🌟🌟 Social 🌟🌟 PD Social Thread 2022-2026 v. Year of the Phenethylamine

[jveiojajoivioedsac]

Xanax, but close

What does Xanax do to MDMA and 2C-B? I thought it would make you go to sleep.

 

[unodelacosa]

What does Xanax do to MDMA and 2C-B? I thought it would make you go to sleep.

Well Xanax is GABA-ergic, like alcohol and GHB, for example. Like other benzos, it's sedating, hypnotic, amnesic, and it's a musculoskeletal relaxant. Xanax's strong suit is anxiolysis, at which it excels – I simply cannot feel panicked on alprazolam. It generally triggers the parasympathetic nervous system (opposite of fight or flight), calming your nerves and lessening adrenergic responses, allowing blood to flow toward the skin away from the muscles, and lowering tension in the body.

It will lessen the psychedelic effects in 2C-B, and it will calm down the effects of MDMA, but it won't completely eliminate either one of them. If you take enough, yes, it will put your ass to sleep, but it's best not to use benzos except for sparingly here and there. They're not something you can use everyday without developing serious tolerance + dependency, and then it becomes a medical problem bc sudden cessation of a large benzo habit has been known to throw people into convulsions where you could potentially swallow your own tongue and asphyxiate. So please do us all a favor and don't do this. Be smart and responsible whenever you use any drug, as I know you will. Research, identify the pitfalls, and fuckin' avoid them. Diversify your drug interests, bc honing in on just one drug and using it incessantly will ruin you, and it's not worth the ruination when you can easily stay buzzing around with the rest of us in this beehive we call Earth.

Good luck!

 

[chris_p]

What does Xanax do to MDMA and 2C-B? I thought it would make you go to sleep.

For when im coming down

 

[Allylbenzene]

Imo synthetic and semisynthetic xanthines are the key, once I get my lab back up and running I'll be taking a series of swings at maximizing the euphoria you can get from theobromine while minimizing physical stimulation. Will likely need to pair it with an anxiolytic like L-theanine with phenibut, but that's fine. I'm just trying to make myself the best variants of caffeine pills I can hahaha.

Have you tried the xanthine called theacrine? It's available from a few places. A nice alternative to caffeine. Adding Scopoletin for it's uplifting/euphoric effects too. Scopoletin shows activity at 5-HT2A, α1/α2-adrenergic and D2 receptors. Found in Viburnum opulus (Guelder rose), Brunfelsia grandiflora and Mexican tarragon.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014299910006345

I'd recommend checking out uridine and agmatine too, they have their own unique benefits. Agmatine as a disassociative (NMDA antagonist, sigma-1 agonist) with 5-HT2A, AMPA and mTOR psychedelic undertones. Uridine as an NMDA antagonist, pro-GABA, AMPA agonist and pro-BDNF (neurogenesis).

 

[Psychestim]

Have you tried the xanthine called theacrine? It's available from a few places. A nice alternative to caffeine.

Imo synthetic and semisynthetic xanthines are the key, once I get my lab back up and running I'll be taking a series of swings at maximizing the euphoria you can get from theobromine while minimizing physical stimulation.

Has anyone of you tried pure 8-chlorotheophylline? Have been curious about it for a while. I’ve never seen a report apart from dramamine where it is the counter ion of the diphenhydramine base.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Has anyone of you tried pure 8-chlorotheophylline? Have been curious about it for a while. I’ve never seen a report apart from dramamine where it is the counter ion of the diphenhydramine base.

Never tried. Maybe caffeine wasn't chosen because it's too strong as a metabolic stimulant (see here for why). Imo theacrine is likely the most recreational xanthine although i've never tried methyl liberine or paraxanthine (a caffeine metabolite).

The xanthines uridine and inosine have worthwhile therapeutic benefits. NMDA antagonism, anti-cortisol, pro-BDNF (think neurogenesis), dopamie system repair (upregulation).

