Diagnosed with anxiety but having a hard time getting script benzos

[emkee_reinvented]

Passion Flower is found at any health suppliment store….in a tincture 60ml glass bottle

Passion Flower has a nearly identical MOA as benzodiazepine drugs, being a GABA-A Aganist / PAM , just like Valium, Xanax, Ativan etc …….on an empty stomach take the glass dropper measured to 1ml and maybe take 2-3 X the dose recommended (after a listed small dose on label to see how your body reacts to it.

Passion flower - acts on benzodiazepine receptors subunits a1/a2 & a3 (anxiolytic properties)
Valerian- effective sedative and mild anxiolytic
Kava kava — Calm & Relaxation on bottle

If Canada has the same kinda heaven as the US with OTC supplement s.
In EU, the choice small and products often miss the active substance.
So Valarian extracts all around inactive, but a tincture/ raw, with Valerenic Acid,
a PAM direct partial GABA-a agonist on paper.
Real hard to find and if expensive.

Magnolia Bark extracts also GABA-a agonist.
Or a inhibitor like Lemon Balm/ GABA-t, the enzyme that breaks down GABA.
Passion Flower isn t that also a GABA-t inhibitor ?

Erythrina Mulungu is if you have the right perfect very good all rounder.
Promotes sleep/ anti-anxiety/ anti-seizure and many more action s that are beneficial.

Gabapentin or even better Pregabalin (Lyrica) robust anxiolytic & anticonvulsant properties, used for neurological pain, RLS, anxiety, etc

Pregabalin is used when diagnosed GAD and ime worked like a charm.
Without sedating you or make you a bit dumber like Benzo s.
Only noticed side effect s as: lack in balance and a delay in my reaction time/
being alert.

 

[Señor Moreno]

If Canada has the same kinda heaven as the US with OTC supplement s.
In EU, the choice small and products often miss the active substance.
So Valarian extracts all around inactive, but a tincture/ raw, with Valerenic Acid,
a PAM direct partial GABA-a agonist on paper.
Real hard to find and if expensive.

Magnolia Bark extracts also GABA-a agonist.
Or a inhibitor like Lemon Balm/ GABA-t, the enzyme that breaks down GABA.
Passion Flower isn t that also a GABA-t inhibitor ?

Erythrina Mulungu is if you have the right perfect very good all rounder.
Promotes sleep/ anti-anxiety/ anti-seizure and many more action s that are beneficial.



Pregabalin is used when diagnosed GAD and ime worked like a charm.
Without sedating you or make you a bit dumber like Benzo s.
Only noticed side effect s as: lack in balance and a delay in my reaction time/
being alert.

Pregabalin does indeed work very well for general anxiety, but it's a extrange drug: some patients can take or leave it no problem while others (like me) get bad wds.
I have to use them daily for nerve pain, now I am on 75 mg a day, not Lyrica but a 24 hours release med called Dalingo. It works, but I know that if I quit, I would suffer wds.
Years ago got a small habit, say 150 to 300 mg day, of course much more on ocassions. The habit lasted less than a year and I had a very unconfortable time leaving the stuff. Total insomnia, high bp peaks and a level of anxiety that sometimes reminded me of IV cocaine comedown. It lasted a bit longer than two weeks, maybe twenty days or so

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Pregabalin does indeed work very well for general anxiety, but it's a extrange drug: some patients can take or leave it no problem while others (like me) get bad wds.
I have to use them daily for nerve pain, now I am on 75 mg a day, not Lyrica but a 24 hours release med called Dalingo. It works, but I know that if I quit, I would suffer wds.
Years ago got a small habit, say 150 to 300 mg day, of course much more on ocassions. The habit lasted less than a year and I had a very unconfortable time leaving the stuff. Total insomnia, high bp peaks and a level of anxiety that sometimes reminded me of IV cocaine comedown. It lasted a bit longer than two weeks, maybe twenty days or so

That s the bizarre in my situation, benzo s were restricted.
Meaning dr would prescribe em, but it would cost me as he refused to.
Sign the really need s it, then they would be covered by insurance.

So i just asked for Pregabalin, Lyrica was just released.
And GAD one of the indication s, it was no Benzo, so covered.

Benzo s i never took everyday knowing their addictive and dangerous nature.
On Pregabalin was no real user info, like people mentioning it was addicting for them,
And dr s we know, most of em no shit bout their profession, or keep up with literature.

