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Happiness or Pleasure

I don't think it's "selfish". Like they say, "you can't help others until you help yourself". Or somebody out there has probably said this.

Happiness & pleasure are important for your own well-being. When you feel good, you're more likely to extend that goodness to others.

Maybe that's why we have a drug war. If everyone was chill, then it'd be harder to divide us with politics, religion & get us to support wars & their insane BS they do.
 
Just to chip in on the selfishness topic. There's a famous quote of the Dalai Lama that if you want to be selfish in a smart way, help others. That's from the Buddhist pov where your Karma (action) creates your own future. ..
I personally like the psychological theory of the three selves:
The lower (unconscious),
The rationally perceived Self (I)
And the higher self (conscience and values)
Only when those three are fairly in sync, a deeper form of happiness can result.
The rest is pleasure and mood
 
@KurtAurelius - I am glad that you 'saw through' the Stoics. It's easy to renounce worldly possessions by choice, but that is not the same as simply not having those possessions. So, I'm sure you will be unsurprised that the 'Incels' do rather seem to favour Stoicism.

Anyone who thinks referencing a science-fiction film as their basis for dividing people into just two catagories is nuts. There is a term associated with it's usage. Splitting (black and white thinking).

Hence my mentioning that we all draw our own line in the sand and firmly place ourselves on the 'right' side of that line.

Then when we step over that line, we add addenda to excuse the transgression or, worse, erase and redraw that line in the sand.
 
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This thread is getting really interesting. I appreciate everyone who is here.

This is a quote I just read in a different thread, sort of connects pretty well the idea of connection and going outside ones comfort zone to build happiness

tryptakid said:
According to Julian Jaynes - there may have been a time where modern humans evolved to become self-aware due to increasingly complex social interactions, language, cultural interactions, writing, and the use of metaphor. These interactions resulted in increase strain on our brains, causing electrical activity between the right and left brain, which created a more complex neural network in our corpus callosum - as a result, our brains became capable of hosting a mind which allowed for introspection, self-determination, and awareness. It was the increasingly complicated social interactions that resulted in cognitive evolution. He believed that pre-modern humans would have behaved in the way that people with schizophrenia behave today - capable of survival, and guided through command auditory hallucinations, rather than conscious determination/drive/motivation etc.
Click to expand...

No pressure to tha kid (who aynt a kid), but this is a really good reminder at least for me in my life right now. I'm about to commit to a big time commitment that will force me out of my apartment and into a pretty high stress social situation. One that my heart is behind, but framing the social pressures as expansive instead of shrinking will be in my best interest.

If only our brains could download frameworks so that I didn't have to keep all the important things on the forefront of my consciousness while I'm simultaneously plagued with damn television commercials.
 
I'm still pondering whether the flooding of pleasure in our brains witch I truly believe is the only sensations humans possess that may describe words like happiness, joy,contentment etc are our base emotion resulting from hundred and thousands of years of evolution
 
Has it been scientifically proven that animals possess any other positive emotions other than pleasure
We are after all animals
 
lost weekend said:
Has it been scientifically proven that animals possess any other positive emotions other than pleasure
We are after all animals
Click to expand...

Well euphoria certainly has been induced using everything from drugs to brain implants. I suppose it depends on if you consider euphoria a positive emotion.

We can infer happiness in the higher animals because we studied them in the wild and noted that they clearly demonstrate surprise and excitement when meeting a friend, especially after a prolonged absence.

I don't think Christian the Lion is necessarily the BEST example but if you have cats, many people term that single chirp when you enter the room as a display of happiness. Some people even call it 'the activation sound'.

But never lose sight of the fact that we still don't really understand how even our closest genetic relatives experience existance. They certainly seem to remember someone, sometimes even after decades of absence and show what we assign as joy, excitement and happiness.

It's one of those unknowable truths. Anyone who has had a pet cat, dog, goat, pig, horse and so on will tell you that they care. Even cats experience grief and I don't think they would if they didn't care. losing an animal who has been a pivot in your like will know that even though WE know they will die before us, it's unclear how animals process such information.
 
4DQSAR said:
Well euphoria certainly has been induced using everything from drugs to brain implants. I suppose it depends on if you consider euphoria a positive emotion.

We can infer happiness in the higher animals because we studied them in the wild and noted that they clearly demonstrate surprise and excitement when meeting a friend, especially after a prolonged absence.

I don't think Christian the Lion is necessarily the BEST example but if you have cats, many people term that single chirp when you enter the room as a display of happiness. Some people even call it 'the activation sound'.

But never lose sight of the fact that we still don't really understand how even our closest genetic relatives experience existance. They certainly seem to remember someone, sometimes even after decades of absence and show what we assign as joy, excitement and happiness.

