Miscellaneous "Weak" psychedelics, threshold producers, and unpleasant poisons: A swing and a miss!

[Nonyascaline]

This is a spinoff of my previous thread The sacred ones... (Your most 'special' psych?) where I found myself discussing with @Esperighanto about the subjective validity of Allylescaline as a powerful psychedelic. I found the substance comparatively dull which appeared to be the community consensus but his counterargument created some great, interesting conversation. Under @JackARoe's suggestion I'm creating this independent thread where we can collectively identify the "duds." In the aforementioned parent thread I collected a few that should be a good starting point so I'll repost them here. (edit: updating the list as time goes on, and sorting them into categories)

Inactive
TMA-3/5 - Trimethoxyamphetamines (Inactive/near inactive relatives of mescaline and TMA-2/4/6)

Threshold-Producing
POMA - 3-methoxy-4-propoxyamphetamine ("150 to 250 mg there was no intensification of effects to proper psychedelia, instead staying at mild confusion, PEA head tingles, serotonergic yawning until fizzling out at about 5 h")

Toxic or High Body Load
5-MeO-AMT - 5-methoxy-α-methyltryptamine (THIS entire thread is basically people just talking about this drug)
LSA - Lysergic acid amide (infamous emetic, intense vasoconstriction - extraction methods lessen health effects)
mCPP - meta-Chlorophenylpiperazine (Hallucinogenic, unpleasant/undesired, mainly 5HT-2c agonist more than 2a)

Underwhelming
5-MeO-DALT - N,N-diallyl-5-methoxytryptamine (Shulgin himself describes it as "light in psychedelic character" in TiHKAL and it produces few visuals)
AL - 4-allyloxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine (Visually and mentally blunted, many trip reports describing this along with my personal experience)
LSZ - Lysergic acid 2,4-dimethylazetidide (Erowid reports, sufficient visuals yet 'lacking in spiritual character' + testimony from comments below)

These "duds" are pretty obscure (for good reason) but they do exist. Borderline inactive things that produce a threshold, or are overwhelmingly uncomfortable/genuinely extremely toxic. There are also just meh ones like AL or LSA. Although this is all far in the realm of subjectivity and a personal interpretation.

Thanks Page
Those who contributed to the idea of / amassing this info:
JackARoe
xdrc

 

[iom]

Yes. I thought HWBR seeds (presumably containing LSA) were crap---apathy and lethargia were primary psychological effects. Apparently some people trip off of these things though. I don't know if this is because of subjectivity or because of plant variability or because maybe individual responses to LSA vary at a biochemical level (as opposed to the level of subjective experience).

 

[Nonyascaline]

Apparently some people trip off of these things though.

I've actually been able to get some pretty decent visuals off of say, 20 seeds in a CWE solution (albeit accompanied by a super uncomfortable body load). My field of view was covered by a complete lattice of hexagons joined together with 120 angles but that is basically the only thing I saw and It was when I peaked. Outside of that I had body cramping, a fuckton of nausea and otherwise just weak ass color enhancement. Major sedation too

 

[Shadow651]

I and a friend found LSZ to be mostly very boring, lack of visuals and very nauseating, saw lots of reports of similar experiences at the time as well, though some appeared to get something from it

 

[xdrc]

Concerning TMA-4, I think it may need re-evaluation:

(with 80 mg) “I was concerned about life issues, with much introspection, for about 6 hours. There were no subjective physical symptoms. It was comparable to about 50 micrograms of LSD, or to 120 milligrams TMA, for me.”

Seems clearly psychedelic to me, although it is surprising, given that 3-DOM (the 3-methyl instead of 4-methyl isomer of DOM) has severe loss of function in the animal model. Would be quite curious to see the 2,3,5-series evaluated, or possibly amalgams of the Ganeshas/halogen DOx (say 2,5-dimethoxy-3-methyl-4-bromo-)...

There are a number of psychedelics or not-quite psychedelics, it really seems like a spectrum. A lot of compounds seem to have attenuated efficacy, never yielding robust psychedelic effects (e.g. 4C-D), but then there are compounds who seem more intermediate (4C-B sounds like one, for instance). But they can still have their worth.