I took it over a year prescribed 225 mg a day, but as i had a stash.
Probably took 150/ 225 mg a day over a year, sometimes more as i had surplus.
And then stopped somewhere, without knowing it might be addicting.

And experienced no WD s, must admit i was a walking chemical att.
So took Kratom, Mirtazepine and dextro-Amphetamine at the same time.
Just stopped Pregabalin, never experienced a thing but i had still left.
So would i get WD s i could have tapered.
But i felt no WDs, strange as a lot do.

And your dose was not absurd just like mine,
and like you also on occasion took more. Strange drug

edit: Dalingo is if i am correct XR Pregabalin,
which is weird as it felt as IR, come up takes minimal 2 hours.
And felt it acted 24 hours for me, i never noticed it really.
Only the 1-st capsule 75 mg, after that unnoticeable.

 

[Them Witches]

My anxiety has gotten bad this year. If I am not on meds, Every 5-10 mins a huge surge builds inside my body that makes me exhale like I am blowing out a candle. My doctor will not increase my Ativan because he knows it will turn out bad. This year I was put on Zoloft 100mg which has increased to 150mg. It has helped about 60% at 150mg. With me Zoloft daily I will get withdrawal symptoms from it until I take it.

I am on 8 medications that produce withdrawals symptoms and all of them have been long-term. If I do not take all of them exactly on time every day, discomfort starts like a alarm clock going off. I do not have a choice in the matter and it seems I will be on this many medications for the rest of my life.

The bottom half of my heart is deteriorating from having 3 heart disorders & 2 nervous system disorders for the past 15 years. These factors increase anxiety symptoms and emotional issues add to the issue. I have Hypertension II, SVT (supraventricular tachycardia), and bradycardia. Going from a sitting position to standing then walking causes my pulse to jump from 60-70bpm to 160-170bpm which happens all day long. When I sleep my pulse drops into the 40-50bpm range. Immune system drops trigger the bradycardia and it gets scary when I sleep. My brain zaps my heart to keep my pulse up and I get full body jerks or zaps which is called "myoclonus" from my pulse dropping below 30bpm. I know this from wearing a "Holter monitor"

The nervous system disorders are called (A) SNS Dysregulation & Hyperarousal and (B) sympathetic nervous system response.
(A) the fight or flight response is not controlled well and increases anxiety, pulse, sinus, and blood pressure over simple things, anger, anxiety
(B) pain increases pulse, sinus, and blood pressure
-- My doctors say that my brain is wired differently from their other patients. Not many of them get angry and their vitals hit 190/130 Pu 188bpm. Washing the car in the summer time makes my pulse hit the 150-160bpm.

I wanted to share this on the forum because others may have some of these disorders without knowing it and may be a driving force in their anxiety. Chronic pain syndrome causes anxiety.

hydroxyzine pamoate, Clonidine, and beta-blockers are good anxiety tools

 

[4DQSAR]

hydroxyzine pamoate, Clonidine, and beta-blockers are good anxiety tools

For someone who has multiple heart conditions?

All three cause bradycardia, all three are containdicated for people with heart conditions. I'm honestly quite surprised you were prescribed any of these medications but freely admit I am not a doctor and I do not have (or wish to have) your medical records.

I am all too aware that patients who are prescribed many different medications often develop OCD because their entire life is governed by when it's time to take the next pill i.e. it becomes a source of anxiety in and of itself.

FYI I've lived with severe chronic pain for 23+ year after what I will refer to as an accident. I was the sole survivor.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

My anxiety has gotten bad this year. If I am not on meds, Every 5-10 mins a huge surge builds inside my body that makes me exhale like I am blowing out a candle. My doctor will not increase my Ativan because he knows it will turn out bad. This year I was put on Zoloft 100mg which has increased to 150mg. It has helped about 60% at 150mg. With me Zoloft daily I will get withdrawal symptoms from it until I take it.

I am on 8 medications that produce withdrawals symptoms and all of them have been long-term. If I do not take all of them exactly on time every day, discomfort starts like a alarm clock going off. I do not have a choice in the matter and it seems I will be on this many medications for the rest of my life.

