Stimulants Racemic vs dextroamphetamine for therapeutic purposes?

[JohnBoy2000]

Anyone well informed on the benefits of one versus the other?

I understand dextroamphetamine is cleaner and less anxiety inducing, gives a cleaner more cognitively pleasing increase in neural firing?

I would be using either at 20 mg or less (probably less, closer to 5 or 10 if they work as intended), for therapeutic purposes exclusively, definitely not looking to "get high".

All other RX meds have kind of stopped working, mirtazapine, SSRI's, NRI's, benzo's do nothing for me.

Ritalin works a little but doesn't quite cut it.

So, dextro or racemic, is there much of a difference between the two?

 

[negrogesic]

Never had euro racemic amphetamine, closest is adderall, which is 1 parts l-amp and 3 parts d-amp, (25:75) versus racemic being 2:2 (50:50). There is now a new med called Evekeo which is 50:50, aka pharmaceutical speed pills. Havent tried those.

But from my extensive experience with d-amp and adderall, they are clearly different and have different clinical applications. Adderall is better for ADHD patients that need a kick in their pants to start their day, whereas dextroamphetamine is better for those that are naturally motivated, but have trouble concentrating. Unlike l-meth, l-amp still retains substantial dopaminergic activity (while being definitely more adrenergic than d-amp). So adderall is more physically stimulanting essentially, but had harsher side-effects.

Never tried speed (racemic amphetamine), but I imagine it to be quite physically stimulating, good for cleaning, but some rough edges)

 

[someguyontheinternet]

How does dexamphetamine compare to clonidine for focus/concentration?

 

[tryptakid]

Never had euro racemic amphetamine, closest is adderall, which is 1 parts l-amp and 3 parts d-amp, (25:75) versus racemic being 2:2 (50:50). There is now a new med called Evekeo which is 50:50, aka pharmaceutical speed pills. Havent tried those.

But from my extensive experience with d-amp and adderall, they are clearly different and have different clinical applications. Adderall is better for ADHD patients that need a kick in their pants to start their day, whereas dextroamphetamine is better for those that are naturally motivated, but have trouble concentrating. Unlike l-meth, l-amp still retains substantial dopaminergic activity (while being definitely more adrenergic than d-amp). So adderall is more physically stimulanting essentially, but had harsher side-effects.

Never tried speed (racemic amphetamine), but I imagine it to be quite physically stimulating, good for cleaning, but some rough edges)

This is a really good description of the difference.

I'm naturally very motivated, however I struggle with organizing and channeling. I get lost in all the things I could be doing, so I tend to start many projects and struggle to complete them.

I find adderall to be unpleasant and forceful, while dexedrine is super helpful. Methamphetamine can also be very helpful for me (therapeutic dosing of 5-10mg oral/sl) as it's much less stimulating and motivation enhancing.

My preferred dosing regiment for myself is 10mg dexedrine xr, 5-10mg methamphetamine on working days, and then 5mg of methamphetamine on weekends, 10mg if I have a busy day or a late night.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

This is a really good description of the difference.

I'm naturally very motivated, however I struggle with organizing and channeling. I get lost in all the things I could be doing, so I tend to start many projects and struggle to complete them.

I find adderall to be unpleasant and forceful, while dexedrine is super helpful. Methamphetamine can also be very helpful for me (therapeutic dosing of 5-10mg oral/sl) as it's much less stimulating and motivation enhancing.

My preferred dosing regiment for myself is 10mg dexedrine xr, 5-10mg methamphetamine on working days, and then 5mg of methamphetamine on weekends, 10mg if I have a busy day or a late night.

Would I be correct in assuming you're using clinical doses of non-pharma grade meth?

i.e. not desoxyn?

I've read of those who require it but being unable to attain an RX doing that.

Given how it's synthesized (not in a pharma grade lab, using questionable chemicals), seems a little risk compliant, but I guess if that's what's necessary and it works?

There's no way I'd ever get a script for desoxyn, so that may be the route I require at some point also; I'm surprised with some users doing this, there's not more lab test reports available.

.........

At the moment I'm unsure what transmitter specifically I'm responsive to or gets me up and moving, dopamine or noradrenaline.

I tried a combo of mirtazapine with reboxetine (a pure NRI) and it did NOTHING for me, but ritalin dose give me a mood lift and therefore helps focus my mind and get me productive for a couple hours.

Maybe it will be a question of simply trialling dextroamphetamine versus racemic, though dextro is far more difficult and expensive to acquire.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Never had euro racemic amphetamine, closest is adderall, which is 1 parts l-amp and 3 parts d-amp, (25:75) versus racemic being 2:2 (50:50). There is now a new med called Evekeo which is 50:50, aka pharmaceutical speed pills. Havent tried those.

