Miscellaneous Potential psychological harms of psychedelics, and why I will never try them!

[pupnik]

@Neuroprotection
sorry I have been off the board for a few days, but I think I get where you are at, and why you feel strongly about "seeing" that psychedelics are being "promoted" for ptsd and depression.

My views are based upon what I have learned about associative memory formation and how our perceptive reflexes emerge in the changing context like a tuningfork chiming familiarity out of our aggregate memory of experiences.

Your appreciation of coffee and nicotine which are stimulants help you in your familiarity with spaces and situations, to the degree that you are equal with all people situations you encounter. These substances permit rapid confirmation of familiar vibrations and other sensory cues. Psychedelics, however make things more strange. Not so strange that they are unnatural, for while waking from a dream, for a minute or so you are in a profound psychedelic state, and while the space around you may not seem familiar, the state of coming out of a dream is familiar to you.

Many of the terms used such as ego loss, entities, and the mumbo jumbo that some frequent trippers keep muttering about feeling vibes or going with the flow etc. are cultural artifacts, people attempting to join in with the familiar cadres of other stoned people who may actually struggle to relax and stay open to the moment while being distracted by dream like changes in their stream of consciousness. For a tripper, the effort to be a better tripper, can actually change their personality. For a non-tripper the effort to avoid unfamiliar mental experiences can change their personality as well, especially if they have become frightened by an unfortunate combination of situations and dosage.

For a person such as yourself, a friend or guide for 8 hours will provide enough of a grounding so that you can explore something strange and fulfilling (at least as fulfilling as dreams are) or you could try a short duration psychedelic to experience something strange for 10 minutes and no more (eg smoked dmt)

 

[perpetualdawn]

Thank you for that, that was really helpful. i’m aware that many psychedelics can be stimulating which complicates things as you rightly said. But how about comparing something like amphetamine or cocaine with psychedelics in terms of there impacts on aspects of consciousness like alternative ideas, feelings of connectedness ETC.
The reason I asked these questions is because I’ve heard a few people describing rewarding drugs like stimulants as antispiritual/anti-consciousness. sorry to repeat myself, but I noticed that when I use nicotine chronically, I feel like my thoughts become much less deep and my consciousness is slightly changed in a weird way I struggle to explain. The best way I can describe it is. that whilst I still feel negative emotions as normal, they just don’t get to me. I also feel that I can live in the moment much more and I become preoccupied with rewards, while simultaneously being able to push through boring hard work.
Apologies if I’m confusing you, I’m probably confusing myself as well

The effects you describe of nicotine: "still feel negative emotions without them getting to you, more preoccupied with rewards and being able to push through boring hard work" is really similar to mild doses of stimulants like phenmetrazine and amphetamine, or even caffeine. In the old days everywhere people were getting shit done in offices, laboratories, and so on were chain smoking and pounding coffee! Nowadays it's just the coffee - we've really rejected nicotine in modern society because of the health risks of smoking (and I think rightly so!) but no one really talks about how nicotine might have played a role in helping push forward a lot of intelligent work that has been done in the past.

I wouldn't label nicotine as antispiritual per se. To me personally I think spiritual/unspiritual is all in the context. And keep in mind that in many native american cultures, tobacco was (and still is) used as a sacrament. I understand that it's something to do with connecting the earth with the sky via smoke, and the psychoactive experience of smoking can be a very grounding feeling if you aren't addicted. That's about enough of me speaking about a culture I'm not really part of.

Back to your question: Psychedelics tend to amplify the aspects of alternative ideas. Feelings of connectedness can really vary, sometimes really amplifying them, but sometimes you can have the opposite and really trip out on disconnectedness. If you ever encounter a drunk when you're tripping, they can seem like a different species.

Which reminds me, if you're looking for a lens to understand psychedelics as opposite of another substance-modulated experience, to me alcohol would be it. It's not a perfect opposite, but in many ways psychedelics and alcohol have really opposite natures. Alcohol is myopic, psychedelics are far-sighted. Alcohol blurs the edges and fine details in things, psychedelics sharpen them. Alcohol feels good at first and then you pay for it later. Psychedelics you pay for up front, feel good later. Alcohol lowers you, Psychedelics raise you. Alcohol reduces the rate or volume of information entering your experience, Psychedelics increase it. And so on...

 

[Skorpio]

I think opiates and stimulants are actually pretty similar in some ways. Both produce a throurough euphoria by increasing dopamine transmission in the VTA. Stimulants do it globally, but opioids do it locally (via disinhibition of GABAergic receptors). Other associated feelings (ie stimulation or sedation will vary), but both can produce a focused sense of well-being (if doses aren't pushed too high for the other elements of the high to become prominent).

