Miscellaneous "Weak" psychedelics, threshold producers, and unpleasant poisons: A swing and a miss!

[iom]

Though 2C-B is not a favorite, it's great for what it is. It's a mild psychedelic with a strong entactogenic character. It's probably a great intro psychedelic for newbies. I do think there are better choices for visuals as I've taken it up to 24 mg (as HBr) and not gotten much. I prefer both 2C-E and 2C-T-2 over 2C-B, and I'm still evaluating 2C-P which could some day compete with 2C-E and mescaline as favorites.

As far as other possible duds, I had high hopes from 4-HO-DiPT based on Sasha's (++++) reported in the book, but it really just felt like a strong tryptamine body load and not much else. It also came down very rapidly after the somewhat uncomfortable coming up phase. Another really weird one was 2C-T-21, which felt vaguely like a psychedelic but never seemed to quite "get there".

 

[Shadow651]

Having taken a few 2Cs I find 2CB to be the "funnest" of the ones iVe experienced at least. Its very popular in the dance music world here in the UK and Ireland and I find it also combines gorgeously, especially with a bit of mdma or even a few beers. Euphoric, energetic, colourful and fun doesnt equate a dud, in my books anyway.

 

[JackARoe]

That LSI rabbithole isn't definitively proven yet or potentially ever will be and I feel there are many potential simpler, more likely explanations for the altered effects than the esoteric series of conclusions that ya'll came to. Not totally throwing it out but there is simply no empirical evidence, however, I have an open mind if a proper study comes out. I'd prefer if the LSI stuff stay in its own thread.

Right, luckly we have boards like this where people can go back and forth to discuss. But threads go off the rails when facts being challenged are ignored. Still a great area of study, but we need more facts.

Here is a fact we can address the Morning Glory and HBWS. There is a reason why Morning Glory has a history of use like a lot of other psychedelics. Fresh seeds can be as potent as LSD. In fact even when I had a good supply of LSD years ago I would always squeeze in a Morning Glory trip. I almost had one freakout once when I plucked to seeds off the vine fall and ate a handful. Hit very quickly, then I remember sitting in the dark on my bed and watching jungle like visuals over whelm me. Another time a friend that grew his own HBWS sent me 6 pods with 3 seeds each. I took 3 seeds from one pod. Thank God I only took 3. It hit so hard it really drove home how fresh seeds are different than older ones. After 6 months I would not even bother taking any. Most people that try these have never grown their own so it gets written off. But there is a valid history with these seeds for a reason that us up and coming psychonauts miss. Fresh seeds need more experiments to analyze content. I know we have the whole LSH, LSI and LSA in discussion but would like to see more facts. Then once we have facts we can scrutinize those too till we get a better picture.

 

[perpetualdawn]

I think it was recently determined that the LSA is produced not by the Morning Glory / HBWS but rather a symbiotic fungus - similar to how ergot grows on rye and produces all sorts of active compounds. This makes me think it must make the dosage a lot more variable - because it depends on how much this secondary organism is growing and producing LSA.

 

[xdrc]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00275514.2025.2483634

 

[perpetualdawn]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00275514.2025.2483634

"Observation of fungal hyphae in evacuated seed coats of I. tricolor and subsequent transfer onto malt extract agar resulted in cultures of the symbiont isolated from the plant."
Hmm this makes me think - I wonder about cultivating this fungus on a medium like sterilized grain or something for larger scale production Probably would take some expert lab technique given how hard it has been to isolate this fungus.

 

[Nonyascaline]

There is a reason why Morning Glory has a history of use like a lot of other psychedelics. Fresh seeds can be as potent as LSD. In fact even when I had a good supply of LSD years ago I would always squeeze in a Morning Glory trip.