For an example of a serotonergic dud, I volunteer "POMA" (3-methoxy-4-propoxyamphetamine). I saw a report describing that compound rather favourably (can be found in the references of https://isomerdesign.com/pihkal/explore/1505) and could confirm the same dosage range, but between 150 to 250 mg there was no intensification of effects to proper psychedelia, instead staying at mild confusion, PEA head tingles, serotonergic yawning until fizzling out at about 5 h.

 

[Nonyascaline]

Concerning TMA-4, I think it may need re-evaluation:.

Updated accordingly.

Would be quite curious to see the 2,3,5-series evaluated, or possibly amalgams of the Ganeshas/halogen DOx (say 2,5-dimethoxy-3-methyl-4-bromo-)...

The Ganeshas in particular are such an obscure bunch with likewise such alluring reports! I imagine the relatively stable structure of the amphetamine core would give you less hell than all these novel lysergamides the eggheads are driving their efforts towards as of late. There is so much left to discover.
My only fear with the halogenated DOx series is that I have personally experienced cardiotoxic effects and there are multiple independent accounts of this as well. On the other hand the rush of a DOB come up is one of my favorite sensations period.

Your account on POMA is pretty much the textbook definition of what I was thinking of when I made this post. Just looking at the structure it seems active, but as we all know, and I think Shulgin said something along the lines of this, a substance's structure can be tantalizingly psychedelic but inactive in character. If anything the failures makes the discovery of a new effective psychedelic that much more exciting.

Thanks for your reply I got some great insight out of it.

 

[Nonyascaline]

I and a friend found LSZ to be mostly very boring, lack of visuals and very nauseating, saw lots of reports of similar experiences at the time as well, though some appeared to get something from it

What were your dosages? Was your source reliable? After some light lurking erowid seems to have quite a few reports that include contradictory statements along the lines of:
"I began to feel like I had just witnessed the most magical moment of my life."
but to the other side's appeal there are also accounts like:
"I was heavy, nauseated and dysphoric in ways that seemed quite distinct from a typical “downer” LSD trip. These negative feelings did not seem to have a psychological root, but a pharmacological one – the stuff just made me feel bad.
Fortunately, in addition to lacking in the ego-dissolving capacities of LSD, LSZ also seemed to lack the extreme time-dilating qualities of [LSD]."

Frankly a part of me thinks the first trip report guy just had real acid and was lied to. lol

 

[Shadow651]

What were your dosages? Was your source reliable? After some light lurking erowid seems to have quite a few reports that include contradictory statements along the lines of:
"I began to feel like I had just witnessed the most magical moment of my life."
but to the other side's appeal there are also accounts like:
"I was heavy, nauseated and dysphoric in ways that seemed quite distinct from a typical “downer” LSD trip. These negative feelings did not seem to have a psychological root, but a pharmacological one – the stuff just made me feel bad.
Fortunately, in addition to lacking in the ego-dissolving capacities of LSD, LSZ also seemed to lack the extreme time-dilating qualities of [LSD]."

Frankly a part of me thinks the first trip report guy just had real acid and was lied to. lol

They were 150ug tabs, brown with the words LSZ on one side and the chemical structure on the other (I still have one spare, I kept for the novelty and maybe a last tester or have it analysed perhaps).

It was from a very reliable vendor that provided the likes of AL-LAD and some other similar compounds back in 2014. Every thing else I got from them was exactly as expected and high quality. Just checked WEDINOS and can see the same tabs gc-ms tested back at the time and confirmed as LSZ.

It was definitely a little shorter in duration than LSD and did have some similar mental effects, but I specifically remember minor beneficial effects and feeling very nauseous for hours and I don't normally get that from most psychedelics (never taken Ayahuasca, but self-made bridgesii tea barely upsets my guts thankfully)

 

[Opana313]

I recommend you read up on LSI? Tregar's work seems like he has put LSA to bed finally-this is what we are all looking for!!

Lysergamides Post in thread 'LSI, Ancient LSD, Secret of the Eleusis Kykeon and Vedic SOMA'

Feb 10, 2026

Update 2.10.2026, the book is being well received in Australia: [book removed by moderator]

That is nice tregar, post all you want. But no selling. The post was reported a few times. My apologies but continue on.

• tregar

He also has a book out!!

 

[Nonyascaline]

I recommend you read up on LSI? Tregar's work seems like he has put LSA to bed finally-this is what we are all looking for!!