Imo synthetic and semisynthetic xanthines are the key, once I get my lab back up and running I'll be taking a series of swings at maximizing the euphoria you can get from theobromine while minimizing physical stimulation.

Here's some info on caffeines properties which partly explains it's effects. It's stronger as an anti-serotonin than blocking adenosine according to the paper.
Looks like it's a beta-adrenergic agonist, anti-cholinergic and blocks 5-HT1, 5-HT2, GABA-A and A1 adenosine receptors. The GABA-A blocking is probably why the theanine pairs so well with caffeine and smoothes it out, theanine is pro-GABA.
Caffeine also stimulates mitochondrial (metabolic) function, mitochondria produce ATP, CO2, most hormones (progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA etc).
I wonder if theobromine shares any of these properties (other than the adenosine antagonism).

...it looks like caffeine does behave as 5-HT2 antagonist according to this study. Human dose equivalent to achieve these effects would be about 7mg/kg daily for 7 days. What is also of note is that caffeine seems to be a stronger serotonin antagonist than adenosine antagonist, and adenosine antagonism was thought to be caffeine's primary role.

Chronic Caffeine Alters the Density of Adenosine, Adrenergic, Cholinergic, GABA, and Serotonin Receptors and Calcium Channels in Mouse Brain

"1. Chronic ingestion of caffeine by male NIH strain mice alters the density of a variety of central receptors.

2. The density of cortical A1 adenosine receptors is increased by 20%, while the density of striatal A2Aadenosine receptors is unaltered.

3. The densities of cortical β1 and cerebellar β2 adrenergic receptors are reduced by ca. 25%, while the densities of cortical α1 and α2 adrenergic receptors are not significantly altered. Densities of striatal D1 and D2 dopaminergic receptors are unaltered. The densities of cortical 5 HT1 and 5 HT2 serotonergic receptors are increased by 26–30%. Densities of cortical muscarinic and nicotinic receptors are increased by 40–50%. The density of cortical benzodiazepine-binding sites associated with GABAA receptors is increased by 65%, and the affinity appears slightly decreased. The density of cortical MK-801 sites associated with NMDA-glutaminergic receptors appear unaltered.

4. The density of cortical nitrendipine-binding sites associated with calcium channels is increased by 18%.

5. The results indicate that chronic ingestion of caffeine equivalent to about 100 mg/kg/day in mice causes a wide range of biochemical alterations in the central nervous system."

This is the table summarizing the effects of caffeine on various receptors and ion channels.
Chronic Caffeine Alters the Density of Adenosine, Adrenergic, Cholinergic, GABA, and Serotonin Receptors and Calcium Channels in Mouse Brain
...
Increase in "receptor" density implies caffeine is an antagonist at that "receptor". Hence, the increase in densities of adenosine, serotonin, GABA, nicotine, etc receptor

 

[perpetualdawn]

@Allylbenzene woah I had to look up theacrine because I'd never heard of it, and apparently it's found in cupuaçu (a very exotic Brazillian amazon fruit) and in chinese bitter tea - both of which I've tried and had no idea about the stimulant effects or about theacrine. Very interesting. Bitter tea is really hard to enjoy, but my tolerance for bitterness is a lot higher as I get older and more bitter so I feel motivated to try it again. Cupuaçu is really special, it makes an amazing ice cream. Very floral. I really recommend it if anyone here gets the chance and has not already!

 

[xdrc]

Has anyone of you tried pure 8-chlorotheophylline? Have been curious about it for a while. I’ve never seen a report apart from dramamine where it is the counter ion of the diphenhydramine base.

These halo-xanthines may also be useful for making captagon-like pro-drugs of phenethylamines surpassing molecular weight limits in some legislations.

 

[Allylbenzene]

@Allylbenzene woah I had to look up theacrine because I'd never heard of it, and apparently it's found in cupuaçu (a very exotic Brazillian amazon fruit) and in chinese bitter tea - both of which I've tried and had no idea about the stimulant effects or about theacrine. Very interesting.

