptamine is not the same drug as its 4-AcO counterpart. I think it's more complex than just a conversion in vivo to the hydroxy.
 
Thanks for that post. It is indeed presented as fact, even moreso than the whole DMT-production thing, which is why it's been a sort of crusade of mine to try to inform the public that at least there's a possibility it's not fact. My expriences most assuredly point to it being just plain false.

The whole "esters of 4-HO tryptamines covert to the hydroxy in vivo" thing was an assumption made by Shulgin, and was not ever proven. I say esters and not 4-AcO-tryptamines because people generally assume that 4-PO-DMT (psilocybin) also converts to psilocin in the body, which I am betting is simply untrue as well. I am betting this because I have had a number of trials with synthetic, pure 4-HO-DMT and it feels quite significantly different than mushrooms. Although of course there are strong similarities, considering psilocin is the main constituent of mushrooms, they really are not the same drug at all.
 
yeah who really knows. Until some legitimate laboratory works on this problem, then we will likely just have the suppositions of intelligent people such as Shulgin and others (some of whom post on this board!).
 
Can anyone point me to a source where Shulgin discusses this? I've been (distractedly) leafing through TiHKAL to no avail.
 
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal16.shtml

In the extensions and commentary section: "On the topic of psilocybin and psilocin, one of the most frequent questions I am asked is, "Isn't it true that psilocybin is immediately converted to psilocin in the blood stream, and so the two chemicals are in essence identical, molecule for molecule?" At this moment I always suppress a brief sense of mental fragmentation, with the automatic reply, "Where is the evidence that psilocybin is converted to psilocin in man?" If it exists, I certainly do not know of it. This clears my conscience. I really do not know the answer. But I have a tremendously strong suspicion that it really does."
 
ikkyu said:
Can anyone point me to a source where Shulgin discusses this? I've been (distractedly) leafing through TiHKAL to no avail.
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In the section for 4-Ho-DMT, he discusses psilocin, psilocibin, and the acetate esters giving the impression they are the same....
 
SomeKindaLove said:
Indeed. I don't think we need to stray any further, which definitely include advice of a more practical/"recipie" (God I hate that term applied to drugs, LOL) nature. Therea re other forums (one in particular) where this discussion would be more appreciated, I think.
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its called a protocol :)

You also must ask what the Equilibrium constant for this equation is, because you will most certainly have unreacted compound int he mixture
 
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