The bottom half of my heart is deteriorating from having 3 heart disorders & 2 nervous system disorders for the past 15 years. These factors increase anxiety symptoms and emotional issues add to the issue. I have Hypertension II, SVT (supraventricular tachycardia), and bradycardia. Going from a sitting position to standing then walking causes my pulse to jump from 60-70bpm to 160-170bpm which happens all day long. When I sleep my pulse drops into the 40-50bpm range. Immune system drops trigger the bradycardia and it gets scary when I sleep. My brain zaps my heart to keep my pulse up and I get full body jerks or zaps which is called "myoclonus" from my pulse dropping below 30bpm. I know this from wearing a "Holter monitor"

Reads as serious condition effecting your whole live.
My wounds i got in the years seem too heal slowly naturally.
Never had any use or improvement by something a dr did btw.
But make things worse. Feel for you, i felt like i had lifelong to,
but the body is resistant.

The nervous system disorders are called (A) SNS Dysregulation & Hyperarousal and (B) sympathetic nervous system response.
(A) the fight or flight response is not controlled well and increases anxiety, pulse, sinus, and blood pressure over simple things, anger, anxiety
(B) pain increases pulse, sinus, and blood pressure
-- My doctors say that my brain is wired differently from their other patients. Not many of them get angry and their vitals hit 190/130 Pu 188bpm. Washing the car in the summer time makes my pulse hit the 150-160bpm.

I wanted to share this on the forum because others may have some of these disorders without knowing it and may be a driving force in their anxiety. Chronic pain syndrome causes anxiety.

PNS and SNS, didn t the former temper the latter.
The PNS can be trained, its function is calming down,
the SNS when the danger is gone.
My SNS was definitely infected by stress,
overdrive. But afaik the PNS can trained via the Vagus Nerves,
so lots of Asian things like meditate, QiGong, T'ai Chi help

and i assume my hypothalamus too.
It shrink s when exposed long term to Cortisol,
lucky this part of the brain is good at regenerating.
Acetyl-l-Carnitine or LSD, neuro genesis all the way.

Have you ventured these path s ?

hydroxyzine pamoate, Clonidine, and beta-blockers are good anxiety tools

But dr s are the bottle neck. And i weird enough, 50+ i have
under-pressure: 60 upper 90, and a heartbeat of 100 after a bike ride.
That s on ADHD meds dextro-amphetamine.
My dr did 3 manual and 1 digital cause he couldn t believe the result.
As i was standing active etc.

So the last to meds are a no for me. I would be lying flat on the floor.

 

[Them Witches]

For someone who has multiple heart conditions?

Yes indeed. Clonidine, Vistaril PAM, Lunesta, Roxicodone, Methadone, Ativan, Toprol, Lisinipril, Diltiazem, cyclobenzaprine, and Zoloft. Approved by two MD's and a cardiologist. I have completed a Chemical Stress test, Holter Monitor, EKG, and Echo test. These medications do not hurt or effect my heart. Without them my heart would be much worse from high blood pressure, high & rapid pulse rate, stress, pain, and not sleeping. I have been on Rx opiates/opioids for 38 years now. alpha2, sedative/hypnotics for the past 25 years. I handle the drugs very well and they are very much a part of my life. I just have to take them on time and everything is good.

I do not doubt your degree of pain and duration and I am sorry you live with it. From pain management I have meet many people in pain, all types of cancer, and disorders and I understand it well from degenerative bone disease and Complex regional pain syndrome. I have suffered from chronic migraines and cluster headaches since the age of 7. I was dependent on opiates/opioids since the age of 10.

I do not like being under the thumb of being dependent on some many drugs but it is what it is. I check my vitals every day and keep a medical journal. If I am having serious bradycardia, I manage medications differently and document it.

 

[Them Witches]

Have you ventured these path s ?

I practice meditation and breathing exercises. I have a life coach. I do light exercises. I am unable to be on my feet for every long. Degenerative bone disease crumbled my ankles and has ruined my Achilles tendons and Peroneal tendons. Both ankles are completely fused. I have to get both of my heels shaved. Ortho said my knees will need surgery within a few years depending on how much I am on my feet.

 

[Them Witches]

I do not have (or wish to have) your medical records.

You would need a dump truck to carry them all. Without the meds I take, my blood pressure and pulse would be so high. It is weird having bradycardia and SVT at the same time. It messes with energy levels.

 

[4DQSAR]

I manage medications differently and document it.

Indeed, take back control.

