Tryptamines Any reason to believe that Kratom would be dangerous to mix with 5-Meo-Mipt or 5-Meo-Dipt?

[SuperPsych]

Question is in the title. I recently acquired some 5-Meo-Dipt which I've been curious about since I was 15 or 16. Never thought I'd get to try it. I also recently got some NB 5-Meo-Mipt which I want to play around with. I'm currently dependent on Kratom so I take it every time I do a psychedelic but I've mainly been sticking with 2C-B and 4-HO-MET lately. Has anyone combined Kratom with a 5-Meo tryptamine? Is there reason to be concerned or is the danger of 5-Meo tryptamines overstated?

 

[Didgital]

This is a great question. Some of the alkaloids in kratom I believe act on serotonin receptors as agonists/antagonists so there may be some concern about serotonin syndrome.

All that said, I have a friend who uses close to 40g a day and he still takes Foxy and regular DIPT with no problems.

I'm not sure anyone can tell you it's inherently safe, but I think the risk is pretty low.

 

[SuperPsych]

This is a great question. Some of the alkaloids in kratom I believe act on serotonin receptors as agonists/antagonists so there may be some concern about serotonin syndrome.

All that said, I have a friend who uses close to 40g a day and he still takes Foxy and regular DIPT with no problems.

I'm not sure anyone can tell you it's inherently safe, but I think the risk is pretty low.

Thanks for the response! That's basically what I was looking for. I'm currently on 26g or so a day, hopefully I'll be on a lower dose by the time I get to trying Foxy, though the NB 5-Meo-mipt has been calling my name. I've done Kratom with MDMA before and was fine, though I know it has a different MoA than the 5-MeO tryptamines. I did the NB 5-MeO-Mipt with Buprenorphine before but the opioid action isn't what worries me, it's the effects on Serotonin as you've mentioned.

 

[Didgital]

Yeah I think if you do choose to combine these, it would be prudent to lower the dosage for both materials so you can get a feeling of how you'll react. I think kratom chemistry is pretty complex on it's own, but I've yet to hear of anyone having a bad interaction and i speak with dozens of individual kratom users daily. That said, there are so many alkaloids in the plant that it's hard to know exactly what is going to happen pharmacologically. There have been many cases of kratom interacting with other drugs that have lead to bad times and even deaths I believe.

I haven't read in depth but this paper may contain some information https://journals.lww.com/ccmjournal...erotonin_syndrome_due_to_kratom_and.1286.aspx

I forget off the top of my head which alkaloids hit serotonin receptors, but I will say this. I think it would be less risky to use either pure mitragynine or 7-oh-mitragynine vs the plant. AFAIK neither of those alkaloids are interacting with serotonin receptors. If you're just trying to stave off withdrawal effects that might be your best option.

Also while you'll probably get more firsthand reports here, your post may* get more pharmacological specific responses in the Pharmacology and Neuroscience focus forum. Let me know if you'd like me to move it there after some time.

 

[Quasimoto]

I have experienced psychosis from combining kratom with psychedelics. I generally would not recommend it. However, I was taking very high doses at the time, around 30g per day.

They don't interact very nicely IMO. Increases anxiety and abnormal thoughts while tripping, especially if you are dependent and don't get much opioid effect from the kratom.

Ever since that psychosis, I now have permanent involuntary musical imagery when taking kratom alkaloids. Nothing disabling, just annoying.

If you do combine them, try to space them out by several hours minimum, and take less kratom than you usually would.

I should note that I combined them probably two dozen times without much issue before that psychosis occurred. But ever since then, I no longer combine them for obvious reason.

I forget off the top of my head which alkaloids hit serotonin rereceptors

I think they all do to some degree, but speciogynine in particular has potent action iirc.

"Surprisingly, speciogynine (2) portrayed a high affinity toward 5-HT1ARs and 5-HT2BRs, in contrast with its major diastereomer, mitragynine"

 

[Didgital]

I think they all do to some degree

Actually I think you may be right. Mitragynine apparently interacts with them as well I wasn't even aware. The plane as a whole IME is pretty all over the place from a pharmacological perspective. I think they've identified 59 different indole alkaloids in the plant?

 

[chippermonk]

Also, and a little off topic, don't some of the psychoactive alkaloids in kratom have a bit of a long half life? Could that interact with whatever drug you take the next day? I know I don't seem to wake up the next morning with a kratom hangover, it's more likely to show up later in the day.

