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Conversion of 4-AcO- into 4-Ho Tryptamines

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I only know basic chemistry, so I can't say for sure that there isn't some sort of conversion in the body. What I do know is that effects I get from 4-aco-dmt and 4-ho-dmt are very different. The visuals are different, more "dark" with 4-aco-dmt. The body high is different, energetic with 4-ho-dmt and sedated with 4-aco-dmt. Body high from 4-aco reminds me of benzo's mixed with opiate, body high from 4-ho feels more like mdma or other psychedelic stimulant. Anyone who thinks there is a conversion from 4-ho-dmt to 4-aco-dmt in the body should just try equivalent doses of each, that's if your resourceful enough to obtain both substances.....
 
one question... It´s true that 4-aco-dmt can degrades accidentally to 4-ho-dmt in some percentaje with too air, moisture or light??
 
Fluoride in 4-AcO-DMT solution ft. AcO conversion

Hello. I just recently bought an air tight jar and some distilled h20 for my 4-aco dmt. I was pretty much set until I read a label on the H20 that said "Added flouride." It is some water from wal-mart that had a baby on it.


Would this do anything to my substance if I were to put it in the H20?


:D ty
 
Im pretty sure 4-aco-dmt degrades to 4-OH-dmt pretty quickly in solution. Not sure if the flouride would affect it tho.
 
Well I'm almost completely sure that the fluoride (dissolved sodium or calcium fluoride) is pretty unreactive when it comes to 4-AcO-DMT and other tryptamines / PEA's. Even alcohols like x-HO-x-T's shouldn't react with it.
The fluoride is apparently sometimes added for dental advantages.

So you should be in the clear. But because chemistry is such a complex and flaky thing personally I wouldn't even take this miniscule risk and get some pure unadulterated water. Depending where you live tap water would even be safer. Because chemical compounds can sometimes exist for 0,001% in another form and if this form is reactive it would mean you get degradation, however slow it might be it could be faster than with just pure water.

So in conclusion: should be quite fine. But just make a habit out of using pure H2O and alcohol or use vodka.


edit 1: Matterofperception, I really don't think it is easy to just deacetylate a compound with nothing but water - you would need acetyltransferase (or transacetylase) in your body to achieve that. [ok so thats false]

edit 2: Having said that, there seem to be some people who notice some general degradation in solution - if it would turn to 4-HO-DMT then it would still be active but something else just might be happening. The reports are vague, some notice diminishing effects per dose and others notice no degradation after months of liquid storage.
I would strongly advice to use a good solvent, low temperatures and even take measures against oxygen. You might do well to only dissolve a minimal amount of substance and maybe experiment with an added anti-oxidant like throwing vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in there. I know I will when I get 4-AcO-DMT. There seems to be promise for 4-HO-DMT protection and I suspect the acetyl as well.
 
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matterofperception said:
Im pretty sure 4-aco-dmt degrades to 4-OH-dmt pretty quickly in solution. Not sure if the flouride would affect it tho.
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4-hydroxyindoles & tryptamines (and any esters of above compounds) should be stpored at -4'C and completely dry to prevent any degredation as they are oxidized very easilty to all manner of colourful compounds, Add to that the fact that in solution the phenolic ester will fairly quickly hydrolyse (to psilocin in this case) - try wetting a tablet of aspirin & check it after a day or two; it'll stink of vinegar as the O-acetylsalycilic acid (aspirin) hydrolyses to salycilic acid & acetic acid.

Basically don't make it into a solution until you intend to use it
 
Hold on one sec, what If I put it a high proof alchohol instead of H20? I live in Cali so everclear is something I cant get. :(
 
As a general rule, all compounds are less stable in solution than they are in solid form but this goes a LOT more for those substances that are chemically kind of instable in the first place. (MDMA is extremely stable, it doesn't matter if it lasts 7000 years in solid form or 400 years in a solution so to speak, its still more than a lifetime, untrue for more instable compounds).

