Discussion Vaping 7-OH wtf is this

[Helpmeescapethis]

What are the chances that some of this "super strong" 7-OH is a nitrazene? Maybe they should be checked with those test strips. It goes to show how much I trust these random vendors. I mean the same named product with different levels of effects. From one person telling me it was weak and another saying they nodded slept for hours. It is the vendor and street situation of 2025 that has made me think caution is needed. Not the ingenuity of science. I love the whole RC topic and find fascinating. What don't like is a greedy vendor that does not care what you ingest.

I've no doubt there is legit 7-OH. But no doubt there is shenanegans going on too. Like mushroom chocolates. Tell me I am taking a synthetic tryptamine and all is good. Although with mushrooms becoming legal it sounds better. But we need more truth. And we need to top BL people that are in the know to call stuff out. Like @4DQSAR has already started to do.

Coming from a nearly daily user of nitazenes…
Very low. Nitazene production is all but stopped, and has been for a little while now. And it never reached fentanyl levels of pervasiveness, even in 2019-2021 when they were becoming “popular”.

“Legit” 7-OH has a potency of like 10x morphine, a binding affinity of 14x-22x morphine.

It’s more likely that most people use shitty 7-OH, and then are shocked by the potency of quality 7-OH. It is miles away from kratom, with withdrawals that are worse than street heroin and street fentanyl. It is not to be trifled with.

 

[JackARoe]

It’s more likely that most people use shitty 7-OH, and then are shocked by the potency of quality 7-OH. It is miles away from kratom, with withdrawals that are worse than street heroin and street fentanyl. It is not to be trifled with.

Well as someone that is tapering down plain powder I am not screwing with it. I read about some bad side effects, but a few people here speculated it could be impurities. The effect seem to differ.

Thanks for the confirmation. Good to know 7-OH is miles away from kratom.

 

[4DQSAR]

“Legit” 7-OH has a potency of like 10x morphine, a binding affinity of 14x-22x morphine.

It’s more likely that most people use shitty 7-OH, and then are shocked by the potency of quality 7-OH. It is miles away from kratom, with withdrawals that are worse than street heroin and street fentanyl. It is not to be trifled with.

That's interesting. But did you test your 'legit' 7-OH?

Sci-Hub : {title} [{doi}]

Because that does not sound like 7-OH or even Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl really.

Never forget that affinity ≠ effacacy.

While the EC50 is often a more useful metric, I still don't think it's able to test if a ligand is a partial agonist, agonist or superagonist.

What you describe sounds a lot more like tianeptine or, possibly, a homologue (I did link to a patent in which the affinity & EC50 values for hundreds of homologues are given).

Tianeptine and to a less freakly extent tapentadol appear to be compounds with quite low affinity values but are superagonists. I can't be sure but I even found an article in the BMJ in which a clinician explained their method for the detoxification of people dependent on tapentadol. They don't say if methadone, buprenorphine or indeed anything else had been tried but their method was to lower the daily dose by 10% per week and use what they termed 'see-sawing' in which the patient alternates between two doses. I don't know the rationale for that - possibly just psychological on the basis that someone can put up with being ill for 6 hours if they can look forward to feeling OK for six hours.

Certainly I lack enough detail to come to any firm conclusions but the paper asserts that 7-OH is a partial agonist and your own figures sort of suggest that.

Because it was both fascinating and terrible to read of people discovering tianeptine and singing it's praises quickly dissolving into 'this stuff produces rapid tolerance/dependence and a truly awful withdrawal'.

I mean, I don't think Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl is well enough explored but it could be your product contained that. Yesterday I posted a link to a new synthesis of 7-OH which used Oxone and I noted the yield was 55% but did not know what the impurities were. Both rely on the oxidation of mitragynine but it seems MP undergoes a rearrangement and I can well believe someone would figure out a way to optimize for potency rather than purity. If the impurity has an EC50 31 times lower than the stated active... would you remove it? I mean, the paper explains how zinc triflate is used to rearrange 7-OH to MP so someone might have purposefully made it.

Grisham's law.