It's one of those unknowable truths. Anyone who has had a pet cat, dog, goat, pig, horse and so on will tell you that they care. Even cats experience grief and I don't think they would if they didn't care. losing an animal who has been a pivot in your like will know that even though WE know they will die before us, it's unclear how animals process such information.
Click to expand...
Yeh I agree .I have pets and they seem to experience excitement and contentment
But I can't ask them their range of emotions ( well the parrot I can)
Pleasure -euphoria are they so different?
 
Well, didn't William S. Burroughs note that 'all pleasure is relief'.

The long-term heroin user can rarely affort to get 'high', all the H does is to remove the cravings and physical AWS.

So is pleasure a positive emotion?

Remember, the Epicurians only mentioned PHYSICAL pain. So those addicted to drugs that do not produce physical dependence still suffer the cravings, depression, anxiety and all manner of negative emotions. But once again is using their drug of choice pleasure and/or relief?
 
4DQSAR said:
Well, didn't William S. Burroughs note that 'all pleasure is relief'.

The long-term heroin user can rarely affort to get 'high', all the H does is to remove the cravings and physical AWS.

So is pleasure a positive emotion?

Remember, the Epicurians only mentioned PHYSICAL pain. So those addicted to drugs that do not produce physical dependence still suffer the cravings, depression, anxiety and all manner of negative emotions. But once again is using their drug of choice pleasure and/or relief?
Click to expand...
I agree in that any drug/medication that takes away physical or mental pain leaves one so relieved that it could be described as pleasure.
Your right ,from my own experience the feeling of relief whether it be pain or everyday problems life throws at you does flood my brain with what could be described as pleasure

I would say the pursuit of pleasure could lead to terrible outcomes in some situations while in others could be construed as a positive emotion
 
I still believe that there is a happiness that doesn't depend on pleasure. It's synonymous to contentment for me
You can look at your life, draw a line and summarize it. If the outcome is positive, it gives some inner calm that I would describe as happiness.
On the other hand there are so called balance suicides, when somebody drew the line and came to a negative result...
This kind of (un-) happiness doesn't necessarily depend on physical pleasure or pain. It's something much deeper.
Even if I'm high af I can still feel sad inside. And even if my body aches like anything but I finished an important task, I can still be happy...
 
streaM Freak said:
This thread is getting really interesting. I appreciate everyone who is here.

This is a quote I just read in a different thread, sort of connects pretty well the idea of connection and going outside ones comfort zone to build happiness



No pressure to tha kid (who aynt a kid),
Click to expand...
Kid at heart - or as Antoine de Saint-Exupéryreferred to in Le Petit Prince - Un Petit Person. I have tried to retain my youthful curiosity throughout my life. That said, yes I'm in my 40s but I've used this screen name since I was 17 on AIM.
streaM Freak said:
but this is a really good reminder at least for me in my life right now. I'm about to commit to a big time commitment that will force me out of my apartment and into a pretty high stress social situation. One that my heart is behind, but framing the social pressures as expansive instead of shrinking will be in my best interest.

If only our brains could download frameworks so that IkI didn't have to keep all the important things on the forefront of my consciousness while I'm simultaneously plagued with damn television commercials.
Click to expand...
We live in an era where it is so incredibly easy to develop a safe cocoon of parasocial relationships with podcasters, experience social interaction through online forums and chats, and to surround ourselves with only the like-mindedest of people within the pockets of sameness that the internet allows for. I could follow my friends and family's adventures and life events through social media rather than hopping on the phone or going for a visit. I can scroll through reddit for hours and read the stories of others (some real, some stolen, some imagined, and some synthesized by LLMs) while ignoring my own chance to make a story myself. I can "befriend" a more-than-willing sycophant in a chatbot, they'll even be my lover if I want, and find the perfect person who "just gets me" even though they're simply a predictive language algorithm crafting sentences that I'm most likely to react to and engage with. This fails to help me grow to understand that real relationships require compromise, empathy, selflessness, and trust. I could berate my chatbot lover one moment and it would still be there wanting to hear about my day, happily listening to me well into the night in an empty masquerade of intimacy.

None of these things challenge me nor fulfill me in the way that authentic, unexpected, and sometimes intimidating human interactions will. I can't get a hug from a chatbot, nor can I remember the look on someone's face when they tell me they're getting married instead of seeing an update post to announce it. I also will never be challenge to explore the complicated reasons why someone might vote differently than me, or have different views than I do; having a chance at developing true empathy for others in the process.