Im not sure I'd call the psychadelic state the opposite of either of those states. It is fundamentally different, rather than the inverse, in my experience. Of course a lot of this is colored by whatever metaphors we use to interpret our world.

 

[Neuroprotection]

The effects you describe of nicotine: "still feel negative emotions without them getting to you, more preoccupied with rewards and being able to push through boring hard work" is really similar to mild doses of stimulants like phenmetrazine and amphetamine, or even caffeine. In the old days everywhere people were getting shit done in offices, laboratories, and so on were chain smoking and pounding coffee! Nowadays it's just the coffee - we've really rejected nicotine in modern society because of the health risks of smoking (and I think rightly so!) but no one really talks about how nicotine might have played a role in helping push forward a lot of intelligent work that has been done in the past.

I wouldn't label nicotine as antispiritual per se. To me personally I think spiritual/unspiritual is all in the context. And keep in mind that in many native american cultures, tobacco was (and still is) used as a sacrament. I understand that it's something to do with connecting the earth with the sky via smoke, and the psychoactive experience of smoking can be a very grounding feeling if you aren't addicted. That's about enough of me speaking about a culture I'm not really part of.

Back to your question: Psychedelics tend to amplify the aspects of alternative ideas. Feelings of connectedness can really vary, sometimes really amplifying them, but sometimes you can have the opposite and really trip out on disconnectedness. If you ever encounter a drunk when you're tripping, they can seem like a different species.

Which reminds me, if you're looking for a lens to understand psychedelics as opposite of another substance-modulated experience, to me alcohol would be it. It's not a perfect opposite, but in many ways psychedelics and alcohol have really opposite natures. Alcohol is myopic, psychedelics are far-sighted. Alcohol blurs the edges and fine details in things, psychedelics sharpen them. Alcohol feels good at first and then you pay for it later. Psychedelics you pay for up front, feel good later. Alcohol lowers you, Psychedelics raise you. Alcohol reduces the rate or volume of information entering your experience, Psychedelics increase it. And so on...

I really enjoyed that description and you’ve put a lot of things in perspective for me.
Your description of nicotine sounds very accurate. I would say nicotine, feels qualitatively different from caffeine in that, it feels much milder as a peripheral stimulant but it has much more dramatic effects in helping me to get through work.
I could be completely wrong because I’m speaking as an inexperienced drug user. however, I can never explain why I had a gut instinct that nicotine from all forms including fresh tobacco gives me synthetic chemical vibes. I don’t mean this in a bad way, but from the first time I tried it as a teenager, The whole experience ranging from the taste of the nicotine to the euphoria it gave me felt some how synthetic and disconnected from nature. On the other hand, caffeine has always felt more natural and I can’t really explain why. I like nicotine much better though because of the positive effects it has on me with chronic use.
I found the idea of nicotine in Native American culture really interesting. if I remember correctly, it played a role as a very important stimulant for tribal nighttime watchmen as it could sharpen their senses making it easier to manage the threat of attack by wild animals or enemy tribes. I think some Sharmans also used it in psychedelic mixtures, perhaps as a stimulating component or to sharpen the senses and promote clarity of the psychedelic experience.

 

[bluecollartweeker]

All psychadelics bring back trauma for me, and ive never been able to look at patterns withought hallucinating. I was recently diagnosed with psychotic depression and DDS and it makes me irrationally upset when i see how normalized and reveered drugs like LSD shrooms and mdma are. Ive done multiple overdoses of IV, oral, IR 4-ho-MET, oral, IV 4-Aco-DMt, oral, IV, IR, IN dpt, vaped DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, IN, vaped 5-MeO-Mipt, synthetic oral Psilocon, 4-HO-PiPT, organic shrooms, LSD-25, 1p-LSd, and MAL when i was 19, and i think its the reason im borderline schizophrenic and have severe night terrors.

 

[pupnik]

right, certainly doing overdoses is not the same as having moderate doses, I mean more is not better than a fair measure in everything, unless you are hoarding or competing.
that can happen in youthful immaturity.
every time I reacquaint with a moderate dose of lsd, I am grateful to breathe and to be alive, as if something forgotten were remembered.

 

[Neuroprotection]

All psychadelics bring back trauma for me, and ive never been able to look at patterns withought hallucinating. I was recently diagnosed with psychotic depression and DDS and it makes me irrationally upset when i see how normalized and reveered drugs like LSD shrooms and mdma are. Ive done multiple overdoses of IV, oral, IR 4-ho-MET, oral, IV 4-Aco-DMt, oral, IV, IR, IN dpt, vaped DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, IN, vaped 5-MeO-Mipt, synthetic oral Psilocon, 4-HO-PiPT, organic shrooms, LSD-25, 1p-LSd, and MAL when i was 19, and i think its the reason im borderline schizophrenic and have severe night terrors.