Yeah I've also had some strong experiences from HBWR and that's why I feel like it deserves its spot in the harsh body load section as it easily gave me worse vasoconstriction than even like 6mg of DOB. I thought the community was in agreement that the symbiotic fungus, like with some parallels to ergot, formed the psychoactive compound and like mushrooms the main constituent was LSA (or psilocybin in the other case) and any potential range of effects were explained by a range of similar chemicals being formed in the natural material. That LSI thread just made my BS detector flare up I still feel LSA/Morning Glory/HBWR is a powerful yet lightly toxic psychedelic. (Especially if not extracted from the seed material)

 

[iom]

Here is a fact we can address the Morning Glory and HBWS. There is a reason why Morning Glory has a history of use like a lot of other psychedelics. Fresh seeds can be as potent as LSD. In fact even when I had a good supply of LSD years ago I would always squeeze in a Morning Glory trip.

[...]

Thank you for this excellent post. This is the kind of conversation I hoped we could have back in that "LSI" thread. I wanted to hear more about your experiences, and I think the fact that your (good) seeds were all homegrown and fresh is potentially a big clue.

"Observation of fungal hyphae in evacuated seed coats of I. tricolor and subsequent transfer onto malt extract agar resulted in cultures of the symbiont isolated from the plant."
Hmm this makes me think - I wonder about cultivating this fungus on a medium like sterilized grain or something for larger scale production Probably would take some expert lab technique given how hard it has been to isolate this fungus.

It sounds like a worthwhile experiment, but what if the fungus and plant work in synergy? Maybe the plants produce a precursor alkaloid, and the fungus completes the "synthesis".

I'm starting to think that LSA is responsible for all the icky effects including vasoconstriction and that the psychedelic effects from HBWR/MGS come from something else which may be less toxic. If this other substance could be identified, then it could be possible to separate it from LSA using extraction or to alter growing conditions in order to select for production of the psychedelic component.

 

[xdrc]

I'm starting to think that LSA is responsible for all the icky effects including vasoconstriction and that the psychedelic effects from HBWR/MGS come from something else which may be less toxic. If this other substance could be identified, then it could be possible to separate it from LSA using extraction or to alter growing conditions in order to select for production of the psychedelic component.

I want to point out here to anyone seeking to get behind this, that relatively pure LSA can probably be preparatively isolated with thin layer chromatography (spotting lines instead of "dots"). After all this is how Hofmann did his experimentation. I'm still at the getting the seeds to germinate in the first place stage of experimentation - so give me a couple of years please

 

[Pfafffed]

Careful extraction methods with fresh seeds can yield decent experiences. Since I have access to psychedelics I like better, I abandoned experimentation with these fungus-associated plants years ago. LSD doesn't play well with me either.

I would caution against conflating HBW with MGS experiences, or fresh versus old seed. I was wrong when I assumed that my uniformly bad experiences with chewing up old mail order HBW seeds would be anything like fresh blended, green MGS seeds from the garden or fresh HBW seeds extracted with solvents.

I think there could be quite a bit of good to come from exploring "failed" psychedelics. 4C-D has therapeutic potential, and many people find low dose 3C-P to be quite fun despite it not being particularly trippy. There are also the true psychedelics that I still think just feel bland (4-HO-MALT.)

 

[xdrc]

Speaking about duds that could probably be interesting, I'd like to mention 2C-T. See also the respective thread for my posts. 4 trips. Two times barely any effects. One trip, at the lowest dose of barely over 50 mg, very nice entactogen-ish psychedelic effects. And another one at a higher dose leading to my archetypical uncomfortable "shouldn't have taken a 2C now"-experience, but clearly psychedelic. I can't help but feel I'm missing something, but at the same time it is a medium hassle to prepare and other drugs (both tried and yet untried) are unfortunately higher on my list of priorities.

I'd really like to get behind some of the ergine-related stuff, but definitely want to explore only fresh homegrown seeds and don't have the greenest of thumbs. Wish me luck.

 

[iom]

I would love to try 2C-T given my positive experiences with 2C-T-2 and 2C-T-4.

I assume the only reason it has not been tried more widely is that the potency is low which makes for poor economics. Does that make it a dud?

