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Relative Standing in the Afterlife

Foreigner said:
I'll answer this from a Christian perspective. I do not hold these beliefs but I'm versed in Christianity to speak to it a bit.

Christians believe in the transmutation of the soul. Entering Paradise means you are transformed into an elevated version of yourself that no longer experiences pain, sorrow, anguish, grief, etc. So regardless of where damned souls go or don't go, people in Paradise do not dwell on it or the memory is somehow not important anymore. Furthermore, there are aspects of the Christian world that believe divine justice is part of Paradise, it's not absent. So the fact that some people are punished and some are rewarded is part of the fabric of Heaven itself, knowing that you are part of the righteous who made it through the gates of Paradise. It is an eternal joy to know you chose God and now you get to reside with Him.

It depends on which Christian and which Christian sect you ask. There isn't one view. Some believe that God is the great reconcilier, so damned souls do not remain damned forever. Eventually, God makes everything whole in the universe, so even those who are damned are eventually liberated and elevated. Others believe the soul, after a time in damnation, simply dissipates and ceases to exist. So the suffering of damnation is not literally forever. These are different ways in which the suffering of the damned is limited, which means those in Paradise do not have to worry because they know that the damned person will eventually be reconciled. The fire and brimstone version of hell is not Biblical, it comes from Dante's Inferno, a book written in the 1200s if I remember right. It became so popular that those fiery images became associated with hell.

Me personally, speaking for myself and not Christianity, I think there are many heavens and many hells and they are mostly just consequences of our own choosing. And none are forever. Nothing can be forever. Impermanence governs the universe. Even if suffering lasts for a million years, it eventually ends. I think Heaven and Hell in the Bible are metaphors, not literal places. In the original Koine version of the Bible (the oldest we have access to), Hell is simply the absence of God. It is a choice to turn away and think of the material world as being all there is, to give up on matters of the spirit. The world is full of torment, impermanence, anger, greed, and ignorance. Without any connection to spirit, if you think this is really all there is and take that belief to its very end, you will suffer. Without a transcendental principle, you are done for in this life. It doesn't have to be God, but there has to be something above it all, something symbolically perfected, that you can place your faith in otherwise you will degenerate.

There are Christian literalists who say it's all real though... hell is a real place, so is heaven, etc. I could never be a literalist. I think the Bible is one big allegory.
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Well said
 
Interesting… I would argue the “format the soul” version negates free will so is probably incompatible with many versions of Christianity.

The “many heavens an hells” approach is very much more a Buddhist approach. I see this as somewhat more humane as there is ultimately a path to purification.

I’m greatly approving of this more nuanced approach to the discussion and look forward to hearing more :)
 
Anyone ever consider that “morality” is a human construct, and perhaps those that run the afterlife have a completely different moral compass, or none at all? Maybe everyone who dies ceases to exist, or maybe all go through some default pathway to a communal consciousness or reincarnation. Personally, I think we just die, and our consciousness with us.
 
To put it to a single word: Sunyata.

I'm not a materialistic person. I never really have been. This has played into my favor through me learning to develop life skills, patience and calmness being among them.

I do believe in Samsara, but I don't know if I agree with the principle that it is Karmic.

I acknowledge Karma as a motivational guideline of sorts, because I understand the peril that humanity would fall into with no hope at all.

I have learned through Tantric Practices and have opened myself to humility at the awe of infinity, before seeing in its distant horizon wherein my vision of it ceases.

I ride on clouds between worlds, navigating in meditative trance.
I started to study Dream Yoga as I experimented with learning to developmentally taper and control my body against its labors and challenges of my active life.

And recently I had a dream about information I read MONTHS ago that I'd forgotten I read, about Saraha and his Radish Curry Dakini.
Only it was me instead of Saraha, my girlfriend instead of his Radish Curry Dakini, and I was lost in time in meditative trance.