 

[SuperPsych]

Yeah I think if you do choose to combine these, it would be prudent to lower the dosage for both materials so you can get a feeling of how you'll react. I think kratom chemistry is pretty complex on it's own, but I've yet to hear of anyone having a bad interaction and i speak with dozens of individual kratom users daily. That said, there are so many alkaloids in the plant that it's hard to know exactly what is going to happen pharmacologically. There have been many cases of kratom interacting with other drugs that have lead to bad times and even deaths I believe.

I haven't read in depth but this paper may contain some information https://journals.lww.com/ccmjournal...erotonin_syndrome_due_to_kratom_and.1286.aspx

I forget off the top of my head which alkaloids hit serotonin receptors, but I will say this. I think it would be less risky to use either pure mitragynine or 7-oh-mitragynine vs the plant. AFAIK neither of those alkaloids are interacting with serotonin receptors. If you're just trying to stave off withdrawal effects that might be your best option.

Also while you'll probably get more firsthand reports here, your post may* get more pharmacological specific responses in the Pharmacology and Neuroscience focus forum. Let me know if you'd like me to move it there after some time.

I had never thought about using the pure alkaloids for this purpose to avoid withdrawal. That's a good idea, but I think that I'll just stick with the psychedelics with safer safety profiles until I'm off of kratom. Today is day 2 of my taper. It's going to be a long taper but maybe
the idea of being able to use the 5-Meo tryptamines will work as some motivation. I very well may be physically safe taking them together, but I don't want to spend the first half of the trip worrying about if things will go bad, which knowing me is exactly what I'd do.Not knowing if what you just took is dangerous is not conducive to a good set and setting. I greatly appreciate the thoughtful and thorough reply

I have experienced psychosis from combining kratom with psychedelics. I generally would not recommend it. However, I was taking very high doses at the time, around 30g per day.

They don't interact very nicely IMO. Increases anxiety and abnormal thoughts while tripping, especially if you are dependent and don't get much opioid effect from the kratom.

Ever since that psychosis, I now have permanent involuntary musical imagery when taking kratom alkaloids. Nothing disabling, just annoying.

If you do combine them, try to space them out by several hours minimum, and take less kratom than you usually would.

I should note that I combined them probably two dozen times without much issue before that psychosis occurred. But ever since then, I no longer combine them for obvious reason.


I think they all do to some degree, but speciogynine in particular has potent action iirc.

"Surprisingly, speciogynine (2) portrayed a high affinity toward 5-HT1ARs and 5-HT2BRs, in contrast with its major diastereomer, mitragynine"

That sounds pretty rough. Do you remember the dosage of the psychedelic and what psychedelic that you took? I've been on a similar dosage of kratom for quite a while and never had anything resembling that with psychedelics, although I usually do dose on the lower side with psychedelics. Only issue I've had combining them is kratom slightly altering the headspace after I take a dose. I will usually take the psychedelic a couple of hours after my last kratom dose and usually don't take another until closer to the come down when I feel withdrawal creeping in

 

[Quasimoto]

That sounds pretty rough. Do you remember the dosage of the psychedelic and what psychedelic that you took? I've been on a similar dosage of kratom for quite a while and never had anything resembling that with psychedelics, although I usually do dose on the lower side with psychedelics. Only issue I've had combining them is kratom slightly altering the headspace after I take a dose. I will usually take the psychedelic a couple of hours after my last kratom dose and usually don't take another until closer to the come down when I feel withdrawal creeping in

I wasn't taking large doses, but was using fairly frequently around once per week (mushrooms, LSD, DMT). I don't really recall the specifics.

My psychosis was mild/moderate. No significant behavioral changes or major delusion. My experience was consistent with the medical literature of kratom induced psychosis and mainly consisted of alienated thoughts, mild OEV visual hallucinations (extreme HPPD), extreme CEVs, memory loss, unusual memories, etc.

A lot of people aren't aware that kratom itself can cause psychosis, but generally only in high doses.

The issue was it lasted for several months, because I did not realize that the kratom was exacerbating it. When I finally realized the kratom was causing it to continue, I stopped, and the symptoms resolved very quickly. It seemed to be a kratom induced psychosis triggered by psychedelics, not vice versa. I have tripped dozens of times with high doses since then with zero issue, however kratom still gives me issues to this day.