I was wrong about stuff before sorry lol but I do believe that going from an ester to an alcohol (e.g. 4-AcO-DMT to 4-HO-DMT) requires a molecule of water - this is called ester hydrolysis - so 100% ethanol should theoretically help. But that is not the main concern, degradation is much sped up by oxygen - hence the suggested oxidation - so oxygen dissolved in your liquid will be bad no matter if you use alcohol or water. I suggested ascorbic acid (vitamin C) which removes the oxygen from the liquid, because I believe there was some success on The Shroomery with this and psilocin dissolved in pure ethanol. No elaborate proof though.
I'm sure you know, by the way, that at least 20% alcohol content in your solution keeps out mold and bacteria so that's always a win. :)
 
It's okay man, I appreciate your replies very much! Anyhow. I guess I have to get a scale, this sucks because now I dont know if ill have money for a big rave coming up at the end of sept. One reason why I bought it! My questions werent answered in the 4-aco-dmt thread fully :( oh well. One more question though, Could I get a .01 scale? or would that just seem foolish?
 
So it is possible to turn my 4-aco-dmt into psilocin by putting it in some water? Is this effective enough to be worthwhile or are there gonna be a bunch of other products formed as well that will contaminate the experience ?

How long would it take for a considerable amount to change over?
 
I was wrong about stuff before sorry lol but I do believe that going from an ester to an alcohol (e.g. 4-AcO-DMT to 4-HO-DMT) requires a molecule of water - this is called ester hydrolysis - so 100% ethanol should theoretically help.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in 100% ethanol (which would btw not be 100% anymore the first time you open the container) it wouldn't necessarily be stable. There could happen some transesterification. That is, the acid of the ester transfering from one alcohol to another, or in this case, from a phenol to an alcohol.

This would leave you with ethyl acetate, 4-ho-dmt, 4-aco-dmt and ethanol in some sort of equilibrium.

I could be wrong about this, I'm no expert on the subject.

So it is possible to turn my 4-aco-dmt into psilocin by putting it in some water?
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Easier way to turn it into psilocin is just eating it. The enzymes in your body will hydrolyze it far quicker than a glass of water... ;)
 
Dread, that is correct what you're saying - I said 100% ethanol should help but that doesn't mean stability. It's theoretically better, not perfect. And I don't know the value that corresponds to the resulting equilibrium, but my expectation is that it matters a great deal. I just asked my chemist friend and he also thinks / is convinced it would help lots.

It would be 'terribly hard' (It would happen spontaneous but what is hard is to monitor the occuring processes without analysis.) to have a controlled hydrolysis into 4-HO-DMT and not have that degrade, no clue how long it would take and if the degradation isn't even faster than the conversion! Then it would just become inactive over time. If you put 4-AcO-DMT in water and an anti-oxidant that would be your best bet to have hydrolysis happen but little oxidation. However once more I have to underline this is theory that would have to be field-tested for effectivity.

(oh also, when this has run its course it will be merged into the Big & Dandy 4-AcO-DMT Thread where this all could have been discussed in the first place ;) oh well, next time then)

S.
 
dread said:
Easier way to turn it into psilocin is just eating it. The enzymes in your body will hydrolyze it far quicker than a glass of water... ;)
Click to expand...

So are you saying in your experience that 4-AcO-DMT feels like a pro-drug for psilocin? I've always thought that the acetylases in our bodies would strip it down to psilocin in the exact same way our phosphorylases are known to turn psilocybin to psilocin in our body.

On wikipedia it lists 4-AcO-DMT as a pro drug for psilocin with identical effects. It's possible that there is a slight difference due to the time it takes for the acetylases to do their thing but in the end they have the same effects.

However on BL and erowid I've read how many people say it has different effect and has it's own flavour separate from 4-HO-DMT. That the 4-AcO-DMT indeed stays 4-AcO-DMT and exhibits it's own unique effect.

I would think it would get broken down by acetylases and is simply a pro-drug, I'm so confused about this issue. :\
 
What about the possibility that it does get broken down to psilocin but at the same time MAO eats it up faster than it can be converted? That way even at the end of the 4-AcO-DMT experience there will still be 4-AcO-DMT left but also some 4-HO-DMT contributes to the trip...
No idea what the exact dynamics would be in this hypothesis but you get the idea.

That kind of explanations always seem like the most elegant ones to me since they account for all reported sides of the discussion (somewhat don't they?).
 
Many people claim that the effects of psilacetin and psilocin are distinct.

Read the the 4-aco-dmt thread. Almost all say it is different. Whether this is due to absorption rate or due to it being able to cross the brain barrier is the question.
 
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