Lysergamides LSI, Ancient LSD, Secret of the Eleusis Kykeon and Vedic SOMA

[donotdothis]

Yes Machine_Elf23, as matter of fact Red22 has done extensive research on how the Greeks could have used wood ash to eliminate the toxic alkaloids in purpurea but be left with non-toxic LSA (then convert to LSI brew). Other than that, there is the non-toxic claviceps paspali which infects barley grass and paspalum grass.

If you look into teotlaqualli, it was very similar.

 

[Allylbenzene]

So what would it [aldehyde] react with? The amide group.
...
Why does it work anyways in that one publication tregar and Allylbenzene like to cite? (https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/ja01335a085) Because it really only works if you push things enough, by using anhydrous conditions, heat and long reaction times which limits the scope in such a way to (in my opinion)

Allow me to expand the scope on aldehyde–amide rxns, at least some additional literature context, perhaps someone with the appropriate equipment & skillset will investigate the LSA scenario. Originally posted on thevespiary:

Spoiler: amide/aldehyde condensations

The condensation of aldehydes with amides: Part I. The condensation of salicylaldehyde
Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. (Math. Sci.) 7, 361–368 (1938).
doi: 10.1007/BF03045403

The condensations of aldehydes with acid amides have been studied by a very large number of workers and the literature is extensive. Often the condensation is brought about by merely heating the aldehyde with the amide alone, in other cases condensing agents of several kinds have been used, such as, hydrogen chloride, potassium hydroxide, potassium carbonate, diethylamine, triethylamine, sulphuric acid dilute, anhydrous sodium acetate with, or without, acetic anhydride. Frequently, the condensation has been carried out without a solvent.

The condensation of aldehydes with amides: Part II. The condensation of cinnamaldehyde
Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. (Math. Sci.) 7, 376–380 (1938).
doi: 10.1007/BF03045405

As lar as we are aware, there has been only one such condensation reported, and that is by Gupta, of cinnamaldehyde with phenylacetamide, brought about without any condensing or catalytic agent, by merely heating the two together, and resulting in the production of cinnamylidene-bisphenylacetamide. In the present paper, the condensations of this aldehyde are studied with four amides, namely, phenylacetamide, acetamide, propionamide and benzamide, under several different conditions of temperature, molecular proportions and catalytic influences. The condensations in all cases take place and produce the cinnamylidene-bisamides. The yields are fair and at times good, but are not generally as good as were noted with salicylaldehyde in Part 1.

The condensation of aldehydes with amides. Part V. Of p-hydroxybenzaldehyde
Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. (Math. Sci.) 10, 282 (1939).
doi: 10.1007/BF03170451

p-hydroxybenzaldehyde condenses readily with formamide, acetamide, propionamide, benzamide and phenylacetamide, and the products are the corresponding p-hydroxybenzylidene-amides, as in the cases of the o- and m-hydroxybenzaldehydes. The condensations are brought about by heating the aldehyde with the amide for 4-5 hours at 130C, in the presence of absence of a trace of organic bases like pyridine and piperidine. The presence of the base improved the yield only slightly (contrast salicylaldehyde) and compare m-hydroxybenzaldehyde). The yields, however, were uniformly very good, never being less than 60% of the theoretical, and reaching up to 92% as the highest...

The condensation of aldehydes with amides: Part VII. The condensation of piperonal
Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. (Math. Sci.) 14, 18–24 (1941).
doi: 10.1007/BF03049118

Piperonal condenses best when heated without any other condensing reagent, with seven of the common amides, giving characteristic piperonyl bisamides. It does not condense with formamide

Condensation of aldehydes with amides: Part XII. Condensation of benzaldehyde and o-chlorobenzaldehyde
Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. (Math. Sci.) 24, 487 (1946).
doi: 10.1007/BF03176919

The condensation of benzaldehyde and o-chlorobenzaldehyde with several amides has been studied, in the presence as well as in the absence of pyridine. The base slightly increased the yield in many cases. The rise of temperature as well as the prolongation of heating raised the yield more effectively. All the products were the corresponding bisamides. The presence of chlorine on the aromatic ring of the aldehyde, had the expected tendency to increase the yield, particularly in the condensations with benzamide, propionamide and n-heptamide. Condensations with formamide, as has been the general experience, did not give good yields; in all other cases, the yields were good, starting from 30% and reaching up to 86% in some cases.