 

[Doris Pringle-Brule]

For me, kratom extracts feel serotonergic at some points in the experience. I think any adverse combo effects would be temporary but I would never combine 5-MeO's with anything except cannabis. I can't back that up with any logic just a personal bias of some sort. Side note - I got yearly blood work the morning after a 3-day kratom extract bender and everything was in the normal range.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Isnt Kratom pretty benign besides it has many different actions.
And is 5-Meo-DIPT not more of concern, its in my cupboard for 16/22 years ?

Not that i would assumming i be sure to have lots of Benzos, not Kratom.
Kratom ok, for the next day.

Though it seems to combine with some Tryptamines. 5-Meo-DIPT is weird.
Its not sweet like 4-HO-MIPT about the only i could tolerate eventually.

 

[Doris Pringle-Brule]

4-HO-MiPT is nicknamed "Peter Rabbit" in my circles. Unintentionally, it does seem to match coincidentally like tamer shrooms tho. Smoky stole a lawn Peter Rabbit type ornament on miprocin then she named it that lol.

 

[izo]

There shouldnt be any problem combining kratom with serotonergic psychedelics. Tried it some times and found it to be ok. Tryptamines especially and opioids are a great Combo but kratom does Not deliverso much in this regard compared to other opioids despite it being a nice opioid in itself. So no Problem combining it but other opioids are better for it.

 

[Esperighanto]

I've mixed foxy with kratom before and it seems to potentiate it a little bit and make the kratom feel even more stimulating somehow but I enjoy it. Usually 1.5-4g of leaf (possibly adding up to 30mg of 7-OH-Mitragynine) with 12-18mg of foxy.

 

[JackARoe]

I have to read this thread closer. As I am on daily kratom about 25 gr a day of plain powder. I totally avoided ayahuasca these last years due to not know how harmala would work along with kratom. I know we have talked about it before and that some people actually like kratom with their ayahuasca. Other say they got a headache but who knows.

The serotonin receptors as agonists/antagonists of kratom sort of confuses me. I know some people use kratom to sleep. I never get that same effects on serotonin receptors as say ephedrine or yohimbe from kratom. But I still avoided using kratom with harmala.

However I did not know kratom could be an issue with anything 5-MEO-XXX. I mean it seems from the thread it is ok. But yeah if any psychedelic is dangerous with kratom we should know. The psychedelics I have combined kratom with are mescaline, LSD, mushrooms, 2C-B, 4-ACO-DMT, 4-ACO-DET, 2C-D, DPT,DMT. All have been fine. Having been interested (since 1998 when I logged onto Dextroverse) I almost tried DXM. Never did and I understand kratom and DXM together could be an issue possibly. Not sure but glad someone posted that it could.

It is pretty funny when I was on kratom and used powdered cactus. A few times. T&W the kratom. Eat half a bagel. An hour later T&W the cactus powder and eat the other half of the bagel. Have a few tokes and an hour and a half later I am off the the races. That is a lot of powder but no nausea at all anytime I did that. I am working to get off kratom but so many duties keep me going. One of those duties brought me around a lot of morphine recently and because of kratom I had no cravings. So it works for now to keep me honest. But want to know about any mixes that could be dangerous.

I know we have a dangerous combination thread and if we need to we can add things that are confirmed.

 

[Esperighanto]

I have to read this thread closer. As I am on daily kratom about 25 gr a day of plain powder. I totally avoided ayahuasca these last years due to not know how harmala would work along with kratom. I know we have talked about it before and that some people actually like kratom with their ayahuasca. Other say they got a headache but who knows.

The serotonin receptors as agonists/antagonists of kratom sort of confuses me. I know some people use kratom to sleep. I never get that same effects on serotonin receptors as say ephedrine or yohimbe from kratom. But I still avoided using kratom with harmala.

However I did not know kratom could be an issue with anything 5-MEO-XXX. I mean it seems from the thread it is ok. But yeah if any psychedelic is dangerous with kratom we should know. The psychedelics I have combined kratom with are mescaline, LSD, mushrooms, 4-ACO-DMT, 4-ACO-DET, 2C-DPT, DMT. All have been fine. Having been interested (since 1998 when I logged onto Dextroverse) I almost tried DXM. Never did and I understand kratom and DXM together could be an issue possibly. Not sure but glad someone posted that it could.