Theacrine is sold as a pure powder too, at least in Britain.

 

[perpetualdawn]

@Allylbenzene it has such a long half-life eh? I could see myself getting insomniac on it

 

[Allylbenzene]

@Allylbenzene it has such a long half-life eh? I could see myself getting insomniac on it

It's reported to be like a relaxing vesion of caffeine. Traditionally, the tea is drank for uplifting relaxation iirc.
I'm sure pro-GABA things like theanine/linalool/agmatine/uridine/CBG/magnolol/honokiol would easily calm things down.

Theacrine, i.e., 1,3,7,9-tetramethyluric acid, is one of the major purine alkaloids found in leaf of a wild tea plant species Camellia kucha. Theacrine has been attracted great attentions academically owing to its diverse health benefits. Present review examines the advances in the research on the health beneficial effects of theacrine, including antioxidant effect, anti-inflammatory effect, locomotor activation and reducing fatigue effects, improving cognitive effect, hypnotic effect, ameliorating lipid metabolism and inhibiting breast cancer cell metastasis effect.

This suggests that theacrine possesses potent sedative and hypnotic properties and its central nervous system effects is different from those of caffeine and theobromine.
...
Theacrine worked as a non-selective adenosine receptor agonist to induce a hypnotic effect through the adenosine system.

Theacrine From Camellia kucha and Its Health Beneficial Effects - PMC

Theacrine, i.e., 1,3,7,9-tetramethyluric acid, is one of the major purine alkaloids found in leaf of a wild tea plant species Camellia kucha Hung T. Chang. Theacrine has been attracted great attentions academically owing to its diverse health ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[perpetualdawn]

@Allylbenzene well I'll definitely give bitter tea a second shake, this is very intriguing. Maybe track down the powder form if the tea is still tastes too bitter to drink.

 

[Allylbenzene]

From the paper I linked above:

Theacrine is structurally similar to caffeine, but in fact its physiological effects are quite different from the latter. Theacrine is shown to be stimulatory when used in higher doses, however, it can actually have a sedative effect when used in low doses such as the amount consumed through tea leaves of Camellia kucha. Oral administration of theacrine (10 and 30 mg/kg) could significantly prolong the sleeping time induced by pentobarbital (p < 0.01), while caffeine and theobromine exhibited an inverted effect on mice. This suggests that theacrine possesses potent sedative and hypnotic properties and its central nervous system effects is different from those of caffeine and theobromine.

@Allylbenzene well I'll definitely give bitter tea a second shake, this is very intriguing. Maybe track down the powder form if the tea is still tastes too bitter to drink.

There's also roasted twig tea.

 

[Esperighanto]

It's reported to be like a relaxing vesion of caffeine. Traditionally, the tea is drank for uplifting relaxation iirc.
I'm sure pro-GABA things like theanine/linalool/agmatine/uridine/CBG/magnolol/honokiol would easily calm things down.

Theacrine From Camellia kucha and Its Health Beneficial Effects - PMC

Theacrine, i.e., 1,3,7,9-tetramethyluric acid, is one of the major purine alkaloids found in leaf of a wild tea plant species Camellia kucha Hung T. Chang. Theacrine has been attracted great attentions academically owing to its diverse health ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I've actually got a baggie of theacrine about ten feet away from me. I don't know if I'd call it noticeably sedative, but it's certainly weaker than caffeine and a little bit more euphoric. It reminds me of the mania that can come from 15-30mg of ketamine, or 0.25mg of Xanax, the way that there's an overlap in light sedation and mania.

 

[Allylbenzene]

I've actually got a baggie of theacrine about ten feet away from me. I don't know if I'd call it noticeably sedative, but it's certainly weaker than caffeine and a little bit more euphoric. It reminds me of the mania that can come from 15-30mg of ketamine, or 0.25mg of Xanax, the way that there's an overlap in light sedation and mania.