Condensation of aldehydes with amides: Part XIV. Condensation of n-heptaldehyde
Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. 27, 196 (1948).
doi: 10.1007/BF03174832

In the papers so far published in this series, the condensation and the conditions of condensation of eighteen aldehydes with more or less common amides have been studied. Almost all the aldehydes have been aromatic: cinnamaldehyde and dihydrocinnamaldehyde being the only exceptions, in the sense that, though each contains a benzene ring, the aldehyde group is not situated on the ring but is on the side chain...

Condensation of aldehydes with amides: Part XVII. Of 5-chloro- and 3,5-dichlorosalicylaldehydes
Proc. Indian Acad. Sci. (Math. Sci.) 29, 56 (1949).
doi: 10.1007/BF03172438

Usually the highest yields were obtained at 100–110° and in the absence of any condensing agent.

This is a reaction that is not really taught in the standard ochem curriculum because for the most part it is not really relevant. Why? Because the nitrogen electron lone pair in amides is conjugated with the amide carbonyl and thus not available for nucleophilic attack on the aldehyde or ketone carbonyl, making this reaction extremely unlikely.

Clearly someone at the Indian National Science Academy(?) was set on exploring the amide/aldehyde condensation back in the 1930s & 1940s.

Proceedings of the Indian National Science Academy is a peer-reviewed journal, publishing original research and reviews across various scientific disciplines. The journal has a rich history, dating back to its inception in 1935.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Let's not forget the very real possibility of in-vivo rxn/adduct formation; after all, excluding a possible scenario before it's been (dis)proven isn't reasonable.

And besides even if you were able to form these N-acyl hemiaminals (like LSH is one), I'd be surprised of them being pharmacologically relevant as anything but a prodrug as they'd very rapidly degrade in the aqueous soup that is your body.

I think downwardsfromzero (dmt-nexus) outlined it quite well:

This was one of the more visual attempts with natural lysergamide-containing seeds. The experience followed a night involving the consumption of a significant amount of brandy, thus there was an incontestable residue of acetaldehyde in my body.

The seeds themselves, being HBWR, were much more likely to have contained LSA as the principal alkaloid; they will not have been particularly fresh. Although the inference counts as purely anecdotal, I feel it supports at least one of these ideas:

• ...that the 1-acetaldehyde adduct of LSA (or, possibly from what we've learned so far, iso-LSA) is likely to be more of a visionary entheogen than plain LSA itself.
• ...that post-alcoholic acidity in the body promotes the formation of the more visionary iso-LSA from the LSA equilibrium mixture in vivo.
• ...that under physiological conditions, acetaldehyde inhibits the breakdown of LSH such that - in the aforementioned instance - sufficient LSH reached the appropriate receptor sites to produce a mild but significant entheogenic experience.
• ...and/or...:
• ...that, under physiological conditions, acetaldehyde reacts with LSA at the amide nitrogen to (re-)form LSH.

While I consider the last option the least likely, and in the past I have argued against the possibility of it happening, it's still not something I would discount entirely. Still, I wouldn't bank on it and would advise all readers that acetaldehyde conversion of seed extracts containing lysergamide are best carried out in vitro as ethanol and acetaldehyde present health hazards when ingested!

The acetaldehyde adduct would be C2H5O, as CH3COH attached at the indolic nitrogen - another 1-hydroxyethyl group, just like in LSH. From what you describe, this seems like an argument for soaking one's N¹-unsubstituted lysergamides in cold peppermint sherry for a while before consumption. Would this also include tryptamines such as DMT-containing potions for oral consumption, one might wonder? And what about psiloc(yb)in?

