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  • BDD Moderators: notsmokeymcpot42088 | RUC4

Misc Preservation of CWE Codeine in liquid

BK38

BK38

Bluelight Crew
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
16,918
I am prescribed codeine/acetaminophen and I do a cold water extraction. Generally about 240mg at a time is what I extract; I just use normal water. I would like to be able to use the liquid/fast-acting codeine that has been dissolved in water at any time. Is there a way to preserve it? Is it just fine as is?

I know this is a noob Q.
 

Academic paper which provides the solubility of paracetamol (acetaminophen) across a range of temperatures. Be aware that presence of both codeine phosphate and paracetamol depresses the freezing point down to around -5°C.

BE AWARE it is totally impossible to remove all of the parcetamol so the goal of people who perform this risky procedure is to ensure no more than 4 grams of paracetamol are consumed within a single 24 hour period.

Even so, I highly recommend anyone playing around with this kind of thing buy and use a methionine supplement. It appears from historic compound medications that 500mg paracetamol/250mg methionine meant it became impossible to end one's life by eating a box of them although I would not wish to test that logic.

There are enough data-points for you to use graph-paper to draw a solubility curve.

The water-solubility of codeine phosphate I have detailed elsewhere. But you would be amazed at how many people still get this wrong and it's usually fatal. So be really careful and ensure you have the solubility data of all of the excipients as well. It's not a great idea but at least you have reference.
 
4DQSAR said:

Academic paper which provides the solubility of paracetamol (acetaminophen) across a range of temperatures. Be aware that presence of both codeine phosphate and paracetamol depresses the freezing point down to around -5°C.

BE AWARE it is totally impossible to remove all of the parcetamol so the goal of people who perform this risky procedure is to ensure no more than 4 grams of paracetamol are consumed within a single 24 hour period.

Even so, I highly recommend anyone playing around with this kind of thing buy and use a methionine supplement. It appears from historic compound medications that 500mg paracetamol/250mg methionine meant it became impossible to end one's life by eating a box of them although I would not wish to test that logic.

There are enough data-points for you to use graph-paper to draw a solubility curve.

The water-solubility of codeine phosphate I have detailed elsewhere. But you would be amazed at how many people still get this wrong and it's usually fatal. So be really careful and ensure you have the solubility data of all of the excipients as well. It's not a great idea but at least you have reference.
Click to expand...
Thank you for taking the time to answer. Essentially, I'm asking if I can just preserve 300mg codeine in water indefinitely after a CWE. If I can't do it au natural, what steps do I need to take to preserve my codeine tincture? I do understand the risks of acet, but I am diligent with filtration,
 
You cannot filter a compound in solution.

By all means ensure everything you use is pre-chilled. I've watched paracetamol go back into solution as it passed through a room-temperature Buchner funnel.

But just look at how soluble paracetamol is in water at -5°C. Now let's compare that to codeine phosphate:

-5°C twelve parts water (83mg/mL)
0°C ten parts water (100mg/mL)
5°C eight parts water (125mg/mL)
10°C six and a quarter parts of water (160mg/mL)
15°C five parts of water (200mg/mL)
20°C four parts of water (250mg/mL) - considered STP
25°C three and one fifth parts of water (310mg/mL)
30°C two and a half parts of water. (400mg/mL)

Don't forget, the presence of impurities will LOWER the freezing-point of water hence my mentioning -5°C which seems to be where ice begins to form.

But do remember that an average Co-codamol tablet weighs 550-650mg i.e. there are hundreds of milligrams of excipients so while there are ways to keep solvent volume down, most people who 'keep it simple' seem to settle on about 400mL boiling water and use quite a large Buchner funnel and crucially a Pyrex beaker with a pourling lip so that the majority of the paractamol that form an opaque layer on the walls of the beaker as it cools will STAY in the beaker and so you don't end up attempting to filter what could be over 20 grams of mush.

Yes it's slow letting that volume of solution cool is slow but on the plus side, the way the paracetamol crystals form on the walls of the transparent vessel puts me in mind of a lava lamp on Valium.

Heat seems to scare people but you are filtering it once it has cooled i.e. once over 95% of the paracetamol and excipients have formed the pretty crystals so can be removed by decanting thus the volume you are filtering is much smaller.

I provide this information purely as a HR measure.

Better someone provides proper references and a basic set of logical statements which you are able to independently confirm (dry and weigh the paracetamol and excipient left in the beaker for example). But you cannot remove 100% of the paracetamol. I've known people who by (lack of) taste could estimate how much paracetamol was left in solution but don't assume you are similarly a paracetamol sommelier. If you can taste the 'earthy notes' and reliably give the brand, vintage and location on the slope where the tablets were grown then fine, but do not rely on it.