But from my extensive experience with d-amp and adderall, they are clearly different and have different clinical applications. Adderall is better for ADHD patients that need a kick in their pants to start their day, whereas dextroamphetamine is better for those that are naturally motivated, but have trouble concentrating. Unlike l-meth, l-amp still retains substantial dopaminergic activity (while being definitely more adrenergic than d-amp). So adderall is more physically stimulanting essentially, but had harsher side-effects.

Never tried speed (racemic amphetamine), but I imagine it to be quite physically stimulating, good for cleaning, but some rough edges)

Does meth come in l-meth and d-meth formulations?

Or just racemic?

In terms of "motivated" versus "unmotivated" ADHD patients, does that basically mean those who suffer from fatigue or lethargy associated with their condition? The DA component presumably assists with cognitive focus, but doesn't give an actual energy lift?

Comparing that to ritalin, is that known to give an energy lift as with adderall or racemic amphetamine?

As above, I'm unsure if I myself would benefit more from the adderall/racemic mix, or pure dextro-amph.

 

[tryptakid]

Would I be correct in assuming you're using clinical doses of non-pharma grade meth?

i.e. not desoxyn?

No, I have a good relationship with my prescriber which I have built up over many years. He allows me to alternate prescriptions between desoxyn and dexedrine, which I will store up extras and supplement as needed. Since I don't take the maximum dose of either most days, I"m able to manage an adequate supply month after month of each.

I've read of those who require it but being unable to attain an RX doing that.

Given how it's synthesized (not in a pharma grade lab, using questionable chemicals), seems a little risk compliant, but I guess if that's what's necessary and it works?

I will say that I've also done this - at present, most DEA analysis of methamphetamine indicates upwards of 95% pure dextromethamphetamine being produced at the wholesale level. Making a volumetric solution using a 10 spray/ml sprayer, dissolving 50-60mg/ml of illicit meth into a mixture of distilled water and everclear would yield you roughly 5mg/spray for oral use (allowing for a small variation due to purity of product, weight of the salt, etc.)

There's no way I'd ever get a script for desoxyn, so that may be the route I require at some point also; I'm surprised with some users doing this, there's not more lab test reports available.

It's feasible, I just talked with my psychiatrist and noted a study which indicated that the monoamine release of serotonin and dopamine in meth may be more beneficial to the type of dysfunction I have dealt with. I also note that dextro can make me slightly 'over-stimulated' at adequate therapeutic doses and can leave me feeling hyper-fixated which isn't always conducive to the work I do. 20mg XR dexedrine is what I have found to be the closest in efficacy using just dextroamphetamine, but the side effects can be somewhat unpleasant.

.........

At the moment I'm unsure what transmitter specifically I'm responsive to or gets me up and moving, dopamine or noradrenaline.

I tried a combo of mirtazapine with reboxetine (a pure NRI) and it did NOTHING for me, but ritalin dose give me a mood lift and therefore helps focus my mind and get me productive for a couple hours.

I find methylphenidate to make me want to do something, but unsatisfied by doing it. The euphoria can be a bit too much of a peak/crash for me also.

Maybe it will be a question of simply trialling dextroamphetamine versus racemic, though dextro is far more difficult and expensive to acquire.

 

[negrogesic]

I tried desoxyn for a month and requested to be switched back to dexedrine. Desoxyn is of course enantiomerically pure dextromethamphetamine. Was not a fan.

I'm of the variety that needs a kick in the pants, so i generally prefer adderall, but I periodically I'll switch back to dexedrine when I get sick of the added side-effects that adderall brings (then eventually I'll miss the kick that adderall has and switch back, and so on).

But desoxyn is not a medication I'd ever want to switch back to. Although of course while I was inherently excited to try the famed desoxyn (one of the rarest Rx's around), i found it quite disappointing at therapeutic doses. It has even less kick than dexedrine, and is highly cerebral in action, lacking the push I need. I remember hiding my excitement and playing dumb when my psychiatrist first wrote the script, but at therapeutic doses, like say 25mg, it is too subtle, not substantially physically stimulating, and frankly made me feel sort of sad. I remember a certain coldness it had to it, a sense of sadness (I'm talking about at its peak effects). I vividly a case taking 30mg or so and going on a hike, and when i got to a certain vantage point of the city below, I looked down and felt sort of sad, and slightly dissociated. Such low doses (like 10-30mg) of meth kind of remind me of the feeling of the comedown from a higher dose of meth (and to a degree, the two probably have parallels with respect to blood levels). So perhaps, having abused meth recreational a number of times prior, I associated the feeling of low dose meth with the feeling of coming down from a recreational dose. Anyway, was very much disappointed, particularly given the hyped-up drug lore it embodies.

Granted, I can get alot of work done on meth, but I need supratherapeutic doses (like qt minimum 60mg+) to get that push to get moving, which is A) beyond the dose a physician would ever prescribe and B) a dose that is beginning to enter the overtly neurotoxic range.