 

[xdrc]

Well, if only 2 out of 4 experiences at dosages which should have been active were active, that does not make it a dud, but maybe a hemi-dud? The economics are not too bad, depending on the route it is cheaper/less of a hassle than the other thios from common and inexpensive reagents. But yes, less potent than 2C-B and probably around twice as much effort with the currently most approachable route.

 

[Shadow651]

Mescaline has worse potency than that stuff, so I wouldn't regard that aspect as dud-esque unless it's combined with increasing toxicity/side effects coming with the required dosage, just has a tendecy to make things less available unfortunately

 

[Pfafffed]

2C-T sounds potentially therapeutic, but doesn't sound particularly intense. There's not much of a market yet for not very psychedelic psychedelics

 

[Allylbenzene]

I'm starting to think that LSA is responsible for all the icky effects including vasoconstriction...

This is from TiHKAL entry #26 on LSA:

LA-111 Ergine, d-Lysergamide
This is an active compound and has been established as a major component in morning glory seeds. It was assayed for human activity, by Albert Hofmann in self-trials back in 1947, well before this was known to be a natural compound. An i.m. administration of a 500 microgram dose led to a tired, dreamy state with an inability to maintain clear thoughts. After a short period of sleep, the effects were gone and normal baseline was recovered within five hours. Other observers have confirmed this clouding of consciousness leading to sleep. The epimer, inverted at C-8, is isoergine or d-isolysergamide, and is also a component of morning glory seeds. Hofmann tried a 2 milligram dose of this amide, and as with ergine, he experienced nothing but tiredness, apathy, and a feeling of emptiness. Both compounds are probably correctly dismissed as not being a contributor to the action of these seeds.

...and that the psychedelic effects from HBWR/MGS come from something else which may be less toxic. If this other substance could be identified, then it could be possible to separate it from LSA using extraction or to alter growing conditions in order to select for production of the psychedelic component.

For MG there's varying amounts of LSH and several clavine alkaloids. Most people who aren't able to acquire fresh seeds are getting LSA from HBWR and extracting it in fresh sherry wine or brandy.

 

[xdrc]

TiHKAL in regards to ergine is secondary literature, the primary literature are the reports of Hofmann. I don't think Shulgin ever experimented with isolated LSA himself. The reports of Hofmann are a bit murky, but he states a psychedelic action. I don't think is is unlikely that other compounds may contribute to the psychoactive effects, but I have my doubts of these N-acylhemiaminals being significant contributors to anything, and especially that they would form either in vitro or in vivo under sloppy conditions. Note the biosynthesis of lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Incorporation-of-lysergic-acid-into-lysergic-acid-amides-Dashed-lines-indicate_fig6_367116540

I think the ergine-related alkaloids and plant extracts have to be reevaluated with some scientific rigour which goes beyond mixing plant extracts based on vibes and tripping balls. It is okay to do that of course (so as long as you don't encourage risky behaviour in others), but that is not the scientific method.

 

[xdrc]

2C-T sounds potentially therapeutic, but doesn't sound particularly intense. There's not much of a market yet for not very psychedelic psychedelics

I have come across some interesting data which makes it seem lucrative to cross paths with 2C-T once more just to make sure Will take a while unfortunately though!

 

[Allylbenzene]

I have my doubts of these N-acylhemiaminals being significant contributors to anything, and especially that they would form either in vitro or in vivo under sloppy conditions

I think downwardsfromzero (dmt-nexus) outlined it quite well:

This was one of the more visual attempts with natural lysergamide-containing seeds. The experience followed a night involving the consumption of a significant amount of brandy, thus there was an incontestable residue of acetaldehyde in my body.

The seeds themselves, being HBWR, were much more likely to have contained LSA as the principal alkaloid; they will not have been particularly fresh. Although the inference counts as purely anecdotal, I feel it supports at least one of these ideas:

• ...that the 1-acetaldehyde adduct of LSA (or, possibly from what we've learned so far, iso-LSA) is likely to be more of a visionary entheogen than plain LSA itself.
• ...that post-alcoholic acidity in the body promotes the formation of the more visionary iso-LSA from the LSA equilibrium mixture in vivo.
• ...that under physiological conditions, acetaldehyde inhibits the breakdown of LSH such that - in the aforementioned instance - sufficient LSH reached the appropriate receptor sites to produce a mild but significant entheogenic experience.
• ...and/or...:
• ...that, under physiological conditions, acetaldehyde reacts with LSA at the amide nitrogen to (re-)form LSH.

