• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ
  • PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe |

Phenethylamines The Big and Dandy 25x-NBOH Megathread | Post your 25x-NBOH info and questions here.

3-MeO-4-methyl amphetamine which Shulgin notes was sold AS MDMA in Italy during the 1970s
Fascinating little tidbit, missed this in my PiHKAL readings. The random appearance of rather exotic compounds in the forensic literature in the 60s and 70s never fails to stun me (e.g. seizures of MDMA in Chicago as early as 1970 I believe, one of the most curious instances to me). I wonder how often things like this were the result of subpar clandestine chemists, or particularly creative/frugal ones.
 
Fascinating little tidbit, missed this in my PiHKAL readings. The random appearance of rather exotic compounds in the forensic literature in the 60s and 70s never fails to stun me (e.g. seizures of MDMA in Chicago as early as 1970 I believe, one of the most curious instances to me). I wonder how often things like this were the result of subpar clandestine chemists, or particularly creative/frugal ones.

Nobody knows. What I DO know is that in the early 90s, Blue Dolphins were regarded as the best quality (and physically best made) form of Es. They were a consistant navy blue, biconvex with a clean imprint of a dolphin on the obverse, a breakline on the reverse. They were made in Italy

Since then a dozen or more poor quality knockoffs have appeared.

My conclusion is that an organized criminal group in Italy are or at least were trying out dance drugs as a new income stream. But think about it, the Appennine peninsula isn't where the wholesaling takes place and the methods and customs of those organizations are to take over the entire chain, not to merely supply in bulk. I suspect when people paid £20 per for a good pill, it represented a reasonable use of resources, but the Chinese just moved in and took over firstly by supplying the precursor and latterly by producing moonrock.

I suspect with the original seizure, capsules suggests someone on a small scale but seizure is likely all that could be done given the stuff wasn't controlled. So did that person get noticed and go on to produce Dolphins? Impossible to know but I WOULD check if I had the files as while not hard, quality COSTS and not many people take pride in their product. I suppose Italians would want to BE the best as their one advantage. But if people just crush them up and make crappy pills, what's the point?

Purely a hypothesis - but as good as any other, I suppose.
 
Last edited:
This is not some secret inside information. He synthesized this batch of of sheer curiosity and to see how interested the market was in the compound. He is active on other forums where you would expect to see chemists discussing these type of things which is how I know.

I feel the fact that the compound not being explicitly controlled was at least one driver. However you consider it, production requires inputs and yields are low. I DO think that a solution in absolute ethanol a very well considered touch. It does appear that parentheral administation represents the vast majority of deaths so a formulation that makes that tougher is good sense.

But didn't the NBOMes get banned because of the deaths? Buyers were not buying so a legal, less potent homologue in a safer formulation sounds like someone who has studied formulation of drugs. I found it a deadly dull module but 1 drop per dose and finding (or having made) containers that allow that dosing speaks of effort to do the thing right.

Of course, this is now the 'mystery liquid game' and if someone was sat on an unsalable, illegal NBome, misrepresentation would seem an obvious step to maximizing profit. I don't say it is, but one must consider ALL of the possibilities.

Just months ago I was asked to look at something misrepresented as ketamine and it turned out to be 3-MeO-PCE. Luckily the person handed it in so we got instrumentation. Now as far as I know it's about an order of magnitude more potent than ketamine so on the face of it, makes no sense. But it DID fool presumptive tests and certainly is far simpler to make. So UNLESS someone has the instrumental data, it remains the MLG.

BTW CC 3-MeO PCE I did consider the various scenarios, calculated costs and so on and concluded that a Chinese supplier reverted to type i.e. 能骗就骗. because two synthetic steps is easier than five synthetic steps. I have mentioned before that long, long ago when the N-ethyl homolgue of ketamine was legal a Chinese supplier attempted to offer us 'etamine' and sent a sample. So we did the usual GC-MS/NMR pair and it was the para chloro homologue (VERY obvious since you get just two aromatic peaks) but saving face is important in Chinese culture so we simply said our instrumentation differs from yours, please can we compare. So they went away, came back and simply offered the same thing at a (much) lower price.

I do find myself repeating that the BEST you can reasonably expect from a supplier is caution i.e. if something isn't causing harm, it remains legal for longer to their net benefit. But while not per se illegal, from what I know of North American law enforcement, they will still try to give producers and distributers as much static as possible e.g. arrest and remand then keep putting off the trial date so people get to enjoy Club Fed for a year at which point everything has been seized and sold (inclusing home, vehicles, antiques and so on via civil asset forfeiture/civil forfeiture) BEFORE conviction.

So the idea of someone knocking the stuff up out of pure altruism does not play. Fancy packaging of LSD in Australia is another recent example. It turns out Swiss law has a loophole and that a doctor can obtain a licence to buy the stuff with nothing akin to the two-man rule used by most nations - that just means if you drop a drug or otherwise render it unusable, two people have to sign the destruction register. I'm also keenly aware that the Swiss are a cleanly, money loving, Christian, money loving, conservative, money loving nation. Taxes are high but somewhat akin to the Chinese, as long as something doesn't turn up 'at home', the respective governments don't look too hard as long as tax is paid.

