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Relative Standing in the Afterlife

Shambles

Shambles

Moderator: EADD; MD; Words
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Apologies because I’m sure this is a well-trodden path… but…

Christians generally believe there is a possibility they will enter Heaven. Conversely others will be condemned to Hell.

Obviously, sometimes the Heaven-headed will inevitably have friends and/or family sent to Hell.

How can this be? Surely Heaven is not heavenly with the sure and certain knowledge others are in Hell.

Even going with the obvious - Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Stalin, Donald Trump (;)) etc - finite evil is, by definition, infinitely less evil than eternal damnation.

So how do the Heavenly get to feel truly Heavenly knowing others do not? Personally I would feel thoroughly vile knowing I was in heavenly bliss whilst others were not… which is clearly paradoxical.

I know this is probably a pretty basic question but I don’t have much - if any - interest in apologetics, I really want to hear personal takes if possible cos this is a question that has never gone away for me.
 
Those who choose heaven act in accordance and are rewarded as such.
Those who choose hell act in accordance and are rewarded as such.

Everyone chooses.

Those who think they can tell where someone is going may have a surprise; we don't actually know what is in the hearts of others nor what will be the deciding factors and it is not our place to judge what others may or may not deserve.


Bow down before the one you serve; you're gonna get what you deserve. -NIN
 
That’s standard apologetics and doesn’t answer my question.

If one happens to end up in heaven that status is immediately made redundant by the simple existence of hell.

I just don’t see a way around that but would honestly like to hear genuine responses cos I truly would like to know.
 
Shambles said:
That’s standard apologetics and doesn’t answer my question.

If one happens to end up in heaven that status is immediately made redundant by the simple existence of hell.

I just don’t see a way around that but would honestly like to hear genuine responses cos I truly would like to know.
Click to expand...
Sorry, no one knows the answer. That's rather the point. ;)
 
I'm not Christian, or believer in heaven nor hell but perhaps Christian god just erases the mind and you live in lalaland unaware of any suffering or anymore human thinking,just in a perpetual state of orgasmic bliss.
 
Idk....sometimes think that he'll is here..or maybe here is just purgatory.....hell-this is underworld.....the place that all dead gone...heaven-just a way to perfection
Can't be reached,but must had intention to do it despite all.paradox.As I remember from the Bible only two people got reach d heaven while being alive-Enoh and St.Elijah.Christ said on the cross to one of the bandits(those on the right side of him)-"u will be with me tonight in Heaven"
Three person till now in Heaven-according Bible....who else.....may be saints....not much like number....so I think that conception of hell,purgatory and hell are misunderstood somehow.....or everyone have different interpretation....sooner or later we'll see.....or may be not


..
 
Shambles said:
Apologies because I’m sure this is a well-trodden path… but…

Christians generally believe there is a possibility they will enter Heaven. Conversely others will be condemned to Hell.

Obviously, sometimes the Heaven-headed will inevitably have friends and/or family sent to Hell.

How can this be? Surely Heaven is not heavenly with the sure and certain knowledge others are in Hell.

Even going with the obvious - Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Stalin, Donald Trump (;)) etc - finite evil is, by definition, infinitely less evil than eternal damnation.

So how do the Heavenly get to feel truly Heavenly knowing others do not? Personally I would feel thoroughly vile knowing I was in heavenly bliss whilst others were not… which is clearly paradoxical.

I know this is probably a pretty basic question but I don’t have much - if any - interest in apologetics, I really want to hear personal takes if possible cos this is a question that has never gone away for me.
Click to expand...
Well not being a Christian at this point in my life but I was raised going to church on Sundays. I somehow remember the minister speaking on the difference between faith and belief.There are far too many holes in the stories of heaven and hell to have faith or belief in their existence. Maybe when you go to heaven all those ppl that go to the fire are wiped from your brain so you won't feel their loss. This is, after all, God's house. The ones that go to the fire 👹 🔥 get to remember everything and everyone brighter than ever. It's the unanswerable questions that are the most fun,
 
It is best for me not to believe in either heaven or hell. Why should I try to be something I am not? That's what christianity is about...striving to be like Jesus. No thank you, I am perfectly fine being me.
 
Cheshire_Kat said:
Sorry, no one knows the answer. That's rather the point. ;)
Click to expand...

That’s no answer… apparently by design? Seems like a massive flaw in the design though.

Infinite punishment for finite crimes is inherently immoral. There’s literally no meaningful comeback to that imo.

For example, one of my lil brothers committed suicide in his late teens. We don’t exactly know why but it’s strongly suspected he was struggling with his sexuality. Which is crazy cos we were a very “liberal” household.

But, according to standard Christian theology, he is to burn in Hell forever. Twice over.

This is sick beyond belief. How does anybody who believes truly believe they could “enjoy” Heaven whilst knowing shit like that?
 
Nas47 said:
Idk....sometimes think that he'll is here…
Click to expand...

That is definitely not standard Christian theology. Hell is a place of eternal torment. Life is but three score and ten, as they say.

Again, infinite punishment for finite crimes Is inherently immoral.

This is not meant as a gotcha question: I just want honest - and ideally meaningful - answers to an honest - and if I do say so myself - heartfelt question.
 
Robi said:
I'm not Christian, or believer in heaven nor hell but perhaps Christian god just erases the mind and you live in lalaland unaware of any suffering or anymore human thinking,just in a perpetual state of orgasmic bliss.
Click to expand...

… which would completely negate the point of actually living turning supposedly free will having beings into mindless zombies.
 