If two vendors offer what they claim to be the same product but one, in truth, is misrepresented the product and in fact is selling something MORE potent (so a little goes a long way), if the market accepts it, the liar makes a lot more money.

It strikes me that everyone and their cat is now in the 7-OH business so I assume prices are dropping and/or claimed purity is going up and in spite of that, profit margins are getting smaller and smaller, the liar wins.

THAT is the problem with 7-OH. I do not believe for a moment that the traces in the plant are being extracted, it's being synthesized. Of course every vendor will lie or just not mention the source because a synthetic drug most certainly IS subject to legal controls.

But this IS all guesswork - trying to work out how to relate what I've read in

 

[Helpmeescapethis]

That's interesting. But did you test your 'legit' 7-OH?

Sci-Hub : {title} [{doi}]

Because that does not sound like 7-OH or even Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl really.

Never forget that affinity ≠ effacacy.

While the EC50 is often a more useful metric, I still don't think it's able to test if a ligand is a partial agonist, agonist or superagonist.

What you describe sounds a lot more like tianeptine or, possibly, a homologue (I did link to a patent in which the affinity & EC50 values for hundreds of homologues are given).

Tianeptine and to a less freakly extent tapentadol appear to be compounds with quite low affinity values but are superagonists. I can't be sure but I even found an article in the BMJ in which a clinician explained their method for the detoxification of people dependent on tapentadol. They don't say if methadone, buprenorphine or indeed anything else had been tried but their method was to lower the daily dose by 10% per week and use what they termed 'see-sawing' in which the patient alternates between two doses. I don't know the rationale for that - possibly just psychological on the basis that someone can put up with being ill for 6 hours if they can look forward to feeling OK for six hours.

Certainly I lack enough detail to come to any firm conclusions but the paper asserts that 7-OH is a partial agonist and your own figures sort of suggest that.

Because it was both fascinating and terrible to read of people discovering tianeptine and singing it's praises quickly dissolving into 'this stuff produces rapid tolerance/dependence and a truly awful withdrawal'.

I mean, I don't think Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl is well enough explored but it could be your product contained that. Yesterday I posted a link to a new synthesis of 7-OH which used Oxone and I noted the yield was 55% but did not know what the impurities were. Both rely on the oxidation of mitragynine but it seems MP undergoes a rearrangement and I can well believe someone would figure out a way to optimize for potency rather than purity. If the impurity has an EC50 31 times lower than the stated active... would you remove it? I mean, the paper explains how zinc triflate is used to rearrange 7-OH to MP so someone might have purposefully made it.

Grisham's law.

If two vendors offer what they claim to be the same product but one, in truth, is misrepresented the product and in fact is selling something MORE potent (so a little goes a long way), if the market accepts it, the liar makes a lot more money.

It strikes me that everyone and their cat is now in the 7-OH business so I assume prices are dropping and/or claimed purity is going up and in spite of that, profit margins are getting smaller and smaller, the liar wins.

THAT is the problem with 7-OH. I do not believe for a moment that the traces in the plant are being extracted, it's being synthesized. Of course every vendor will lie or just not mention the source because a synthetic drug most certainly IS subject to legal controls.

But this IS all guesswork - trying to work out how to relate what I've read in

I don’t do 7-OH, it wouldn’t touch me. I’m a filthy nitazene addict.

I know affinity isn’t the same efficacy, that’s why I mentioned potency (as a painkiller when compared to morphine).

I’ll have to find where I read these figures, but my point still stands. 7-OH shouldn’t be treated like kratom. Also, you’re correct about most of it being synthed. Extraction doesn’t yield enough, and I know from my one of my friends speaking with labs, at least one has/is doing it.

 

[JackARoe]

That's interesting. But did you test your 'legit' 7-OH?

That's what I am saying! You started this 4Q. Are the drugs we have actually what they are suppose to be. I think it for sure pays to be suspicious. If your read BL there has been misrepresentation in every angle of drug sales. Fake benzos, fake heroin, fake (or contaminated) dissociatives, fake mushroom chocolates (although great idea just be truthful), fake amanita chocolates, etc..... I remember going into the EADD forum and reading on clear net benzo vendors for years. Nice operations for people who needed benzos. Now even some of them have nitrazenes and that is getting hit now too.