I have learnt a few things from old-timers and paying all taxes is often the tell. Idiots making a fortune will often think that if they get away with one crime, they can get away with two, but Al Capone is a good example of someone who did just that and got jailed for tax. Any LEGAL company has a proper structure, real deductables (with reciepts) and real profits which are taxable - if Customs and Excise get onto a person, they have more powers than the police. Search warrents? Not needed. BUT if they walk in and see what goes on, they surely WILL tell the local feds.

Others have mentioned this but given how many classes of RC contain a basic nitrogen moiety, the logical step is to 'protect' that amine with a BOC which renders it totally inactive until boiled in water at which point the BOC is cleaved and you end up with product + carbon dioxide + tert-butyl alcohol. If I know this I assume everyone else does. Sure, you can add them all (thousands) to the list of 'watched' precursors but when does that become unworkable? It could likewise be distributed as a solution but an aspirator and water bath (your kitchen sink) will remove the water and the alcohol. I am actually surprised this hasn't been spotted OR it has but mention of it could see a truly VAST wave of quite legal intermediates being shipped.
 
Last edited:
One of the problems with 2CB is that samples often contain positional isomers, mainly the 4-bromo is moved to the 3 position but polybromination can also occur. I don't think it's in any significant amounts and preparative chromatography (lack of) is the reason they were found in product.


But I suggest that a good chemist would likely not rush and do it in the right way. Chinese samples are fascinating. The dimers and trimers in many samples of the synthetic CB1/CB2 ligands are simply due to using too little solvent and not even performing preparative chromatography.

But 2CH isn't active or controlled so if not 2CB, someone could go from 2CH. I suppose the only thing that would concern me would be reduction of the imine also removing the halide. Again, not toxic, simply inactive and one where preparative chromatography likely would clean it up.
 
But 2CH isn't active or controlled so if not 2CB, someone could go from 2CH. I suppose the only thing that would concern me would be reduction of the imine also removing the halide. Again, not toxic, simply inactive and one where preparative chromatography likely would clean it up.
2C-H isn't active, but in the maw of the infinite stupidity of the United States government, it is controlled (schedule I too! :dead:). It is one of several entirely inactive precursors that are nonsensically under the slimy control of the CSA. Interestingly though, 25H-NBOH appears to be active (see supplementary table 11 in this paper which is also a fascinating paper in general), so perhaps the lack of reductive selectivity would yield an interesting combo of active NBOHs. Maybe a borohydride reduction would more selectively reduce the imine? Although I guess we should avoid any synthesis talk
 
But 2CH isn't active or controlled so if not 2CB, someone could go from 2CH. I suppose the only thing that would concern me would be reduction of the imine also removing the halide. Again, not toxic, simply inactive and one where preparative chromatography likely would clean it up.
Without getting into chemistry discussions (as forbidden here), the typical method of choice for reducing this imine should not really dehalogenate, not even the iodo. Besides, 25H-NBOH/25H-NBOMe are not inactive, this has been tested in vitro and in humans.
 
Last edited:
Well, I have provided numerous links demostrating that the 5-MeO indole moiety overlays the 2,5-dimethoxybenzene moiety and that 7-substitution as explored by Upjohn in the 1960s does rather mirror 3-methoxy-4-methyl amphetamine but for whatever reasons, while people are totally onboard with amphetamines being chiral, alpha alkyl tryptamines being chiral seems to elude people.

I thought that someone had produce the indole homologues of the NBOMes? 5-MeO-T-NBOMe?

Bet you £1 that a 7-substitution of that indole will produce a ligand with a far higher affinity. Of course, synthesis of a disubstituted indole-3-carbaldehyde isn't much fun.

I DID even suggest that just testing 7-substituted 5-MeO AMT would represent a 'middle ground' in terms of synthetic complexity. But, as I said, chirality still seems misunderstood.

LONG ago we had plain AMT resolved and I'm sure you won't be surprised to learn one was a psychedelic, 'tother an entactogen. But it's not a potent entactogen and Upjohn noted 7-methyl increased entacotgen activity by an order of magnitude.

I could be wrong - but I have at least dug up and posted all papers so people can look and decide if they agree or disagree - both are fine with me. If their is a flaw, I want to know. I am fallible so possibly EVERYONE should be checking.

As for 25H-NBOMe, I was rather under the impression that in vivo, it was more of a stimulant than anything else but if you know better, I cannot argue the point other than my usual disclaimers that EC50 is a better metric and I can point to multiple examples where the Ki of one homoogue was lower BUT the EC50 of ligands with lower affinity made them the more potent. 2,5-dimethoxy PPA is certainly know for it's stimulant action (methoxetamine).

I would expect that bare phenol would reduce the LogP which to be fair IS reflected in the dose regime. But I like my GC-MS/NMR pairs as if nothing else, it's often incredibly useful in figuring out the syntheses. Benzo Fury was a classic.
 
Last edited:
I cannot argue the point other than my usual disclaimers that EC50 is a better metric and I can point to multiple examples where the Ki of one homoogue was lower BUT the EC50 of ligands with lower affinity made them the more potent.
If you take a look at the table I cited above, there is EC50 data provided for 25B-NBOH for both Gq and β-arrestin2 signaling.
 
Top