As I've mentioned, my most successful plant-derived lysergamide experience - in dreams, of course - albeit with HBWR, coincided with intake of a fairly large quantity of brandy which, in all likelihood, produced a significant level of acetaldehyde within my body, exposing the plant lysergamides to the correct conditions (as reported in the Austin & Fraenkel-Conrat PNAS paper) within my stomach for the putative 1-(1-hydroxyethyl) or, rather, it seems, the 1-(1-ethoxyethyl) derivative to be formed. In this case, the effects were clearly stimulating, unlike the sedative effects usually reported for HBWR. I see that brandy weighs in fairly well on the acetaldehyde content scale as well, btw (post #17)

Looking at the PNAS paper, and the molecular structure "indole after p8441", what we appear to get is a 1-(1-ethoxyethyl)indole, with an ethyl group on the oxygen atom. This would be more lipophilic than the 1-(1-hydroxyethyl) derivative, as would, incidentally, the cinnamaldehyde adduct proposed by 69ron. It is only with the combination of both ethanol and acetaldehyde (EDIT: rather. an alcohol and an aldehyde; see below) that we get a stable product. It would seem likely that under mildly acidic conditions ethanol and cinnamaldehyde (or, we might also surmise, any other sufficiently stable, sterically unhindered aldehyde) would also form a stable adduct.

...
And isovaleraldehyde would lead to the production of a 1-(1-ethoxy-3-methyl-1-butyl)indole derivative under this scheme. That'll have to do for now as I need to sleep. [EDIT: also of interest, we see the following: "Reaction mixtures were also prepared using 1-, 3-, and 4-carbon-chain aldehydes and alcohols. After 24 hr of reaction ... these alternative mixtures were analyzed on the same HPLC system. Reaction products (data not shown) were detected in all cases, except when the aldehyde was formaldehyde, and product retention time increased along with the length of the reagents' carbon chains. The yields decreased with increasing alcohol and aldehyde chain length (methanol/acetaldehyde - butanol/butyraldehyde)."]

 

[Allylbenzene]

In any case, just tossing some questionable aldehyde source with some acid and stirring in non-anhydrous conditions will lead to zero conversion ... besides even if you were able to form these N-acyl hemiaminals (like LSH is one), I'd be surprised of them being pharmacologically relevant...

Here user flickedbic describes various adducts. I used to participate on the same forum as flickedbic, his contributions were always well reasoned and mature.

Flickedbic writes:

• Cinnamaldehyde makes a speedy adduct that carries much more visual strength (and side effects- keep a handy bronchodilator like Cannabis). This one should be dosed lower.
• Acetaldehyde to (re)form LSH adduct (fresh peppermint, cwe coffee, sherry that smells like apples) is a more traditional trip, not as visual with open eye but blissful and more giggly/trippy than the speedy but visual Cinnamaldehyde adduct.
• Perhaps my favorite; cuminaldehyde. I make a cumin tincture then shake it with the filtered acidified LSA CWE over ice, and then strain. A much more serene and zen, meditative trip: very peaceful but also very enjoyable.
...
I've probably done adduct formation from LSA a dozen times using various aldehydes.
...
Very cold, strong agitation of the aldehyde in the CWE is needed to form the adduct.

Here he describes things in more detail:

I have done experiments with adduct formation and talked with many others who have also. There are definite distinct timelines, effects, and side-effects for the various adducts.

My understanding of this reaction in a nutshell:
— "LSA" + the aldehyde + low PH (4) + cold agitation = an adduct with modified effect.

Alcohol may facilitate the reaction.
...
Detailed adduct differentiation:

Acetaldehyde adduct: Great euphoria, classical psychedelic mentally. Offers light visual effects such as haloes, tracers, increased brightness and color saturation.
— The Acetaldehyde adduct gives me vasoconstriction, but no bronchial constriction.

---

Cinnamaldehyde adduct: Short duration, high energy, occasional OEV's: a rapidly expanding white "bubble-ring" (like the kind dolphins make and play with) shoots out from a Persian rug towards me.
— The Cinnamaldehyde adduct gave me bronchial constriction, so keep a bronchodilator like THC handy.

This is the only adduct that has given me actual OEV; and with half my usual dose at that! While it is the most stimulating adduct I've tried, it's the least uplifting.
More on the Cinnamaldehyde adduct: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22081081#22081081

---

Cuminaldehyde adduct: Good mood; centered. Fair energy. Long duration. Presents visual effects from soft "breathing" to "rubber objects" (or seeing things how a video camera does after the lens is splash and water goes into streams across the lens).
— Thinking is unclouded, not on overdrive, but zen. Feels almost holy. While the cuminaldehyde adduct may be slightly less euphoric than the acetaldehyde one, it is still very nice!