I can name a few people here at BL (but I won't) that I would trust true 7-OH from if they said it was. Some vendor selling as "roxies" does not care what you ingest, and the whole range of effects from this have me scratching my head. It could very well be different qualities.

I don’t do 7-OH, it wouldn’t touch me. I’m a filthy nitazene addict.

Again thanks for the posts the last week. Very enlightening. Not much info on nitrazenes so I bow to your knowledge. If not being produced anymore I wonder if they will be a flash in the pan. Or around in 50 years.

 

[Deleted member 585202]

It is miles away from kratom, with withdrawals that are worse than street heroin and street fentanyl. It is not to be trifled with.

Overall its definitely not worse than heroin. I mean, a very high dose 7oh withdrawal could be worse than a low dose heroin withdrawal, sure. But overall, no.

However, certain symptoms of psuedoindoxyl withdrawals are worse than heroin for sure. The agitation & full body RLS of pseudo withdrawal is fucking unreal. Seriously. I actually feel psychosis coming on. It gives me nightmares just remembering it.

It's worse than 7oh withdrawal, which is bad enough on it's own.

I'm actually curious by what mechanism this occurs, because the high from pseudo isn't all that different from 7oh. It's distinct, but not enough for me to understand why the withdrawals are so much worse.

The other weird thing about these alkaloids is how the RLS is really bad in the arms for me. Most opioids give it to me in mainly in the legs. These alkaloids give it to me in my whole body, but its the worst in the arms.

 

[Deleted member 585202]

It’s more likely that most people use shitty 7-OH, and then are shocked by the potency of quality 7-OH.

Yeah, the quality difference between brands and vendors is huge. Plus dosing consistency issues is a problem.

If you buy 15mg pills, a lot of them are extremely underdosed and might only have 2 or 3mg.

On the other hand, 7oh is the only drug I've seen where independent GC/MS testing that sometimes comes back higher purity than what the vendor advertises.

For example, the powder I just bought was advertised as 83% purity, but someone sent some to an independent lab and it came back as 87% pure. I checked other batches from that vendor and 2 other ones it was the same, tested a few percentage points higher than advertised.

Which is kinda weird ... even if it was just a hot spot, I wouldn't imagine such a big discrepancy in relatively pure powder.

 

[4DQSAR]

@JackARoe - yep, tianeptine was also being sold in the US as 'gas station heroin;. It may be banned in some states - heck it might be banned everywhere but an on-line vendor won't care.

I mean maybe 100% IS x10 morphine, I wouldn't know. But 15-18mg seems to be the usual tablet content so clearly not x10 moprhine and the data shows it to be less potent than morphine. Yeah - I've read the pure stuff can have a nasty AWS but who knows?

Anyone else think the orange gimp doesn't care about addiction - he just want's US addicts to use US-made deugs?

Because how 7-OH isn't banned yet is a mystery to me. It was banned in the UK a decade ago after those deaths.

 

[JackARoe]

@JackARoe - yep, tianeptine was also being sold in the US as 'gas station heroin;. It may be banned in some states - heck it might be banned everywhere but an on-line vendor won't care.

I mean maybe 100% IS x10 morphine, I wouldn't know. But 15-18mg seems to be the usual tablet content so clearly not x10 moprhine and the data shows it to be less potent than morphine. Yeah - I've read the pure stuff can have a nasty AWS but who knows?

Because how 7-OH isn't banned yet is a mystery to me. It was banned in the UK a decade ago after those deaths.

Well, if this were 1985 all of this stuff would be illegal and declared a narcotic. The US is sort of the wild West today, with about five or six other substances in front of this that should probably be banned first yet have been continued sales for years.

Kratom has the AKA that consists of some former politicians that go state the state and have enacted some protection laws. But as we see. 7-oh is not Kratom. So they will have to get around that somehow. There’s a lot of momentum to keep it legal in the US that is not as strong and other parts of the world.

 

[Deleted member 585202]

Well, if this were 1985 all of this stuff would be illegal and declared a narcotic. The US is sort of the wild West today, with about five or six other substances in front of this that should probably be banned first yet have been continued sales for years.