Shambles said:
That’s no answer… apparently by design? Seems like a massive flaw in the design though.

Infinite punishment for finite crimes is inherently immoral. There’s literally no meaningful comeback to that imo.

For example, one of my lil brothers committed suicide in his late teens. We don’t exactly know why but it’s strongly suspected he was struggling with his sexuality. Which is crazy cos we were a very “liberal” household.

But, according to standard Christian theology, he is to burn in Hell forever. Twice over.

This is sick beyond belief. How does anybody who believes truly believe they could “enjoy” Heaven whilst knowing shit like that?
Click to expand...
I don't judge anyone. "Christians" who do are "Christians" in name only. Christ told us repeatedly not to. Your brother may very well be in heaven. I don't know because I am not God and cannot judge anyone. I have enough trouble with my own life and direction. Trust me when I say I am not going to try to convince you to believe in anything. That is your choice.

And yet everyone makes those choice with free will and everyone is responsible for those choices. The best I can do is to ask to be forgiven for what I have done.
 
My brother - like the rest of us - is not a believer. So make that triple damned.

You may feel comfort in passing judgement to a god but, being brought up in a Christian country, this shit is horrific.

According to literally all Christian theology people like me, my dead brother and pretty much everyone I know we should be tortured for all eternity.

I just cannot see how anybody could live with themselves “knowing” that to be the case.
 
Good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell, right? Morality is a subjective thing though. Religion and spiritual systems of belief are arguably mechanisms we use to come to terms with our mortality. Most animals don't worry about living or dying they just do it, we're the exception there.

So maybe, rather than thinking of heaven and hell being places we go to after we die, think of them as metaphors to represent ones own perception of their standing when they die. If your last waking thoughts before you die are of guilt and regret, it's hell; if they're of satisfaction and contentment its heaven.

With that view, a belief in heaven and hell would be a psychological tool to ensure that one lives as well as possible according to their own definition so that one can die without regrets.
 
Shambles said:
That is definitely not standard Christian theology. Hell is a place of eternal torment. Life is but three score and ten, as they say.

Again, infinite punishment for finite crimes Is inherently immoral.

This is not meant as a gotcha question: I just want honest - and ideally meaningful - answers to an honest - and if I do say so myself - heartfelt question.
Click to expand...
Correct...that is not standard Christian East Orthodox theology....these are just thrown thoughts...u know....to help the traffic somekind
 
Shambles said:
Apologies because I’m sure this is a well-trodden path… but…

Christians generally believe there is a possibility they will enter Heaven. Conversely others will be condemned to Hell.

Obviously, sometimes the Heaven-headed will inevitably have friends and/or family sent to Hell.

How can this be? Surely Heaven is not heavenly with the sure and certain knowledge others are in Hell.

Even going with the obvious - Hitler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Stalin, Donald Trump (;)) etc - finite evil is, by definition, infinitely less evil than eternal damnation.

So how do the Heavenly get to feel truly Heavenly knowing others do not? Personally I would feel thoroughly vile knowing I was in heavenly bliss whilst others were not… which is clearly paradoxical.

I know this is probably a pretty basic question but I don’t have much - if any - interest in apologetics, I really want to hear personal takes if possible cos this is a question that has never gone away for me.
Click to expand...

I'll answer this from a Christian perspective. I do not hold these beliefs but I'm versed in Christianity to speak to it a bit.

Christians believe in the transmutation of the soul. Entering Paradise means you are transformed into an elevated version of yourself that no longer experiences pain, sorrow, anguish, grief, etc. So regardless of where damned souls go or don't go, people in Paradise do not dwell on it or the memory is somehow not important anymore. Furthermore, there are aspects of the Christian world that believe divine justice is part of Paradise, it's not absent. So the fact that some people are punished and some are rewarded is part of the fabric of Heaven itself, knowing that you are part of the righteous who made it through the gates of Paradise. It is an eternal joy to know you chose God and now you get to reside with Him.

It depends on which Christian and which Christian sect you ask. There isn't one view. Some believe that God is the great reconcilier, so damned souls do not remain damned forever. Eventually, God makes everything whole in the universe, so even those who are damned are eventually liberated and elevated. Others believe the soul, after a time in damnation, simply dissipates and ceases to exist. So the suffering of damnation is not literally forever. These are different ways in which the suffering of the damned is limited, which means those in Paradise do not have to worry because they know that the damned person will eventually be reconciled. The fire and brimstone version of hell is not Biblical, it comes from Dante's Inferno, a book written in the 1200s if I remember right. It became so popular that those fiery images became associated with hell.

Me personally, speaking for myself and not Christianity, I think there are many heavens and many hells and they are mostly just consequences of our own choosing. And none are forever. Nothing can be forever. Impermanence governs the universe. Even if suffering lasts for a million years, it eventually ends. I think Heaven and Hell in the Bible are metaphors, not literal places. In the original Koine version of the Bible (the oldest we have access to), Hell is simply the absence of God. It is a choice to turn away and think of the material world as being all there is, to give up on matters of the spirit. The world is full of torment, impermanence, anger, greed, and ignorance. Without any connection to spirit, if you think this is really all there is and take that belief to its very end, you will suffer. Without a transcendental principle, you are done for in this life. It doesn't have to be God, but there has to be something above it all, something symbolically perfected, that you can place your faith in otherwise you will degenerate.

There are Christian literalists who say it's all real though... hell is a real place, so is heaven, etc. I could never be a literalist. I think the Bible is one big allegory.
 
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