Dose wise, I meant the amount of theacrine from a cup of Kukicha twig/leaf tea. Who knows, maybe the plant also contains theanine? It probably conrtains polyphenols like EGCG which have their own effects.
From the paper I linked in my previous post:

Theacrine is structurally similar to caffeine, but in fact its physiological effects are quite different from the latter. Theacrine is shown to be stimulatory when used in higher doses, however, it can actually have a sedative effect when used in low doses such as the amount consumed through tea leaves of Camellia kucha.

Sounds like a good combo would be theacrine + agmatine (similar MOA to ketamine) + Magnolia extract (GABA PAM/CB1/CB2)
Agmatine itself potentiates cannabinoids and triggers endogenous opioid release (via alpha-2 adrenergic R).

 

[perpetualdawn]

There's also roasted twig tea.

It looks like this tea is made from the normal tea plant Camellia sinensis, I guess the stems and twigs must have a different balance of caffeine/theobromine/theacrine than the leaves do. Interesting.

 

[CavernsoftheMind]

Scrolling through erowids experience vaults makes me sad the days of methylone & it's hype tail riders are gone.

It's been so long since I've tried methylone, ethylone & 5-Methylethylone.
They really deserve a place in the drug market.

 

[Allylbenzene]

It looks like this tea is made from the normal tea plant Camellia sinensis, I guess the stems and twigs must have a different balance of caffeine/theobromine/theacrine than the leaves do. Interesting.

Looks like there's theanine in the mix too.

Theanine, a tea plant (Camellia sinensis)-specific non-proteinogenic amino acid, is one of the most important components conferring the taste quality and health benefits of tea. It is primarily synthesized in roots of tea plants and transported to new shoots, where it is mainly distributed to the young stem; however, tea is predominantly produced from young leaves. To promote more theanine allocation to young leaves, the molecular mechanism underlying theanine distribution between stems and leaves requires elucidation. In this study, we found the ratios of stem-to-leaf theanine content in the new shoots of 11 tea plant cultivars ranged from 3.8 to 8.8.

 

[Esperighanto]

Scrolling through erowids experience vaults makes me sad the days of methylone & it's hype tail riders are gone.

It's been so long since I've tried methylone, ethylone & 5-Methylethylone.
They really deserve a place in the drug market.

I've never tried these, as just judging by the phenethylamine SAR, they should be weaker and less impressive than MDA, MDMA, 6-APB, etc., but as somebody who finds a ton of empathogenic value in certain psychedelics (mescaline, 25X-NBXX's, 2C-B, etc) do you think these would be worth trying?

It breaks my heart to think of 5-Methyl-3,4-Methylenedioxy-anything being used on ethylone instead of 5-Me-MDA.

 

[CavernsoftheMind]

I've never tried these, as just judging by the phenethylamine SAR, they should be weaker and less impressive than MDA, MDMA, 6-APB, etc., but as somebody who finds a ton of empathogenic value in certain psychedelics (mescaline, 25X-NBXX's, 2C-B, etc) do you think these would be worth trying?

It breaks my heart to think of 5-Methyl-3,4-Methylenedioxy-anything being used on ethylone instead of 5-Me-MDA.

I really have a soft spot in my heart for Methylone, Ethylone & 5-Methylethylone.
They're definitely less intense than MDMA & the benzofurans, but the lesser side effects & milder after effects made them worth it for me.

They lend themselves to hedonistic, non-therapeutic use.
I won't take MDMA at a rave again, I would use bk-MDMA though.
I think in a legal market MDMA use for partys would decrease. It's just too strong for that. I vow to only use it in (semi) therapeutic or romantic settings in the future.

I like 5-APB a lot, maybe even more than MDMA, so I'm not represantative.

5-Me-MDA does sound amazing.