Here's my post on Cuminaldehyde written during and after trying it, "hbwr cumin mix kicks ass"*: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21168265#21168265

The user Lysurgeon (from dmt-nexus) reports that the vanillin and benzaldehyde adducts aren't recommended (unpleasant). Lysurgeon also explored other aldehydes including cinnamaldehyde, he was one of the early pioneers of this mysterious "rxn".

Lysurgeon writes (Kash also comments in this thread):

I'm extremely excited about this, especially after receiving the rave reviews of this combo. I did have an experience involving being accidentally fingertip dosed during the preparation of heavenly blue cwe/sassafras root tincture (contains 2 different substituted cinnamaldehydes, 3-meo-4-oh and 3,4-MD). It was definitely not a "placebo". Blindsided by the realization that I'm tripping, but...I didn't eat anything. Indicates intense potency potential given just the right conditions and plant matter.
— https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/lysergic-research.311082/post-3379729

Flickedbic writes (same thread):

Shook only the 400 HBMG CWE, ocassionally; for 6 hrs maybe 5 times, before the third shake; he added 6 drops of Cinnamon bark essential oil.
...
12:30 MG drink was finished. There was some muck which was sucked on and held sublingual. Swallowed...
...
1:30 Feeling like the breath cannot be caught. Does LSC constricts the airways? Start searching for information online; and the screen keeps rippling, making it difficult. Anxious; not enjoying the effect much. Then another psychedelic wave hits.

1:40 Focuse on breathwork and feel great. Slight nausea coming and going.

2:00 Experience visual alterations; a shimmering/waving in the rug patterning (definitely more than is usual). It seemed to be playful/intelligent and powerful also. See a glistening 3-d rippling circle burst outwards from the carpet, as if a rock was dropped in a pond; from corner of the eye.
— https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/lysergic-research.311082/post-3929335

I don't really have the same confidence in the method working beyond (delusion-induced) placebo
...
But the adduct hypothesis is just way too flimsy to be considerable.

It's an incredible delusion-induced placebo for sure. It would be interesting to eventually discover what is truly going on with this LSA/aldehyde saga. It's been going on [online] for what, since the 90s?

 

[tregar]

Yes, I remember flickedbic Allylbenzene, here I thought I was the only one who read his posts.

I am not the first person to have used these doses (40 to 45 seeds) in the past, see Kash's post here: https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=35607

Wanted to add something, Ive tried this Somahuasca (great name that allylbenzene came up with) x 18 times in the past, once a month for 1.5 year. Worked 100% each and every time as pics describe the few easy steps, had gotten it down to only 45 minutes tops beginning to end. Read post #1 on page 1 for typical 40 to 45 seed dose converted trip report.

In the past decided to try another 45 seed dose converted to Somahuasca only 6 days later, and noticed next to zero or no tolerance, similar to Ayahuasca. She had felt again just like 550mg mescaline in every possible way...I was blown away by lack of tolerance...very similar to Ayahuasca tolerance. In the past I drank the 60ml or 2oz brew at 3pm and was still seeing hundreds of colored way beyond 8k visions with eyes closed at 11pm. i fell asleep at midnight, much easier to fall asleep than after LSD and i get even more sleep after taking this LSI Somahuasca than LSD...I can sleep 7 to 8 full hours after Somahuasca...this I greatly appreciate, and feel great the next day.

Edited to add: this is not mentioned in book, but long ago, I would even freeze a 2oz Somahuasca brew (LSI barley mix) and defrost her a month later by letting her warm up to fridge or room temp, drink her and she still performed exactly like the day she was brewed, another huge plus.

SOMA was known to be the combination of two plants just like Ayahuasca, google the sentence to learn more.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Somahuasca brew (LSI barley mix)

Whilst I understand your paraphrasing, I think others won't... or might have qualms with it. I'll interpret LSI as a mix of LSA/aldehyde adducts.