Our drug laws are quite weird. Its strange what gets banned and what doesn't. Its not very consistent.

Kratom has the AKA that consists of some former politicians that go state the state and have enacted some protection laws. But as we see. 7-oh is not Kratom. So they will have to get around that somehow. There’s a lot of momentum to keep it legal in the US that is not as strong and other parts of the world.

I think 7oh needs to be regulated.

 

[JackARoe]

I think 7oh needs to be regulated.

Well, I tend to not think anything should be regulated. But in this case, I think you’re right, humans have shown to be pretty stupid. lol

I do notice the AKA addressing this now. They were doing so good going state to state and enacting the protection services.

 

[4DQSAR]

I keep saying this but there are dozens of scaffold (not specific compounds - entire scaffolds) that are uncontrolled. Now the problem is that someone would need to invest to find the good ones - but anyone with that amount of money can affort to then have it made in multi-tonne batches!

It will always make financial sense to make the most potent but shortest acting drug - fentanyl is the tip of the iceburg. In fact, there is a class that's legal but the final step is identical to that used in the production of fentanyl... and how long has it taken for that scaffold to be banned.

If the Mexicans had it, we would already be seeing it. In fact, it's quite likely that they will since now they can order the immediate precursor from China and do the same last step... I can only suggest fentanyl precursors are still so cheap and so easily available that they haven't bothered (YET).

 

[Deleted member 585202]

Well, I tend to not think anything should be regulated. But in this case, I think you’re right, humans have shown to be pretty stupid. lol

It's really these asshole companies that need to chill out. Vape shop brands are being irresponsible. Buying on clear net is one thing, but selling in brick and mortar is another.

Pills used to be 15mg, then they all had to one up each other so we started seeing 18mg, then 21mg, and now 30mg. Thats a ridiculous dose. Without tolerance, 5mg will put an opioid naive person on their ass. And the companies labeling them as "perks"...

Labeling a legal potent opioid that is sold in vape shops after a drug that sparked the epidemic and killed hundreds of thousands of people is only going to end up one way.

There's no longevity in that. They're going to ruin it for everyone. This country and our politicians are still hypersensitive to the dangers of opioids. Honestly I'm surprised I haven't seen more negative media coverage on it yet.

 

[4DQSAR]

There's no longevity in that. They're going to ruin it for everyone. This country and our politicians are still hypersensitive to the dangers of opioids. Honestly I'm surprised I haven't seen more negative media coverage on it yet.

Who ultimately owns the production? I say this as someone who worked for an RC comany and it ended up with every other vendor buying off us - because we had good designs, knew how to get them made cheaply and could order in bulk, we... well I won't say 'won' but the guy who owned it moved into the UK vape market. The last thing I ever did for him was to find the price of bulk nicotine - $50/Kg. So he bought tonnes of it.

So whatever brand of vape you buy, the top of the money pyramid is 1 person.

I would guess someone bought a tonne of mitragynine and offers it to people who want to make 7-OH. I mean, the key thing is we made it easy. They could just call, pay with a bank transfer and we packaged it up and sent it the same day. THAT is something I learnt. Most people are lazy so if someone could try to find a Chinese supplier, import, do the extraction OR call a number - which you you think people choose? Also bulk buying meant we were cheaper than the Chinese!

 

[JackARoe]

I would not be surprised to hear 7-OH gets banned, either a full out ban or an over 18 ban. And the AKA says they support the FDA in this instance even if only in that people may start referring to 7-OH as kratom and cause some confusion. I mean we have had several posters say 7-OH is a different level. For me if I want to go that high I would reach for morphine. But this is what I got.:



The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has just issued warning letters to companies marketing products containing 7-Hydroxymitragynine (7-OH), a semi-synthetic compound not naturally present in significant quantities in the kratom plant. You can read the full FDA announcement here:

FDA Press Release

As anyone who has followed the American Kratom Association's (AKA) activities for the last decade can attest, the AKA has repeatedly quarreled with and challenged the FDA; especially telling the FDA to appropriately regulate the marketplace and follow the science. Therefore the American Kratom Association strongly supports the FDA’s action here.