I believe that this world and the afterlife are the same.
That the difference, or what makes the difference, is your own mental experience.
Heaven and Hell to me are conceptual of the same room, only Heaven is when the light in that room is on, and Hell is when it is off.

I do believe that we are eternal beings and in the curse of reincarnation and the wheel of Samsara.
And Karma does have some effect but its predominate purpose is to save you, and I don't know if contributive factors really contain it or not, because I've seen a lot of bad things happen to good people I've loved who truly did nothing wrong.
So I believe that nature has more of an important role in this as well, one that we underestimate the importance of in forethought.

I adhere to Karma as best I can for my circumstances and challenges because I believe it is a good thing to do, it also makes life a lot easier.
But I cannot teach that lesson to anybody, it is a lesson learned only through experience itself.
The lesson that comes with it though is, that it is the small things in life that give you the most hope, when everything else comes crashing down.

If you have learned to love the intricate details of nature and let it pacify your rage with the wonder of its splendor, you can sail this comfortably.
If learning to do that is what by happenstance Karmically sets you free, well then, it's okay to be okay for once, and accept.

I cannot affect the world around me beyond certain limitations, but I can hold balance, to the world within me.
 
"Afterlife" is obviously made up. It's really denial, a defense against to truth of one's own mortality. Shame on people pushing these delusions and fantasies as if the were truth and fact. We have enough of that bullshit in politics. Too many people living in fantasy and alternate realties. No wonder humans aren't progressing.
 
Dr. Morphine said:
"Afterlife" is obviously made up. It's really denial, a defense against to truth of one's own mortality. Shame on people pushing these delusions and fantasies as if the were truth and fact. We have enough of that bullshit in politics. Too many people living in fantasy and alternate realties. No wonder humans aren't progressing.
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We don't really know. That's why it's the Afterlife.

Human nature doesn't change... much.

But we can arrange some things in our lives better... together.

So we should.
 
Chaurus said:
We don't really know. That's why it's the Afterlife.

Human nature doesn't change... much.

But we can arrange some things in our lives better... together.

So we should.
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No, we don't really know for certain the origins of the universe, but some people go making things up instead of admitting that. Then they continue making up all sorts of things.. that's where things like afterlife, virgin birth, walking on water, resurrection with ascension into the sky come in. People get carried away with the making stuff up. All that is obvious fiction and irrational nonsense. Sorry, not gonna validate fiction as fact.
 
Dr. Morphine said:
No, we don't really know for certain the origins of the universe, but some people go making things up instead of admitting that. Then they continue making up all sorts of things.. that's where things like afterlife, virgin birth, walking on water, resurrection with ascension into the sky come in. People get carried away with the making stuff up. All that is obvious fiction and irrational nonsense. Sorry, not gonna validate fiction as fact.
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Science just pushes the boundaries further away.

What lies beyond... lies beyond.
 
Seems like an all forgiving god would not want to send one to hell -- in that sense I like Judaism.

Barring that --- it is up to oneself to choose a path of righteousness and goodwill (at notable cost). As that is the freewill we were given?
 
Chaurus said:
Science just pushes the boundaries further away.

What lies beyond... lies beyond.
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It provides a more plausible, rational explanation for things and doesn't claim to reach absolute and final conclusions. Only dishonest religious people claim to hold absolute truth, without actual proof or evidence for a plethora of supernatural claims. And those claims are obvious fiction pushed as fact. Pure stupidity.
 
notsmokeymcpot42088 said:
Seems like an all forgiving god would not want to send one to hell -- in that sense I like Judaism.

Barring that --- it is up to oneself to choose a path of righteousness and goodwill (at notable cost). As that is the freewill we were given?
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Internal logic generally only exists within religion
when it is convenient. The sense religion makes is religious.
 