That LSI rabbithole isn't definitively proven yet or potentially ever will be and I feel there are many potential simpler, more likely explanations for the altered effects than the esoteric series of conclusions that ya'll came to. Not totally throwing it out but there is simply no empirical evidence, however, I have an open mind if a proper study comes out. I'd prefer if the LSI stuff stay in its own thread.

LSA and the accompanied alkaloids in morning glory and HBWR have a lengthy history of use so even if the experience produced by consuming the plant material isn't solely responsible to LSA I feel like the categorization of that coagulated mix of chemicals' experience as unpleasant/belonging in this thread is justified under that name.

Plus, I'm happy for you since you think LSI is the bomb nothing wrong with that but that's not what this thread is supposed to discuss. lol feels like you're trying to divert attention towards that topic since the thread calmed down - I feel this even moreso now that you edited your post to plug his book. (my paranoid side speakin there no bad feelings)

 

[Opana313]

Interesting!

My fault brother I didn't realize that what I posted - is off topic for this thread!!! I thought i was shedding light on this new discovery. I appreciate your response and no if anything edit post was just for a link or whatever ALONG with supporting his idea..but I have yet to try it, hence why I started this with "interesting".
Appreciate your view and I never thought about this - I have yet to try it STILL but if so you know I'll be on here the morning after haha

 

[Nonyascaline]

They were 150ug tabs, brown with the words LSZ on one side and the chemical structure on the other (I still have one spare, I kept for the novelty and maybe a last tester or have it analysed perhaps).

I think I've seen those re-distributed especially from a few clear net yet legitimate Canadian RC sites a few years back.

It was definitely a little shorter in duration than LSD and did have some similar mental effects, but I specifically remember minor beneficial effects and feeling very nauseous for hours and I don't normally get that from most psychedelics (never taken Ayahuasca, but self-made bridgesii tea barely upsets my guts thankfully)

After reading a few more erowid reports on top of your account it seems like it has few differences from LSD itself other than a surefire puking session and less time to trip - with the same tolerance production!

One day some LSZhead is gonna come in here and skin my potato

 

[perpetualdawn]

Great idea for a thread.

I tried LSZ once and feel like I didn't give it a super fair shake - I was trying to do some reno work during the trip, pretty bad set and setting. It seemed mildly duddy, but I never could tell if I was just being influenced by the chatter about it at the time. I would like to try it again in a fair setting with an open mind - and I do have a little bit stashed away somewhere. I did not experience any nausea at all from it.

I ate some dataura root once, and it was so horrible and made me feel extremely ill. The plant still makes me shudder when I look at it. The flowers have a beautiful and sinister look to me know, it's hilarious how common it is as a garden plant when it is such an extreme poison/drug.

I had some morning glory seeds once, not HBWR, some other less potent variety. It just made me a bit spaced out and seemed like a dud.

I've always found 2C-B to be fine, but kind of overhyped. Not really a dud, just nothing too special imho. I know it works really well for a lot of people, so don't want to ruffle any feathers, but it also seems like I'm not alone in finding it to not be all that.

 

[Nonyascaline]

I ate some dataura root once, and it was so horrible and made me feel extremely ill. The plant still makes me shudder when I look at it. The flowers have a beautiful and sinister look to me know, it's hilarious how common it is as a garden plant when it is such an extreme poison/drug.

This opens up another can of worms in that do you consider datura to be a psychedelic? They have entirely separate pharmacological profiles of action and datura is closer to, by God, Benadryl than any true psychedelic 5ht-2a agonist.

I've always found 2C-B to be fine, but kind of overhyped. Not really a dud, just nothing too special imho. I know it works really well for a lot of people, so don't want to ruffle any feathers, but it also seems like I'm not alone in finding it to not be all that.

I admit I do have some personal bias here, but the fact that 2C-B is one of the rare few that can be redosed, and the very lax cartoon headspace just makes it feel like a min-maxed hedonist powder. Although I'm biased to the point that I'm also a huge fan of the- at times - masochistic roided out brother of 2C-B, DOB... That damn 2C nasal drip though...