Predisposition to mental health issues is never a good starting point for psychedelic use, but even so, psychedelics can severely traumatised those Who have no genetic or environmental predisposition to any mental illness. I think it’s the combination of extremely powerful out of this world experience combined with unusualy strong neuroplastic enhancement brought about by these drugs that can make traumatic experiences stick.
If I remember correctly, some people have started to explore the possibility of psychedelic induced PTSD syndrome which is distinct and completely separate from HPPD or prior mental issues exacerbated by psychedelics.
Really sorry to hear about your experience, I hope you make a full recovery

 

[Neuroprotection]

All psychadelics bring back trauma for me, and ive never been able to look at patterns withought hallucinating. I was recently diagnosed with psychotic depression and DDS and it makes me irrationally upset when i see how normalized and reveered drugs like LSD shrooms and mdma are. Ive done multiple overdoses of IV, oral, IR 4-ho-MET, oral, IV 4-Aco-DMt, oral, IV, IR, IN dpt, vaped DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, IN, vaped 5-MeO-Mipt, synthetic oral Psilocon, 4-HO-PiPT, organic shrooms, LSD-25, 1p-LSd, and MAL when i was 19, and i think its the reason im borderline schizophrenic and have severe night terrors.

Do you have any drugs You do enjoy?
Because of my limited experience, it’s only caffeine and nicotine at the moment. However, I do have a really strong feeling I would enjoy the psychostimulants. like methylphenidate or amphetamine. I can imagine myself really enjoying cocaine, but given my personality, It’s probably not a good idea.

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I’m really sorry to hear about your anhedonia and depressive symptoms. if I remember correctly, you were the one who made a post about nicotine giving you more anhedonia.
This isn’t medical advice, but I want to suggest two options for depression, which you can explore further and try if you haven’t already.
The first is transcranial magnetic brain stimulation which targets the nucleus accumbens and other brain regions to re-awaken their activity to promote healthy rewards seeking and gold directed behaviour.
The second option is to try the MAOI selegiline which is particularly good at targeting dopamine deficiency related symptoms like anhedonia, mental fatigue and difficulty exerting effort. I actually encouraged another treatment resistant depression patient who uses this site to try selegiline and they said it has tackled depression symptoms no other treatment could.
Of course, I can’t promise these will work, but it might be good to give them a try.
You’re welcome to send me a PM if you want to talk more about it.

I don't recall ever making a post about nicotine giving me more anhedonia??? Did I??? lol Cause I've never noticed that being an issue.

I do smoke & have anhedonia & I find smoking helps at least engage me in the moment. Smoking a cig is like meditating for me, where I can group my thoughts & get focused.


You're right that I do have anhedonia & major depression though.

My docs don't want to put me on an MAOI & I can't blame them. Cause I doubt I'd be able to give up all the foods that I'd like for it. I some times have high blood pressure already, so if I accidentally ate chocolate or cheese on an MAOI, I could be in big trouble.

Never heard of the transcranial magentic brain stimulation. I'm not even sure where somebody could get that done & I'm sure my insurance wouldn't cover it either.

But I appreciate your help!

 

[bluecollartweeker]

Do you have any drugs You do enjoy?
Because of my limited experience, it’s only caffeine and nicotine at the moment. However, I do have a really strong feeling I would enjoy the psychostimulants. like methylphenidate or amphetamine. I can imagine myself really enjoying cocaine, but given my personality, It’s probably not a good idea.

I love meth and benzos with a tragic degree of affection. Cracks cool, i dont drink i hate pot, i like GHB

 

[kongoman]

All psychadelics bring back trauma for me, and ive never been able to look at patterns withought hallucinating. I was recently diagnosed with psychotic depression and DDS and it makes me irrationally upset when i see how normalized and reveered drugs like LSD shrooms and mdma are. Ive done multiple overdoses of IV, oral, IR 4-ho-MET, oral, IV 4-Aco-DMt, oral, IV, IR, IN dpt, vaped DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, IN, vaped 5-MeO-Mipt, synthetic oral Psilocon, 4-HO-PiPT, organic shrooms, LSD-25, 1p-LSd, and MAL when i was 19, and i think its the reason im borderline schizophrenic and have severe night terrors.

What do you feel when you IV these kind of compounds? What a DMT OD feels like?
YOu have to be brave to IV these kind of drugs. I had many times LSD 25 when I was 18 with no problems( mderate doses) but now( im 45) im afraid to take any psychedelic apart from dissos.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

Yea, getting old sucks. I have random trauma triggers and, chiming in with what Neuroprotector said about it, and if everything goes to south, they can be exceptionally bad after unsuccessful trip and I have next to no sense of security for a while.