Chaurus said:
Internal logic generally only exists within religion
when it is convenient. The sense religion makes is religious.
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Things like walking on water and resurrection from the dead with ascension into the sky, which an overwhelming majority of them choose to believe (literally,) is the very antithesis of rational. I tell you, you can't even get most of them to admit something as simple as that. So defend their own irrationality requires just as much dishonesty as it initially required to believe such nonsense in the first place. Granted some of them know it's bullshit yet they want to be part of some delusional collective. Intellectual honesty and all sorts of other things sacrificed for some membership.
 
notsmokeymcpot42088 said:
Seems like an all forgiving god would not want to send one to hell -- in that sense I like Judaism.

Barring that --- it is up to oneself to choose a path of righteousness and goodwill (at notable cost). As that is the freewill we were given?
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I’m not sure I really believe in free will.

Science suggests it’s unlikely the case. Block universe, relativity etc. Not to mention the gap between observation and cognition being a near eternity in atomic terms.

Christianity determines it is not the case. God knowing everything you will ever do and all that. Totally precludes meaningful free will.

At this point I think the onus is very much on finding evidence for free will rather than against it.
 
Chaurus said:
Internal logic generally only exists within religion
when it is convenient. The sense religion makes is religious.
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Are you pointing out that most only apply religion when it is convenient to? If so YES to a disturbing amount. Not me though (clutches pearls) - really I try to apply the values across the board.
Or did I miss something in there - if so please extrapolate as I missed it lol

Shambles -- You have some disturbingly accurate points. How would one prove free will? (Real question)

Any attempt to do so will be no doubt written off as predetermined as was all conversation leading to such.
 
Dr. Morphine said:
Things like walking on water and resurrection from the dead with ascension into the sky, which an overwhelming majority of them choose to believe (literally,) is the very antithesis of rational. I tell you, you can't even get most of them to admit something as simple as that. So defend their own irrationality requires just as much dishonesty as it initially required to believe such nonsense in the first place. Granted some of them know it's bullshit yet they want to be part of some delusional collective. Intellectual honesty and all sorts of other things sacrificed for some membership.
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Ohh this. I tend not to read too much into it past "Do unto others".

When I was younger I had some theories though.
Coulda hydroplaned? Water into wine, amanita muscara mushrooms you piss out the active ingredient a red color (Would not taste like wine though!)

I agree though to interpret the Bible literally is a fools errand and you gunna have some cognitive dissonance at play with directly contradictory statements laced throughout
 
notsmokeymcpot42088 said:
Ohh this. I tend not to read too much into it past "Do unto others".

When I was younger I had some theories though.
Coulda hydroplaned? Water into wine, amanita muscara mushrooms you piss out the active ingredient a red color (Would not taste like wine though!)

I agree though to interpret the Bible literally is a fools errand and you gunna have some cognitive dissonance at play with directly contradictory statements laced throughout
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I'm really just talking about the obvious fiction being taken literally because it's sold that way to people of just about any age you can think of. When people reject science and reason for supernatural fiction, that's a problem in a modern society.
 
notsmokeymcpot42088 said:
Shambles -- You have some disturbingly accurate points. How would one prove free will? (Real question)

Any attempt to do so will be no doubt written off as predetermined as was all conversation leading to such.
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You also make a valid point. Very tricky thing to prove is free will. It’s certainly asserted by folk… but evidence is hard to pin down.

Meanwhile, evidence to the contrary continues to pile up - and seems to increase rather than decrease as time goes on.

Frankly I’ve made my peace with the absence of free will. We have the illusion of it and that feels good enough for us, I guess.
 
Watched a buckwild video earlier. Jesuit priest when asked this question said that whilst the heavenly will remember their hellborne friends and relatives, they will trust in their god’s plan until the Final Judgement whereupon they will be reunited with their unfortunate loved ones who will be “hideously deformed, ugly and transformed into monsters” thus proving god’s point and demonstrating “infinite love” and will ultimately be grateful their loved ones are damned forever.

Wow. Just wow.

8o
 
Wow that is some twisted logic

The "Supernatural" version of heavan made enough since. I think it was like everyone has there own perfect (For them) personal universe complete with all people who were in you're real universe (Who you want? I forget it was a CW show lol
 
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