The AKA firmly believes that kratom consumers should not be misled into thinking they are purchasing a natural kratom product or a product that makes impermissible health claims.

The AKA continues to advocate for product transparency, consumer safety, and science-based regulation. Products marketed as kratom must have a proven safety profile and should reflect the natural alkaloid content of the kratom plant.

As always, thank you for standing with us to protect safe and legal access to kratom.

 

[Esperighanto]

vendor selling a product called "be careful bars", which are pressed xanax bars containing 3mg bromazolam, 8mg 7oh, and 10mg promethazine

This is a wild ratio, either the Bromazolam is way too high or the person who thought this was a good idea has an insane tolerance. Most people can body about 60-80mg of promethazine, and 30-50mg of 7-OH at the upper threshold of what they could take without getting adverse effects. If you've ever played with pure bromazolam on no tolerance though, you'll know that taking any more than 2mg per dose for your average person is generally unwise, because with benzos I've found you should always assume that the relaxation causes them to redose, and really it's somebody with no tolerance exceeding 4mg that I'd be worried about.

0.5/10/12.5 would've been a wiser ratio of bromazolam/7-OH/promethazine imo, personally.

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

What are the chances that some of this "super strong" 7-OH is a nitrazene? Maybe they should be checked with those test strips. It goes to show how much I trust these random vendors. I mean the same named product with different levels of effects. From one person telling me it was weak and another saying they nodded slept for hours. It is the vendor and street situation of 2025 that has made me think caution is needed. Not the ingenuity of science. I love the whole RC topic and find fascinating. What don't like is a greedy vendor that does not care what you ingest.

I've no doubt there is legit 7-OH. But no doubt there is shenanegans going on too. Like mushroom chocolates. Tell me I am taking a synthetic tryptamine and all is good. Although with mushrooms becoming legal it sounds better. But we need more truth. And we need to top BL people that are in the know to call stuff out. Like @4DQSAR has already started to do.

Roughly 0 I would say? Than again I do remember some RC's had some amphetamine in them (from an incomplete synthesis if I understood right).

But the profit margin has to be insane here I could say buy a gram of it for idk 150ish? (no clue) than sell every 100 mgs for about 20 at a shop --

that's like 2k off a 150 dollar investment. Have to be real unstable to break the law to stretch that a LITTLE BIT further. Not saying it is impossible but right around the area of cutting your meth with fent to make it addictive -- actually way more crazy because you are already breaking the law selling meth...

I always agree with getting everything tested as often as possible though and haven't heard of "Super 7 oh" so maybe I missed somethin here

 

[notsmokeymcpot42088]

Who ultimately owns the production? I say this as someone who worked for an RC comany and it ended up with every other vendor buying off us - because we had good designs, knew how to get them made cheaply and could order in bulk, we... well I won't say 'won' but the guy who owned it moved into the UK vape market. The last thing I ever did for him was to find the price of bulk nicotine - $50/Kg. So he bought tonnes of it.

So whatever brand of vape you buy, the top of the money pyramid is 1 person.

I would guess someone bought a tonne of mitragynine and offers it to people who want to make 7-OH. I mean, the key thing is we made it easy. They could just call, pay with a bank transfer and we packaged it up and sent it the same day. THAT is something I learnt. Most people are lazy so if someone could try to find a Chinese supplier, import, do the extraction OR call a number - which you you think people choose? Also bulk buying meant we were cheaper than the Chinese!

May I have a lifetime supply I am sick of paying 16 bucks for some bathtub nicotine juice! jk of course --- No way it all comes from that one guy! (although I can not cite a single time you have been wrong thus far) I have to say this one reeks of what I call a "Mom lie" --- In my case it was "My brother was the first person to bring pot to the suburbss of Detroit - everyone was getting it from him in one way or another"

I will say since the one vendor I trusted skated I have not had good luck and it was rumored that place supplied all the other places..... Hmmm this one is a thinker!

The AKA (that is a good acronym for them) So they are against 7-oh as it is not natural? I would put that in the common knowledge category? A poppy pod is not heroin would be a similar argument?