Barley (in its various forms) contains aldehydes + aldehyde precursors (OH); plus endogenous aldehydes could very well be contributing. Now if someone used an ALDHI (aldehyde dehydrogenase inhibitor) then aldehyde levels would rise (which is a reason why it's not recommended to combine durian with alcohol). But also, its worth avoiding things which induce ALDH as this might impede somahuasca...
ALDH inducers:

• cruciferous vegetables (eg broccoli, broccoli sprouts; re sulforaphane)
• asparagus
• supplements containing taurine, lipoic acid (ALA) sulforaphane, vitamin B5 (pantethine), vitamin B6 (pyridoxine), N-acetylcysteine (NAC), garlic, resveratrol, turmeric/curcumin, glucosamine, carnosine, arginine, methionine, ornithine, dihydromyricetin, ALCAR, CoQ10
• pear, cucumber, tomato, coconut water, black/green tea (potency: 91%, 87%, 41%, 14%, 5%, 3%)

 

[tregar]

1. I can guarantee that when the proper genuine nervosa seeds were used (18 times over a 1.5 year period once a month) each and every time she had worked 100%...8 hours of stimulation, intense euphoria, extreme healing & teaching, zero sedation, wild visions and visuals...these seeds are 83% LSA and 17% ergometrine, improper or fake seeds are very low on LSA but high in ergometrine. High levels of LSA are an absolute requirement for this to work, else with fake seeds there is sedation, etc. A+++ REAL seeds are out there, in all of the past very successful experiments only the same seeds from the same supplier were used...I cant stress enough how many fake seeds are out there (scammers just trying to make a quick buck) just something to keep in mind:
   
   fake HBWR - indian? what to do?
   
   More on this (last post): https://mycotopia.net/topic/112442-lsi-ancient-lsd-secret-of-the-eleusis-kykeon/page-3#entry1511731
   
   With the real genuine seeds, its impossible to get drowsy or fall asleep, when brew was drank at 3pm, stimulated just like mescaline or LSD all the way till midnight when I was able to then fall asleep. Even 1 hour before midnight at 11pm with eyes closed I was still having hundreds of closed eye colored visions....and enjoying the mind blowing music enhancement with headphones on.

 

[mr peabody]

Thread 'ANTHROPOLOGY | +40 articles'

Nov 23, 2020

A female hunter who may have killed big-game animals in the Andes 9,000 years ago.

Native Americans used psychedelic plants and painted rock art, study finds

by Katie Hunt | CNN | 23 Nov 2020

The first clear evidence that Native Americans consumed psychedelic plants at rock art sites has been found in the Pinwheel Cave in Southern California, according to new research.

The cave is home to a striking image of a pinwheel...​

• mr peabody
• Replies: 41
• Forum: Psychedelic Medicine

• 

 

[jpritikin]

@tregar I'm puzzled. On page 198, Stahl wrote, "Decades ago, I used 250 mg of THH to potentiate cactus to very strong levels." LSI is compared to mescaline, but there is no mention of combining THH and LSI. Why not?

 

[Allylbenzene]

LSI is compared to mescaline, but there is no mention of combining THH and LSI. Why not?

My guess is there's no apparent need nor inclination (yet) to try such a combo. From his words I gather that his experiences with the "LSI" mix (it's a mixture of LSA/aldehyde adducts) is very well-rounded. LSI is so named due to Isovaleraldehyde which shares similarities to an LSD analog (#16) that David Nichols documented in his paper titled "LSD and it's Lysergamide cousins" link here:
— https://www.heffter.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/chap6.pdf

 

[jpritikin]

"AOJIRU golden young barley grass in 3g nitrogen sealed packet" -- How important is the freshness? Does the important stuff like isovaleraldehyde decompose quickly?

 

[Allylbenzene]

"AOJIRU golden young barley grass in 3g nitrogen sealed packet" -- How important is the freshness? Does the important stuff like isovaleraldehyde decompose quickly?

Probably quite important. Aldehydes and alcohols evaporate easily. One person I interacted with used pure isovaleraldehyde and said sometimes it worked, other times it didn't, last I heard he was still perfecting the process (his particular approach; he wasn't using barley).

Imo barley is an important part since it was one of the original Kykeon ingredients, possibly as a fermented drink. Fermenting barley increases aldehyde & alcohol compounds also re the grains. Barley grass could have feasibly been involved also.

 

[jpritikin]

The spam protection won't allow me to post links. Can some admin give me permission? I want to share a page from my website.