Just kind of shocked that the sheer number and variety. Two different opioids it unusual. But if it works for you, fine.

BTW don't know where you are but I've been informed by multiple sufferers of chronic severe pain that levorphanol (Levo-dromoran) was, to them, the most effective medication. Like methadone it has a long duration of action and like methadone, it has NMDA antagonist activity that may enable it to manage pain 'classic' opioids do not.

But I'm also aware that Levo-Dromoran is only prescribable in the US and the fact that only 4.5kg of it is produced each year tells you just how few people are prescribed it. I calculate only 2-4 people. I expect almost no doctor had ever prescribed it which can be good or bad. I asked for and was given a REALLY odd analgesic that was only prescribed in the UK and yes it is a potent as morphine BUT it's a stimulant. How rare? When I got the first box, it was dusty. I suspect the doctor had no idea but the BNF said 'non opioid' so they were as curious as me.

Who knows, maybe Levo-Dromoran is like that? If you have HEARD of it and your doctor hasn't, they also may be curious.

 

[Dextro .45]

If Canada has the same kinda heaven as the US with OTC supplement s.
In EU, the choice small and products often miss the active substance.
So Valarian extracts all around inactive, but a tincture/ raw, with Valerenic Acid,
a PAM direct partial GABA-a agonist on paper.
Real hard to find and if expensive.

Magnolia Bark extracts also GABA-a agonist.
Or a inhibitor like Lemon Balm/ GABA-t, the enzyme that breaks down GABA.
Passion Flower isn t that also a GABA-t inhibitor ?

Erythrina Mulungu is if you have the right perfect very good all rounder.
Promotes sleep/ anti-anxiety/ anti-seizure and many more action s that are beneficial.



Pregabalin is used when diagnosed GAD and ime worked like a charm.
Without sedating you or make you a bit dumber like Benzo s.
Only noticed side effect s as: lack in balance and a delay in my reaction time/
being alert.

Only Passion Flower tinctures have a MOA as Benzo’s , GABA PAM’s …..proper quality, highest amount of mg per 50ml glass bottle dropper

Valerian has a different MOA but still a potent sedative with anxiolytic properties in proper dose

Clonidine 0.1mg would be the ultimate non habit forming anxiolytic & sedative, rapid acting 30min onset and could easily convert a 200+ raging man like he’s on meth, 3 tablets pulverized into powder, hot water, glass with mixed drink, he’d be the calmest chill guy

Works wayyy faster then oral Valium, Xanax, etc

 

[Deleted member 585202]

Just reading this gives me anxiety.
Don't get me wrong, those aren't bad suggestions. But they don't work if boredom is one of the causes for your anxiety.

Boredom as a cause of anxiety is contradictory... that's depression or you just wanting to get high.

Either way, if you aren't willing to consider natural factors like diet and exercise as effective treatments for anxiety, then you have a lot to learn... about a lot of things.

 

[Them Witches]

Clonidine 0.1mg would be the ultimate non habit forming anxiolytic & sedative, rapid acting 30min onset and could easily convert a 200+ raging man like he’s on meth, 3 tablets pulverized into powder, hot water, glass with mixed drink, he’d be the calmest chill guy

I have the Clonidine 0.3mg IR tablets. They are strong and Clonidine at 0.6mg-0.9mg daily cause intense withdrawals. Your right about it working like a sedative for people that do not take it regularly.

Two different opioids it unusua

I am in the US. It is common practice to have 2 different opioids. It has been like this for over 15 years for me. One as a main and one for breakthrough pain. It has taken over 15 years to build up the Rx's I have.

There are cash pay pain clinics over here that charge $1000 per visit and the doctor writes Roxicodone 30mg 6 tabs in the morning, 5 tabs in afternoon, and 4 tabs before bed. And it is not for cancer pain which bothers me a great deal. Taking Roxicodone that way is dangerous and reckless for the patient.

 

[gymguy30]

Hey everyone.

As you can probably tell from my handle, I’m in Canada. Was diagnosed with anxiety 5 or so years ago. And since then it’s been near impossible to get a dr to prescribe me any type of benzo. I feel like I could definitely benefit from them. I don’t like clonazepam as it’s too strong for me and turns me into a zombie. I had a one month script of lorazepam recently but that was from hitting the hospital and I wasn’t given any refills. And Ativan/lorazepam barely works for me. The amount I have to take to notice anything is 4-6 mg at once. So I found diazepam and nitrazepam to work best for me.