 

[4DQSAR]

May I have a lifetime supply I am sick of paying 16 bucks for some bathtub nicotine juice! jk of course --- No way it all comes from that one guy! (although I can not cite a single time you have been wrong thus far) I have to say this one reeks of what I call a "Mom lie" --- In my case it was "My brother was the first person to bring pot to the suburbss of Detroit - everyone was getting it from him in one way or another"

I will say since the one vendor I trusted skated I have not had good luck and it was rumored that place supplied all the other places..... Hmmm this one is a thinker!

The AKA (that is a good acronym for them) So they are against 7-oh as it is not natural? I would put that in the common knowledge category? A poppy pod is not heroin would be a similar argument?

Oh - I daresay that the guy got out of nicotine vapes at or at very least close to the peak. He just sold off the entire RC division to some shady people who scammed thousands of people. There model was to just straight up steal. So I guess on the upside they didn't poison anyone because they didn't send out the orders.

Another friend noted that one feature/bug of certain fungi is that they will tend to accumulate some chemicals within their mycelium. The friend joked that if they put MIPT into the grown media, some species would biotransform it into 4-OH MIPT. It's not my field but it's more than likely an expert could figure out the best species, media, 'magic fertilizer' and so on.

The Agaricus morphinum could be 'discovered', added to the taxonomy of fungi, studied, be the subject of journal articles, tasted, tested and ultimatly be sold as a delicacy. I hope you see what I'm driving at here.

 

[JackARoe]

Because how 7-OH isn't banned yet is a mystery to me. It was banned in the UK a decade ago after those deaths.

Well you were not far off. This morning Mr RFK Jr and the FDA docs got together and I believe now they are handing this off to the DEA. Oddly enough the FDA docs did their own plain kratom leaf tests some time back and found it safe. So regular leaf is ok, the synthetic manipulation of the contents will become illegal, or at least some kind of ban. Either fully illegal or over 18. These things take time, probably 6 months to a year from now we won't see the 7-OH pills.

I have no opinions, I think everything should be legal. I just get annoyed at stupid marketing (roxies) that does not have longevity in its goal and I really get annoyed at vendors misrepresenting things. But I think this stuff should remain legal even if I never even sample it. (I'm sick of opioids you all, I need some time off all of them!!) But I am sure that the FDA is ok with plain leaf pisses off the pharm companies to no end.

This is from the AKA:

Earlier today, Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., FDA Commissioner Dr. Marty Makary, and senior government officials announced a recommendation to classify synthetic 7-Hydroxymitragynine (7-OH) products as Schedule I substances under the federal Controlled Substances Act. Read official announcement.

The American Kratom Association (AKA) applauds this bold, science-driven action as a critical milestone in protecting public health and consumer safety. These dangerous, chemically altered 7-OH products are not natural kratom. They are manipulated substances with potent opioid-like effects, misleadingly sold under the kratom name, and they threaten both consumers and the reputation of natural kratom.

“Secretary Kennedy and Commissioner Makary have shown exceptional leadership in confronting one of the most urgent public health threats related to mislabeled, manipulated psychoactive substances,” said Mac Haddow, Senior Fellow on Public Policy for the American Kratom Association. “These 7-OH products are not kratom. They are chemically altered substances that carry potent opioid-like effects and pose an imminent threat to consumers. This move sends a clear and long-overdue message: the safety of the American public comes first.”

“The FDA’s own research shows that natural kratom has a relatively low potential for abuse and may offer harm-reduction benefits when used responsibly,” Haddow continued. “It is the synthetic manipulation of 7-OH that has created the danger. The action by Secretary Kennedy and Commissioner Makary is not only scientifically justified, it is morally imperative.”

The AKA urges swift action by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) to initiate the rule-making process to schedule synthetically manipulated 7-hydroxymitragynine and to make clear that such action does not impact the legal status of natural kratom or its primary alkaloids, mitragynine and unaltered 7-OH occurring within the plant matrix. The goal is to eliminate the threat posed by rogue products while preserving access to safe, regulated kratom.

“We look forward to working with federal agencies and state policymakers to ensure that safe access to natural kratom is protected, while these dangerous imposters are removed from the marketplace” said Haddow.