It is pretty funny when I was on kratom and used powdered cactus. A few times. T&W the kratom. Eat half a bagel. An hour later T&W the cactus powder and eat the other half of the bagel. Have a few tokes and an hour and a half later I am off the the races. That is a lot of powder but no nausea at all anytime I did that. I am working to get off kratom but so many duties keep me going. One of those duties brought me around a lot of morphine recently and because of kratom I had no cravings. So it works for now to keep me honest. But want to know about any mixes that could be dangerous.

I know we have a dangerous combination thread and if we need to we can add things that are confirmed.

NGL I've mixed 10-15g of kratom over a few doses separated by ~2 hours while on a multi day ayahuasca bender and it was pretty nice. LSA and Kanna don't mix that shit with though, mad dangerous.

 

[JackARoe]

NGL I've mixed 10-15g of kratom over a few doses separated by ~2 hours while on a multi day ayahuasca bender and it was pretty nice. LSA and Kanna don't mix that shit with though, mad dangerous.

So LSA and Kanna is a bad mix? Kanna itself can be dangerous if mixed with certain substances I think. I am not sure if it is serotonin syndrome or another mechanism but have heard it should not be mixed with certain things. But would love to know the full scoop on that!

I remember years ago the diet restrictions that were to go along with harmalas and ayahuasca. Then Johnathon Ott wrote in his books that he ate cheese sandwiches and drank beer after also ingesting harmalas. Then the notion of a reversable MAOI not being as dangerous as say a non reversable came about. So it seems all of a sudden the diet restrictions that people were told to adhere to with harmalas are no longer as prudent. At least I think.

I would still treat harmalas as something to be aware of, and of what can be mixed with it.

 

[SuperPsych]

However I did not know kratom could be an issue with anything 5-MEO-XXX. I mean it seems from the thread it is ok. But yeah if any psychedelic is dangerous with kratom we should know. The psychedelics I have combined kratom with are mescaline, LSD, mushrooms, 4-ACO-DMT, 4-ACO-DET, 2C-DPT, DMT. All have been fine. Having been interested (since 1998 when I logged onto Dextroverse) I almost tried DXM. Never did and I understand kratom and DXM together could be an issue possibly. Not sure but glad someone posted that it could.

I know we have a dangerous combination thread and if we need to we can add things that are confirmed.

I agree that it's important to know if there are any dangerous psychedelics to mix with kratom. I've mixed it with a number of 4-substitutted tryptamines, 2CB, LSD and MDMA. I've also mixed it with O-PCE, 2f-DCK, DMXE, Ketamine, 3-HO-PCP with no issue as well as Methamphetamine. I haven't mixed it with with DXM but I've read reports of it potentiating the DXM pretty strongly.

Did mix Kratom with Propylhexedrine and 3-MeO-PCP and almost had a seizure, but I had been up for a couple of days and was malnourished. Had to drink a ton of alcohol to prevent myself from seizing. My ex also had a seizure shortly after taking Kratom while in benzo withdrawal and she nearly died. I've heard of people having seizures mixing Wellbutrin with Kratom as well.

 

[JackARoe]

My ex also had a seizure shortly after taking Kratom while in benzo withdrawal and she nearly died. I've heard of people having seizures mixing Wellbutrin with Kratom as well.

That is good to know too. Scary, glad she is ok. From reading a lot of BL'ers are in benzo withdrawal is some way. I also have heard of seizures from Wellbutrin even without some mixes.

It does seem kratom is benign for the most part. Not as benign as cannabis though.

After you quoted my post I had some letters missing and fixed it. Want to keep this informative.

 

[SuperPsych]

That is good to know too. Scary, glad she is ok. From reading a lot of BL'ers are in benzo withdrawal is some way. I also have heard of seizures from Wellbutrin even without some mixes.

It does seem kratom is benign for the most part. Not as benign as cannabis though.

After you quoted my post I had some letters missing and fixed it. Want to keep this informative.

I've heard plenty of speculation of Kratom lowering the seizure threshold which I firmly believe through my own experiences as well as what I've read of others. I definitely wouldn't take kratom while in Benzo or Alcohol withdrawal. I wouldn't take it with Wellbutrin or Trammadol or anything else that lowers the seizure threshold. Even when I've accidentally taken too high of a dose of only Kratom it's given me a physical feeling similar to benzo withdrawal where it feels like you're on the edge of a seizure. Kratom does seem fairly benign for the most part, short of the addiction issues and possible lowering of the seizure threshold.