 

[Quasimoto]

Does meth come in l-meth and d-meth formulations?

technically, yes, but L-methamphetamine is not psychoactive. It's prescribed as a cold medicine and sold over the counter, it only acts on the periphery but doesn't get you high.

Only d-meth gets you high.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

technically, yes, but L-methamphetamine is not psychoactive. It's prescribed as a cold medicine and sold over the counter, it only acts on the periphery but doesn't get you high.

Only d-meth gets you high.

So, when one says, "I used meth" what they're saying is, "I used d-meth", by default?

That manufactured in illicit labs, is it a mix of l and d meth, or just so happens the outcome of synthesis is d-meth?

 

[JohnBoy2000]

For my purposes I'm really not looking to "get high" at all.

20 mg ritalin gives me a moderate improvement in mood, energy, ability, motivation, "get up and go".

I'm basically looking to improve on that.

D-meth seems to act almost equally on serotonin, noradrenaline and dopamine, according to the pharma-d description on wikipedia?

Where dextro-amphetamine seems to target dopamine more exclusively?

As it seems I have little response to noradrenaline increase (by way of reboxetine + mirtazapine combo) apart from feeling jittery, agitated and slightly panicked, perhaps something more DA specific may be better?

But that's just a guess.

 

[shreddedlettuce]

The Title to this thread is "Racemic vs dextroamphetamine for therapeutic purposes?

So first off I haven't mentioned Racemic, as Adderall isn't available here, so hope this post helps with the other part of your OP.

So IME, this is how it worked for me.

Lisdexamfetamine (Vyvanse) takes top prize - even at low doses (30mg) once a day for me for the last six months and I still claim it is top drawer.

dextro-amphetamine (Amfexa) 2nd place -10mg twice a day - I only used this when there are shortages of Vyvanse.
While many of you might feel lucky to be prescribed IR dextro-amphetamine, I was wishing Vyvanse would be available ASAP instead.

dextro-amphetamine works well, but the desire to try control the release over a 12 hour period has led me into that "getting high" frame of mind, which goes against the "therapeutic purposes" and ultimately defeats the purpose of ADHD control IME.

Taking it as a booster to Vyvanse if needed at prescribed doses could be beneficial to certain patients. It does work, but wears off pretty quickly once one is used to Vyvanse. ( The need to redose for me was like every 3 hours .... hence the riskiness of this form of stimulant for me)

Ritalin didn't work for me (Was on it for 20 years..... and once Vyvanse became available in my country I was so surprised as to its effectivness and lack of desire to redose.


Remember, you mentioned "for therapeutic purpose" - so I suggest getting more info from a medical professional as to what therapy is best for you.

Hope this helps.

SL

 

[Dextro .45]

Would I be correct in assuming you're using clinical doses of non-pharma grade meth?

i.e. not desoxyn?

I've read of those who require it but being unable to attain an RX doing that.

Given how it's synthesized (not in a pharma grade lab, using questionable chemicals), seems a little risk compliant, but I guess if that's what's necessary and it works?

There's no way I'd ever get a script for desoxyn, so that may be the route I require at some point also; I'm surprised with some users doing this, there's not more lab test reports available.

.........

At the moment I'm unsure what transmitter specifically I'm responsive to or gets me up and moving, dopamine or noradrenaline.

I tried a combo of mirtazapine with reboxetine (a pure NRI) and it did NOTHING for me, but ritalin dose give me a mood lift and therefore helps focus my mind and get me productive for a couple hours.

Maybe it will be a question of simply trialling dextroamphetamine versus racemic, though dextro is far more difficult and expensive to acquire.

I absolutely love Ritalin (Methylphenidate) for its pleasant mood-boosting & euphoric effects. Too bad it's sooo short acting 3-4h max so I need to redose often. My mo ths script is gone in a week.

...a combo of Dexedrine IR & Adderall XR would be best I'd imagine

I would need 200mg of Ritalin daily to be honest.....so clean & pleasurable.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Anyone well informed on the benefits of one versus the other?

I understand dextroamphetamine is cleaner and less anxiety inducing, gives a cleaner more cognitively pleasing increase in neural firing?

I would be using either at 20 mg or less (probably less, closer to 5 or 10 if they work as intended), for therapeutic purposes exclusively, definitely not looking to "get high".

All other RX meds have kind of stopped working, mirtazapine, SSRI's, NRI's, benzo's do nothing for me.

Ritalin works a little but doesn't quite cut it.

So, dextro or racemic, is there much of a difference between the two?

there is a thread on imo they are not alike d- works, dl- wouldn t.

But its irrelevant as Pharma dosed equivalent pill s, is not like comparing Speed to 5 MG dex pills. I have no idea, dl- is way more euphoric, wakening and pushy. Hard crash, but that could be do to overdueing it.

There is no Pharma dl-, i ll bail out,
dl- is more bodily for sure for me.