I truly believe that we may be at the pinnacle of human cognitive development, staring forth into a future where our brains begin to devolve as we chose safety over challenge, and filter out opportunities to learn authentically from others who might spur growth. I have encountered a growing number of young people who have never dated or had sex despite being in their 20s or 30s - they never learned how to date organically, growing up hoping for love to find them but struggling to put themselves in the contexts to try it. I've encountered more and more people whose social lives stem from their online personas, many of which are anonymous and disconnected from their true self or even from other aspects of their online presence - tryptakid is a name I've used on many platforms for over 2 decades. I do that so that if you encounter me elsewhere you recognize that it's still me. I believe that anonymity can allow us to dabble in awful behaviors, which nonetheless leave a mark on us. If I joke anonymously about commiting an atrocity in a way I would never say in person, I may face no social retribution but I sill said that and expressing sentiments like that can normalize unhealthy views due to the lack of accountability. Eventually, if you keep making racist jokes anonymously, you start to become racist.

Humans evolved because of diverse social interactions and challenging their own views of the world through novel experiences. When novelty is a commodity that is delivered to us without effort through synthetic means, we happily eat it up but those calories are empty. Over time, our skills and intellect atrophy and despite constantly eating, we are starving.
 
Mushoku_Sensei said:
I still believe that there is a happiness that doesn't depend on pleasure. It's synonymous to contentment for me
You can look at your life, draw a line and summarize it. If the outcome is positive, it gives some inner calm that I would describe as happiness.
On the other hand there are so called balance suicides, when somebody drew the line and came to a negative result...
This kind of (un-) happiness doesn't necessarily depend on physical pleasure or pain. It's something much deeper.
Even if I'm high af I can still feel sad inside. And even if my body aches like anything but I finished an important task, I can still be happy...
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure , a monk might renounce wordly pleasures but in doing so must feel pleasure himself in order to be content to live a simple life
 
I'm just wondering if we are fooling ourselves with so many descriptive emotions into believing that our base emotion which makes us who we are is pleasure and the thought of more pleasure
Which could make it a selfish emotion
 
tryptakid said:
Kid at heart - or as Antoine de Saint-Exupéryreferred to in Le Petit Prince - Un Petit Person. I have tried to retain my youthful curiosity throughout my life. That said, yes I'm in my 40s but I've used this screen name since I was 17 on AIM.

We live in an era where it is so incredibly easy to develop a safe cocoon of parasocial relationships with podcasters, experience social interaction through online forums and chats, and to surround ourselves with only the like-mindedest of people within the pockets of sameness that the internet allows for. I could follow my friends and family's adventures and life events through social media rather than hopping on the phone or going for a visit. I can scroll through reddit for hours and read the stories of others (some real, some stolen, some imagined, and some synthesized by LLMs) while ignoring my own chance to make a story myself. I can "befriend" a more-than-willing sycophant in a chatbot, they'll even be my lover if I want, and find the perfect person who "just gets me" even though they're simply a predictive language algorithm crafting sentences that I'm most likely to react to and engage with. This fails to help me grow to understand that real relationships require compromise, empathy, selflessness, and trust. I could berate my chatbot lover one moment and it would still be there wanting to hear about my day, happily listening to me well into the night in an empty masquerade of intimacy.

None of these things challenge me nor fulfill me in the way that authentic, unexpected, and sometimes intimidating human interactions will. I can't get a hug from a chatbot, nor can I remember the look on someone's face when they tell me they're getting married instead of seeing an update post to announce it. I also will never be challenge to explore the complicated reasons why someone might vote differently than me, or have different views than I do; having a chance at developing true empathy for others in the process.

I truly believe that we may be at the pinnacle of human cognitive development, staring forth into a future where our brains begin to devolve as we chose safety over challenge, and filter out opportunities to learn authentically from others who might spur growth. I have encountered a growing number of young people who have never dated or had sex despite being in their 20s or 30s - they never learned how to date organically, growing up hoping for love to find them but struggling to put themselves in the contexts to try it. I've encountered more and more people whose social lives stem from their online personas, many of which are anonymous and disconnected from their true self or even from other aspects of their online presence - tryptakid is a name I've used on many platforms for over 2 decades. I do that so that if you encounter me elsewhere you recognize that it's still me. I believe that anonymity can allow us to dabble in awful behaviors, which nonetheless leave a mark on us. If I joke anonymously about commiting an atrocity in a way I would never say in person, I may face no social retribution but I sill said that and expressing sentiments like that can normalize unhealthy views due to the lack of accountability. Eventually, if you keep making racist jokes anonymously, you start to become racist.

Humans evolved because of diverse social interactions and challenging their own views of the world through novel experiences. When novelty is a commodity that is delivered to us without effort through synthetic means, we happily eat it up but those calories are empty. Over time, our skills and intellect atrophy and despite constantly eating, we are starving.
Click to expand...