 

[Opana313]

"I've always found 2C-B to be fine, but kind of overhyped. Not really a dud, just nothing too special imho"

@perpetualdawn can you elaborate in more detail? I have not yet been blessed with mescaline/cacti experiences along with all 2C's...just seems like everyone says 2C-B is so hedonistic euphoria with crazy visuals(I am interested in this most as what it may bring for CEV vs open, along with whatever depth and insight it may bring). Sorry to steer ya elsewhere.

I also have had Datura and it was very much more of a fever and migraine than a buzz or even delusional(got a neat scary fever dream out of it, the only plus) I was very young at the time, maybe 16 years old. And yeah I can't believe these angel trumpets are everywhere(think of the kids!) Beautiful plant though. --- side note--- totally glad Hamilton Morris knew his shit when he was in search of the toad in the Amazon, because when he settled for an ayahuasca drink; the lady tried to trade him an maoi containing plant & belladonna angel trumpet!!

 

[xdrc]

I guess most 'real' duds never really wander much further than the laboratory they are made from. Shulgin and others did a great job pre-selecting.

One of the more puzzling duds I find to be MPM. How can 3C-P, proscaline, ALEPH-7, 2C-T-7, MEM and TMA-2 be active but not MPM?

 

[Opana313]

Good point, Datura is a deleriant..shit gasoline fumes can be more "psychedelic", hell yeah I am with you on it not making the list as far as hallucinogens go, since it is obviously not one?

What about Kratom being able to invoke CEV. Or them damn "psychedelic gummies". I can't see how people love 4-aco-dmt but when it comes to these gummies- you never blasted away..it always feels like it is on the verge of being a complete psychedelic experience but you just keep going up(body high/your average pre-peak stimulation) and then fizzels out.

I understand that it may not be 4acodmt and could be a plethora of other analouges or god knows what else since the package is already lying.

I would love to have a full blown trip from these but I guess I would need to eat over a dozen(or more) BUT I fear it wouldn't lead anywhere but the exact previous effects.

 

[perpetualdawn]

This opens up another can of worms in that do you consider datura to be a psychedelic? They have entirely separate pharmacological profiles of action and datura is closer to, by God, Benadryl than any true psychedelic 5ht-2a agonist.

Yeah no I don't consider dataura to be a psychedelic. It's kind of psychedelic-adjacent. There are a few non 5ht-2a psychoactives that get mentioned alongside psychedelics, like nitrous, the dissociatives, salvia, and amanita muscaria, but I'm happy to leave dataura out.

@perpetualdawn can you elaborate in more detail? I have not yet been blessed with mescaline/cacti experiences along with all 2C's...just seems like everyone says 2C-B is so hedonistic euphoria with crazy visuals(I am interested in this most as what it may bring for CEV vs open, along with whatever depth and insight it may bring). Sorry to steer ya elsewhere.

I really like other 2C drugs like 2C-E, 2C-D, 2C-P, 2C-T-2, 2C-T-7, and mescaline is amazing but for some reason 2C-B just always seems like too much of not enough if that makes any sense. Like it's simultaneously overwhelming but with not much "there". It feels a bit hollow and empty like a plastic doll. I wonder if maybe I would like it more if I hadn't heard so much hype about it. Again, personal taste and it's always a limited set of experiences that anyone can draw on so I don't want to piss on anyone's cornflakes here. Horses for courses right?

In terms of other halogenated 2Cs I've tried 2C-I too but not enough to really form an opinion about it. Curious to explore it more, as well as 2C-C, which I know many people on here rate highly. And I'm not rushing to it but I'd definitely give 2C-B another try - I think I've only had it 4 times.

 

[Opana313]

Appreciate your response! This helped immensely. Not sourcing but my best guess is one needs to learn the extractions from Mescaline or pray for a decent vendor..

I have read 2C-E is very deep and you actually get a lot out of...I am guessing some of the others are not quite the same possibly because it is more of a very speedy stimulation mixed into the "trip"??

 

[perpetualdawn]

I don't find any of them to be particularly speedy/stimmy but I know other people describe them that way.
2C-E is great and one of my faves for sure. It has a reputation for being really hardcore, but if you are careful with the dose it doesn't have to be. It has a much steeper dose curve than a lot of other psychedelics like lsd or mushrooms. I really like it around 10-12mg. It gets very strong very quickly above that, haven't tried it above 16mg personally. @Opana313