Is there a specific type of Dr i should be looking for?

And yes im an addict and I put down street drugs a while back so there is a possibility I might be flagged in the system as an addict. I don’t want to seem like im drug seeking (even though I guess I partially am)- but for medical reasons to have a better quality of life. My anxiety is crippling at times and I have the odd panic attack here and there. It’s tough because I know my pharmaceuticals and when you go into a dr with the attitude like knowing what you need they tend to view it as drug seeking.

It would be heaven to be able to get a script of diazepam as thats what’s worked for me in the past. I have coverage and all that but my only road to getting any real pharma benzos has been to order overseas. I would be grateful if anybody could help me out with how to approach this.

Thanks

You’re best best is to go here https://data.cms.gov/tools/medicare-part-d-prescriber-look-up-tool . After first looking up several different doctors in your area near you or doctors you’re interested in. After you find some docs then you can go on the website I linked and type in the doctors name and state and it will pull up all the meds they have prescribed and in what amounts. That shows what drugs they like to prescribe and how heavily they prescribe them etc. imo I’d look on there and go to whatever doc near me prescribes a good amount of the drug I’d like to be prescribed. It’s very simple and a very useful tool trust me. I’ve found my last two docs using this and several other people have as well.

 

[gymguy30]

I agree.
In addition to the dependency issue, benzodiazepines always increase anxiety in the long run.

Avoid 'em.

I honestly wholeheartedly disagree. Benzoss have saved me on numerous occasions. For years. 10+ years I’ve been prescribed them.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I practice meditation and breathing exercises. I have a life coach. I do light exercises. I am unable to be on my feet for every long. Degenerative bone disease crumbled my ankles and has ruined my Achilles tendons and Peroneal tendons. Both ankles are completely fused. I have to get both of my heels shaved. Ortho said my knees will need surgery within a few years depending on how much I am on my feet.

Read "Degenerative bone disease crumbled my ankles,
and has ruined my Achilles tendons and Peroneal tendons"

You must be in tough circumstances, compared to what i can imagine.
But a active involvement by training that what can be done respect.
I thought i was sentenced for life after they damaged my arm Tendons.
[In the hospital/ restrained by 3 guys during seizure/ Ictal Psychosis].
My brain is still damaged from it. But the body heals faster apparently.

But i am hyper-mobile, so they damaged am big time.
After 6 years DIY training i can gladly say they are hurt,
but true self training, meditating/ breathing played a big role too.

I can now do 20 Push-Ups, before i could 3 session s of 100.
Who cares it heals, slowly but sturdy. Sent you my love, eMKee.

 

[Them Witches]

Read "Degenerative bone disease crumbled my ankles,
and has ruined my Achilles tendons and Peroneal tendons"

You must be in tough circumstances, compared to what i can imagine.
But a active involvement by training that what can be done respect.
I thought i was sentenced for life after they damaged my arm Tendons.
[In the hospital/ restrained by 3 guys during seizure/ Ictal Psychosis].
My brain is still damaged from it. But the body heals faster apparently.

But i am hyper-mobile, so they damaged am big time.
After 6 years DIY training i can gladly say they are hurt,
but true self training, meditating/ breathing played a big role too.

I can now do 20 Push-Ups, before i could 3 session s of 100.
Who cares it heals, slowly but sturdy. Sent you my love, eMKee.

Thanks for the positive wishing and thoughts. The same in return to you in your life.

I do not like being disabled. It has ruined my life and my career I invested decades of training to be a 1st Class Pipe fitter and pipe welder. I was making close to $100K per year on government bases, full benefits, a nice home, and able to provide for my daughter extensively. Life is short and we face the path of time. I know the stronger the tide the harder I have to swim and have to be good at floating when needed.

Something I have noticed in life is friends and family stop hanging around those that have disabilities, cancer, illnesses, etc. I have seen it with everyone I know. Only a few people end up being around people in their final stages of life, these people are special and contain God's love for humanity. These people are the people that are sent back to help people transition days before death. They are light workers, spirit guides, and watchers, treasured by the almighty.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Thanks for the positive wishing and thoughts. The same in return to you in your life.