 

[red22]

A tantalizing hint left by a deceased master of meditation suggests that the Hawaiin Woodrose may have an ancient spiritual connection. The Vedas, Hindu religious texts more than a thousand years old, make awed references to an intoxicating plant concoction called Soma. The yogis and sages of old used this divine elixir to enhance their connection with God and assist them in their spiritual development. The use of Soma supposedly disappeared with the passage of the centuries, and the identity of the plant from which it came is therefore a mystery. Several scholarly theses and debates have been devoted to identifying the Soma plant, but no definitive conclusions have ever been reached.

In the early 1980s, a famous LSD researcher went to India and asked an elderly world-renowned guru of Yoga if he knew anything about the mysterious Soma. The spiritual teacher replied that he had been in contact with an obscure, remote sect of yogis who still practiced the entheogenic use of soma, having secretly preserved the tradition for centuries. The swami said that the plant was a "creeper"—or vine—and promised that he would take the LSD researcher on a trek to see the plant for himself and meet the yogis who used it.

The Little Book of Acid. Cam Cloud. 1999. Chapter 9. Psychedelic Vines. Baby Hawaiian Woodrose, page 50

-----------------------------------------------------------
Talking about soma, Muktananda dismissed the theory expounded by mycologist Gordon Wasson that this plant was Amanita muscaria, the fly agaric mushroom. He assured me that soma was not a mushroom, but a “creeper.” This seemed to make sense and did not particularly surprise me because another important item in the psychedelic pharmacopoeia, the famous Mesoamerican sacrament [ololiuhqui], was a preparation containing the seeds of morning glory ([Ipomoea corymbosa]), which would qualify as a creeper plant because it grows with the help of tendrils.

But what followed came as a great surprise to me. Baba not only knew what soma was, but he assured me that it was still being used in India to this very day. As a mater of fact, he claimed that he was in regular contact with Vedic priests who were using it in their rituals. And, according to Baba, some of these priests actually came every year down from the mountains to Ganeshpuri, a little village south of Bombay that hosted his ashram, to celebrate his birthday. On this occasion, they regularly conducted soma ceremonies. At the end of our discussion, Baba extended his invitation to Christina and me to visit his ashram at the time of his birthday and promised to make arrangements for us to participate in this ancient ritual.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Stanislav Grof. When the Impossible Happens: Adventures in Non-ordinary Realities. 2006
  Part 1: THE PLAY OF CONSCIOUSNESS: Swami Muktananda and Siddha Yoga

This is the beginning of the above discussion:

“I understand you have been working with LSD,” he said through his interpreter, Malti, a young Indian woman whom he many years later appointed as his successor under the name Swami Chitvilasananda. “We do something very similar here. But the difference is that, in Siddha Yoga, we teach people not only to get high, but to stay high,” he stated with confidence. “With LSD you can have great experiences, but then you come down. There are many serious spiritual seekers in India, Brahmans and yogis, who use sacred plants in their spiritual practice,” Swami Muktananda continued, “but they know how to do it properly.”

 

[jpritikin]

I contributed an Amazon review:

There are books that arrive with ticker-tape parades. Publisher's Weekly profiles. A breathless NPR segment. A tote bag.

This is not one of those books.

Matthew Ray Stahl's *LSI, Ancient LSD, Secret of the Eleusis Kykeon and Vedic SOMA* materialized on Amazon with the quiet confidence of a man who knows what he has. No galley copies. No blurb from a celebrity neuroscientist. No podcast tour (or does the McKenna Academy count?). The cover depicts a woman serving the sacred brew in ancient Greece, which is, it turns out, not a metaphor.

For context: the Eleusinian priest served a sacred psychedelic beverage to approximately 300 initiates every September, like clockwork, for two thousand years. Stahl quietly pulled off a miracle: he reverse-engineered the recipe. The result is a psychedelic as powerful as LSD—reportedly resembling a combination of ALD-52 and mescaline. He cracked a two-thousand-year-old secret. With ingredients you can order online.

No big deal.

The brew, meanwhile, is described as producing no side effects, no nausea, no vasoconstriction, no cramping—just pure psychedelic bliss. And yet: no New York Times review. No think-piece asking whether Stahl has "gone too far." No Netflix documentary in development (yet). Its highest-profile accolade, as of late 2025, was hitting number four on Amazon's "LSD" book search results. He announced this cheerfully on a drug harm-reduction forum.