While I consider the last option the least likely, and in the past I have argued against the possibility of it happening, it's still not something I would discount entirely. Still, I wouldn't bank on it and would advise all readers that acetaldehyde conversion of seed extracts containing lysergamide are best carried out in vitro as ethanol and acetaldehyde present health hazards when ingested!

The acetaldehyde adduct would be C2H5O, as CH3COH attached at the indolic nitrogen - another 1-hydroxyethyl group, just like in LSH. From what you describe, this seems like an argument for soaking one's N¹-unsubstituted lysergamides in cold peppermint sherry for a while before consumption. Would this also include tryptamines such as DMT-containing potions for oral consumption, one might wonder? And what about psiloc(yb)in?

As I've mentioned, my most successful plant-derived lysergamide experience - in dreams, of course - albeit with HBWR, coincided with intake of a fairly large quantity of brandy which, in all likelihood, produced a significant level of acetaldehyde within my body, exposing the plant lysergamides to the correct conditions (as reported in the Austin & Fraenkel-Conrat PNAS paper) within my stomach for the putative 1-(1-hydroxyethyl) or, rather, it seems, the 1-(1-ethoxyethyl) derivative to be formed. In this case, the effects were clearly stimulating, unlike the sedative effects usually reported for HBWR. I see that brandy weighs in fairly well on the acetaldehyde content scale as well, btw (post #17)

Looking at the PNAS paper, and the molecular structure "indole after p8441", what we appear to get is a 1-(1-ethoxyethyl)indole, with an ethyl group on the oxygen atom. This would be more lipophilic than the 1-(1-hydroxyethyl) derivative, as would, incidentally, the cinnamaldehyde adduct proposed by 69ron. It is only with the combination of both ethanol and acetaldehyde (EDIT: rather. an alcohol and an aldehyde; see below) that we get a stable product. It would seem likely that under mildly acidic conditions ethanol and cinnamaldehyde (or, we might also surmise, any other sufficiently stable, sterically unhindered aldehyde) would also form a stable adduct.

...
And isovaleraldehyde would lead to the production of a 1-(1-ethoxy-3-methyl-1-butyl)indole derivative under this scheme. That'll have to do for now as I need to sleep. [EDIT: also of interest, we see the following: "Reaction mixtures were also prepared using 1-, 3-, and 4-carbon-chain aldehydes and alcohols. After 24 hr of reaction ... these alternative mixtures were analyzed on the same HPLC system. Reaction products (data not shown) were detected in all cases, except when the aldehyde was formaldehyde, and product retention time increased along with the length of the reagents' carbon chains. The yields decreased with increasing alcohol and aldehyde chain length (methanol/acetaldehyde - butanol/butyraldehyde)."]

 

[JackARoe]

For MG there's varying amounts of LSH and several clavine alkaloids. Most people who aren't able to acquire fresh seeds are getting LSA from HBWR and extracting it

I find this area pretty interesting and glad we have people poking around with the LSH and diving into the ergine-related alkaloids.

I'll be honest, if the only psychedelics we have on Earth are these seeds then I sill believe Nature graced us. Luckly we got the mushroom and cactus too. Plus human ingenuity that created all the synthetics.

I still believe LSD being unleashed on the public with no guides was the best possible way to introduce people. I know some people like Huxley and others wanted a little restriction and guidance with these. But I don't think history could have happened any other way. The government had no idea what to do. The young kids they wanted to fight in their war were sticking flowers in rifles. They had to have police ride around with megaphones claiming "there will be NO 'happening' tonight, please disperse...." I mean if it didn't happen that way who stands on high enough ground to decide who gets to take the stuff? Then finding LSA in nature, fascinating.