That hits (as in, is felt - and should be, things to think about and challenge perspective). Food for thought for sure, for us all.
 
Make a joke and I will sigh and you will laugh
And I will cry
Happiness I cannot feel and love to me
Is so unreal
I tell you to enjoy life I wish I could
But it's too late

download.png
 
tryptakid said:
Kid at heart - or as Antoine de Saint-Exupéryreferred to in Le Petit Prince - Un Petit Person. I have tried to retain my youthful curiosity throughout my life. That said, yes I'm in my 40s but I've used this screen name since I was 17 on AIM.

We live in an era where it is so incredibly easy to develop a safe cocoon of parasocial relationships with podcasters, experience social interaction through online forums and chats, and to surround ourselves with only the like-mindedest of people within the pockets of sameness that the internet allows for. I could follow my friends and family's adventures and life events through social media rather than hopping on the phone or going for a visit. I can scroll through reddit for hours and read the stories of others (some real, some stolen, some imagined, and some synthesized by LLMs) while ignoring my own chance to make a story myself. I can "befriend" a more-than-willing sycophant in a chatbot, they'll even be my lover if I want, and find the perfect person who "just gets me" even though they're simply a predictive language algorithm crafting sentences that I'm most likely to react to and engage with. This fails to help me grow to understand that real relationships require compromise, empathy, selflessness, and trust. I could berate my chatbot lover one moment and it would still be there wanting to hear about my day, happily listening to me well into the night in an empty masquerade of intimacy.

None of these things challenge me nor fulfill me in the way that authentic, unexpected, and sometimes intimidating human interactions will. I can't get a hug from a chatbot, nor can I remember the look on someone's face when they tell me they're getting married instead of seeing an update post to announce it. I also will never be challenge to explore the complicated reasons why someone might vote differently than me, or have different views than I do; having a chance at developing true empathy for others in the process.

I truly believe that we may be at the pinnacle of human cognitive development, staring forth into a future where our brains begin to devolve as we chose safety over challenge, and filter out opportunities to learn authentically from others who might spur growth. I have encountered a growing number of young people who have never dated or had sex despite being in their 20s or 30s - they never learned how to date organically, growing up hoping for love to find them but struggling to put themselves in the contexts to try it. I've encountered more and more people whose social lives stem from their online personas, many of which are anonymous and disconnected from their true self or even from other aspects of their online presence - tryptakid is a name I've used on many platforms for over 2 decades. I do that so that if you encounter me elsewhere you recognize that it's still me. I believe that anonymity can allow us to dabble in awful behaviors, which nonetheless leave a mark on us. If I joke anonymously about commiting an atrocity in a way I would never say in person, I may face no social retribution but I sill said that and expressing sentiments like that can normalize unhealthy views due to the lack of accountability. Eventually, if you keep making racist jokes anonymously, you start to become racist.

Humans evolved because of diverse social interactions and challenging their own views of the world through novel experiences. When novelty is a commodity that is delivered to us without effort through synthetic means, we happily eat it up but those calories are empty. Over time, our skills and intellect atrophy and despite constantly eating, we are starving.
Click to expand...
I think the problem lies in how quickly we have had to adapt starting with the industrial revolution and the crazy advancements in the last few decades
No other civilization in history has "taken its self so far in such little time"
We existed as modern home sapiens for tens of thousands of years with very little change until farming,followed by a slow process of enlightenment taking thousands of years
Now we find ourselves where we are all of a sudden
 
Happiness in the absence of pleasure is based on contentment, purpose and acceptance.

We cannot control the actions of others, but we may control our emotional response.

I've never hated anyone in my entire life. Act or forget about it. But hate only harms the hater.

Purporse can mean different things to different people. I do HR work so help others, but again, I have learnt that there are limits. Which is more peaceful.

Accepting that you don't need to compete with anyone and for me, opting out of consumerism showed me how little I needed and I'm happy that those basic needs are met. Jealousy is something I don't really understand. I'm not competing so why would I be jealous?

As to the future - while change can be scary, it is inevitable so worrying about change is also a pointless exercise.

OR, stated with precision:

“It's my belief that history is a wheel. 'Inconstancy is my very essence,' says the wheel. Rise up on my spokes if you like but don't complain when you're cast back down into the depths. Good time pass away, but then so do the bad. Mutability is our tragedy, but it's also our hope. The worst of time, like the best, are always passing away.”

-Anicius Manlius Severinus Boethius (Boethius)

We cannot stop the wheel, but we may move closer to it's axle so that the rises and falls are far less pronounced. Standing ON the axle merely requires one to slowly step backwards as the wheel moves forwards into the future.
 
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