The gap between the modesty of the book's arrival and the scale of its ambition is comically disproportionate. Stahl writes like a man who solved a two-thousand-year puzzle in his kitchen and is now explaining it to you in the most straightforward way he can manage, because what else would you do?

 

[Skorpio]

Lot of new accounts that only post on this thread. Always found that neat.

Certainly crowds out the exhausted doubters.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Lot of new accounts that only post on this thread. Always found that neat.

I think that's to be expected when this thread/forum was mentioned by tregar in many places, including his interview with Graham Hancock:

 

[jpritikin]

As a tribute, I created a Stahl shrine. Click on the butterfly to reveal the recipe animation. @tregar

 

[Didgital]

You know, there is software to draw molecules. It would be helpful to ensure we are all talking about the same thing. But it's all rather futile imo because anyone with a decent understanding of chemistry would be very skeptical of any of these proposed adducts being more than mere fiction (at least in concentrations that would be of any pharmacologic relevance).

It always takes 10x more effort to debunk nonsense than to write it in the first place. Unfortunately with the advent of LLMs the effort to write nonsense has become zero, while debunking it can not rely on them.

Worse yet tregar seldomly responds to remarks, criticism or additional questions or if so only ever partially, and uses a lot of the same textblocks over and over.

Also suspiciously many fresh accounts start talking in this and related threads, making the whole debate even more tiring.

For myself I have decided to not engage further, but with every new post here I can't help but click and cringe at what's written.

Reading your comments.... I feel like you take the words right out of my mouth but are better articulating or maybe you just have more tolerance for discussing pseudoscience.

Lot of new accounts that only post on this thread. Always found that neat.

Very neat!

I went thru entire thread and every single greenlighter that has posted in it, has ONLY posted in this thread. Then they disappear never to be heard again. What are the odds of that you think?
Is it possible to check what IP addresses were used of the different greenlighter posts in this thread?

My personal theory is that they are all the same person basically schilling for the theory/book/views.
I could be wrong, but... Occams Razor. If true, that certainly violates rule #5 and #12 of BULA, and probably a couple others.

I went to amazon site and read the reviews which all sound quite* similar. The top review, done by an Elizabeth Stahl writes in an extremely familar textblock fashion, and it refers to "The author" so many times that if that reviewer was actually the author, then are NO STRANGER to writing about themselves in the 3rd person. They also point back to this exact thread.

Then I went over to the shroomery where they actually have multiple threads, one reaching a whopping 36 pages. While there they don't quite have the same schill problem, the criticisms there are intense and very entertaining especially the later pages of the thread. People on BL are relatively polite apparently. The Amazon review fails to mention the shroomery thread but if you read that thread, it is not a place I'd send people to if I wanted them to buy my book.

Then, just out of curiosity, I went and read the McKenna interview which was not particularly illuminating. But one thing that caught my eye was in the interview "Stahl" mentions that he spoke with Dr. David Nichols and that Nichols said he was fascinated by the concept and that it made him interested in synthesizing LSI..

Well, I've been FB friends with Nichols for years, and he responds to maybe 1/3 of the questions I ask him. So I asked him if he had heard about and was interested in synthesizing LSI. As the worlds leading expert on LSD, he may be able to clear some things up.

Will update if I get a response!

 

[red22]

Post #42
───────────────────────
Messages from David Nichols:

"[tregar] couldn’t give me proof that isovaleraldehyde was the key component. I think he only inferred it because it is one of the components of his barley mix." 𝟸𝟶𝟸𝟼-𝟶𝟷-𝟷𝟽

[Source: me]

[ … ]

"I will sit on pins and needles until the release of your book!" 𝟸𝟶𝟸𝟻-𝟷𝟶-𝟶𝟹

[Source: tregar]


"I am fascinated with the effects, this is all very intriguing. I am in contact with a super chemist who could probably synthesize it. Of course, we’d cite your work as the inspiration for making it." 𝟸𝟶𝟸𝟼-𝟶𝟷-𝟷𝟹

[Source: tregar]


"I am having LSI synthesized because I found it kind of unbelievable that LSI would be formed in the liver. That will be definitive proof." 𝟸𝟶𝟸𝟼-𝟶𝟷-𝟷𝟽

[Source: me]
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