 

[kongoman]

Yea, getting old sucks. I have random trauma triggers and, chiming in with what Neuroprotector said about it, and if everything goes to south, they can be exceptionally bad after unsuccessful trip and I have next to no sense of security for a while.

I dont think getting old sucks, it depends on how life is going for you. Im not very different from when I was 18, only think Im more counciouss. Yes I have more knowledge too but my personality hasnt changed a lot. I know best all kind of side effects drugs have too and it can lead to have fear to this kind of drugs. I want to do DMT(never done) and Im waiting to feel good with my self and go throw the fear. Im waiting for the moment...

 

[Neuroprotection]

I love meth and benzos with a tragic degree of affection. Cracks cool, i dont drink i hate pot, i like GHB

I don’t do alcohol or pot either, but that’s for religious reasons as I try my best to practice Islam and follow all the major rules. nevertheless, I can’t really see myself being much of a fan of alcohol or cannabis, I’m not really that sharp and I don’t need any more cognitive impairment.
On the other hand, psychedelics just scare the hell out of me and I’ve always had a deep fear of them when I started reading about them as a child/teenager. even when I read about the bright lights and colours/sparkles and deep imagination they could produce, I always felt A horrible gut feeling. I can only describe it as a mixture of non-specific dread, heavy depression, claustrophobia and eeriness.
On the other hand, whilst I’m a very empathetic person and I love nature/non-psychedelic spirituality, i’m also quite hedonistic in that I like the idea of using a drug simply for pursueing pleasure.
My lifelong dream is to witness or contribute to the development of a drug which produces immense dopaminergic Drive and pleasure without producing intoxication (impaired judgement). and with no development of tolerance or serious harm.

 

[bluecollartweeker]

What do you feel when you IV these kind of compounds? What a DMT OD feels like?
YOu have to be brave to IV these kind of drugs. I had many times LSD 25 when I was 18 with no problems( mderate doses) but now( im 45) im afraid to take any psychedelic apart from dissos.

It was at the time to escape reality to escape my body and surroundings

 

[kongoman]

It was at the time to escape reality to escape my body and surroundings

Im a DMT naive, could you tell how it was to scape from reality?

 

[pupnik]

@bluecollartweeker I loved meth, but that was 50 years ago, hahaha.
I don't think I could say that now if I kept on loving it as I did.
dmt is the closest current cream puff in my drug arsenal.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

All psychadelics bring back trauma for me, and ive never been able to look at patterns withought hallucinating. I was recently diagnosed with psychotic depression and DDS and it makes me irrationally upset when i see how normalized and reveered drugs like LSD shrooms and mdma are. Ive done multiple overdoses of IV, oral, IR 4-ho-MET, oral, IV 4-Aco-DMt, oral, IV, IR, IN dpt, vaped DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, IN, vaped 5-MeO-Mipt, synthetic oral Psilocon, 4-HO-PiPT, organic shrooms, LSD-25, 1p-LSd, and MAL when i was 19, and i think its the reason im borderline schizophrenic and have severe night terrors.

hey - i like your name

 

[bluecollartweeker]

Im a DMT naive, could you tell how it was to scape from reality?

Like a slightly intimidating k hole but more colourfuln and aztec themed

 

[Neuroprotection]

I don't recall ever making a post about nicotine giving me more anhedonia??? Did I??? lol Cause I've never noticed that being an issue.

I do smoke & have anhedonia & I find smoking helps at least engage me in the moment. Smoking a cig is like meditating for me, where I can group my thoughts & get focused.


You're right that I do have anhedonia & major depression though.

My docs don't want to put me on an MAOI & I can't blame them. Cause I doubt I'd be able to give up all the foods that I'd like for it. I some times have high blood pressure already, so if I accidentally ate chocolate or cheese on an MAOI, I could be in big trouble.

Never heard of the transcranial magentic brain stimulation. I'm not even sure where somebody could get that done & I'm sure my insurance wouldn't cover it either.

But I appreciate your help!

I’m very sorry, I wasn’t aware of this post you just made recently. I just sent you a PM, but you can ignore most of it if you like.
I understand your concerns with MAOI, however, with low doses of the MAOI selegiline administered as a skin patch, dietary restrictions don’t apply.
As for magnetic brain stimulation, I’m not sure exactly where you would get that, but I think you can apply online for trials. it is generally considered safe and is non-invasive. if you do manage to get it, just ensure you wear earphones to protect your ears from the extremely loud noise of the electromagnetic generator.