I do not like being disabled. It has ruined my life and my career I invested decades of training to be a 1st Class Pipe fitter and pipe welder. I was making close to $100K per year on government bases, full benefits, a nice home, and able to provide for my daughter extensively. Life is short and we face the path of time. I know the stronger the tide the harder I have to swim and have to be good at floating when needed.

It seems the brain has a hard-time adjusting to disability s. like it refuses acceptance.
Maybe it has a function, to survive keep going. But you are not 100% disabled, your body is damaged. Not you. In my case my personality changed. 5 Seizures.

But i am still around.

Something I have noticed in life is friends and family stop hanging around those that have disabilities, cancer, illnesses, etc. I have seen it with everyone I know. Only a few people end up being around people in their final stages of life, these people are special and contain God's love for humanity. These people are the people that are sent back to help people transition days before death. They are light workers, spirit guides, and watchers, treasured by the almighty.

Yeah it the fool proof way to separate the friend s from goat s easy,
when you get sick. Lost all my friend s too. They where not friend s of-course.
But fakes, Wastemen that don t even deserve you. But its sadly true.

You mean people that are volunteer s like in Hospices,
where people spend there last days ?
I rank the people doing this also real high, also considered doing it.

As i am officially disabled, which is bullshit. But pays the bill s.
When you get caught in the web of that system, hard to get out.
So i am basically free, but not actually disabled. Damaged.

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

Hey everyone.

As you can probably tell from my handle, I’m in Canada. Was diagnosed with anxiety 5 or so years ago. And since then it’s been near impossible to get a dr to prescribe me any type of benzo. I feel like I could definitely benefit from them. I don’t like clonazepam as it’s too strong for me and turns me into a zombie. I had a one month script of lorazepam recently but that was from hitting the hospital and I wasn’t given any refills. And Ativan/lorazepam barely works for me. The amount I have to take to notice anything is 4-6 mg at once. So I found diazepam and nitrazepam to work best for me.

Is there a specific type of Dr i should be looking for?

And yes im an addict and I put down street drugs a while back so there is a possibility I might be flagged in the system as an addict. I don’t want to seem like im drug seeking (even though I guess I partially am)- but for medical reasons to have a better quality of life. My anxiety is crippling at times and I have the odd panic attack here and there. It’s tough because I know my pharmaceuticals and when you go into a dr with the attitude like knowing what you need they tend to view it as drug seeking.

It would be heaven to be able to get a script of diazepam as thats what’s worked for me in the past. I have coverage and all that but my only road to getting any real pharma benzos has been to order overseas. I would be grateful if anybody could help me out with how to approach this.

Thanks

If you want benzos, tbh, I'd look up drs in your area on google reviews or similar and go for ones with the LOWEST ratings. Esp. with any reviews saying the doctor didn't give them any time/just gave them pills rather than helping/didn't really listen etc. 'Cause those are the drs likely to just throw something like a Xanax [which is what you need] script at you.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

You mean people that are volunteer s like in Hospices,
where people spend there last days ?
I rank the people doing this also real high, also considered doing it.

As i am officially disabled, which is bullshit. But pays the bill s.
When you get caught in the web of that system, hard to get out.
So i am basically free, but not actually disabled. Damaged.

Probably you need government paper called a 'Confirmation of Good Behaviour'.
Well i can forget that, so volunteering, wonder if that is a option.
But its certainly a thing that is afaik good, and learnful,
helping people there last days. Integer profession.

With three false notices at the cops, they don t check these if its true or not.
No evidence needed, but it does become fact after its written down.
I can disprove em all 3, but 2 were done my ex. Meaning she get a fine.
And probably put my kids in state care, which equals hell most f the times,
if your kid doesn t simply disappear.

Catch 22, Puppet-master s. You again fucked shit up.
Throw away free capitol, me. Letting me do nothing and paying me.
While retarded work in municipality, landlord company s all their sub contractor s,
any government related organisation, The Cops.
Except 'Veilig Thuis' [SaveHome/ for kid s] the only 1 that didn t see the killer in me,
All the rest of child-care experts did, on assumption .

And then also the whole medical field. In NL is subpar, stuck in the 19-th century.
Useless except Pharmacy s, which were under-payed, and worked hard anyway.

The only 2 things that function in NL, them and the postal service, also under-payed !
So maybe some insight to why i consider NL white shite or Dutch trash. Unacceptable.