But truly, take methionine. I've seen people die of NAPQI poisoning and it took DAYS.

If you are unsure then don't. It's only codeine which to my mind has an addiction liability out of all proportion to it's analgesic activity. Dihydrocodeine is by far the better analgesic but not many people would even consume it for 'fun'.
 
4DQSAR said:
You cannot filter a compound in solution.

By all means ensure everything you use is pre-chilled. I've watched paracetamol go back into solution as it passed through a room-temperature Buchner funnel.

But just look at how soluble paracetamol is in water at -5°C. Now let's compare that to codeine phosphate:

-5°C twelve parts water (83mg/mL)
0°C ten parts water (100mg/mL)
5°C eight parts water (125mg/mL)
10°C six and a quarter parts of water (160mg/mL)
15°C five parts of water (200mg/mL)
20°C four parts of water (250mg/mL) - considered STP
25°C three and one fifth parts of water (310mg/mL)
30°C two and a half parts of water. (400mg/mL)

Don't forget, the presence of impurities will LOWER the freezing-point of water hence my mentioning -5°C which seems to be where ice begins to form.

But do remember that an average Co-codamol tablet weighs 550-650mg i.e. there are hundreds of milligrams of excipients so while there are ways to keep solvent volume down, most people who 'keep it simple' seem to settle on about 400mL boiling water and use quite a large Buchner funnel and crucially a Pyrex beaker with a pourling lip so that the majority of the paractamol that form an opaque layer on the walls of the beaker as it cools will STAY in the beaker and so you don't end up attempting to filter what could be over 20 grams of mush.

Yes it's slow letting that volume of solution cool is slow but on the plus side, the way the paracetamol crystals form on the walls of the transparent vessel puts me in mind of a lava lamp on Valium.

Heat seems to scare people but you are filtering it once it has cooled i.e. once over 95% of the paracetamol and excipients have formed the pretty crystals so can be removed by decanting thus the volume you are filtering is much smaller.

I provide this information purely as a HR measure.

Better someone provides proper references and a basic set of logical statements which you are able to independently confirm (dry and weigh the paracetamol and excipient left in the beaker for example). But you cannot remove 100% of the paracetamol. I've known people who by (lack of) taste could estimate how much paracetamol was left in solution but don't assume you are similarly a paracetamol sommelier. If you can taste the 'earthy notes' and reliably give the brand, vintage and location on the slope where the tablets were grown then fine, but do not rely on it.

But truly, take methionine. I've seen people die of NAPQI poisoning and it took DAYS.

If you are unsure then don't. It's only codeine which to my mind has an addiction liability out of all proportion to it's analgesic activity. Dihydrocodeine is by far the better analgesic but not many people would even consume it for 'fun'.
Click to expand...
Here is my process and you can maybe let me know if I am doing something wrong...

  • I thoroughly pulverize 10 x 30mg/500mg Codeine/Apap pills (300mg codeine/5g Apap total + binders etc)
  • I combine the powder in a jam jar with 300ml of room temperature water (about 20 degrees Celsius I believe)
  • I agitate the jar with the powder/water thoroughly (shaking it like a maniac for 5 minutes or so)
  • I place the jar in the freezer for about an hour (not to the point where it freezes)
  • I take the chilled jar with the layers quite clearly separated; careful to keep it relatively level
  • I pour this slowly through a wet down coffee filter in a standard funnel which deposits the filtered liquid in a glass.
  • I collect the liquid post-filtration (which is close to, if not completely clear) and discard everything caught by the filter.
  • I consume the clear, codeine laced liquid.
My question is, first, am I doing it right? It seems to work really well, but maybe I'm making mistakes? The second question is if I can keep this liquid stored to use when I need it right away? Do I need to take any particular precautions to keep it from spoiling?
 
4DQSAR said:
Well, evidence suggests not.
Click to expand...
Ok. Nevermind. I'll take what advice you have given. I guess I'm just not as scientifically adept as you. I was just trying to see if my methodology was flawed and if I could preserve the liquid end-product.

Have a nice day...
 
Hey @BK38 I see you have already had help from our pharmacology swat team @4DQSAR

Codeine Sulfate in water of normal, average Ph (tap water, bottled water), stored away from light and extreme temperature (aka on your shelf) will last several decades and maintain potency.

I do not have the science, but from what I have read, it seems like ~50 years is when you start seeinf degradation with these things, however we know medicine from WW2 for instance, if undamaged and stored properly, often maintains a large part of its original potency.

For trivia purposes, you may be thinkinh of Heroin. See, Heroin pretty rapidly degrades to Morphine in solution, which halves its potency (if injected. Oral Heroin degrades to Morphine through first pass metabolism, making this facf irrelevant for oral users).

I always err on the side of caution and keep important stuff in the fridge.
 
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