Miscellaneous Potential psychological harms of psychedelics, and why I will never try them!

[Pfafffed]

@Kaleida might have more to offer here. I would just say that my knee jerk reaction to anything involving Strassman is a certain amount of skepticism

 

[Neuroprotection]

We are open to discussions about most ideas here.
Im sorry if you felt that this may be triggering for some here.
Because its probably not at all.

You have the right to a opinion and i think most here respect/dont care if some stranger on the internet makes a thread about why he has decided not to trip.

Also you could be totally right, some people should stay away from drugs in general and others just shouldnt touch psychedelics.
We all have different perspectives already and some types of people do go bonkers if they change theirs.(Not just drugs but even trying to have a discussion with some people sends them of)

Thank you. Yes, everyone here has been respectful and engaged with my points. unfortunately, on other Internet discussion boards, the same cannot be said. I agree with wat someone said on this thread. that is, some psychedelic users have had amazing experiences, and they feel an urge to force this on everyone else in the belief that it will change their lives for the better and solve all their problems.
To be honest, most of us have probably been that type of person at some point in our lives. when I first joined this site in 2015, I was about 20 years old and just getting into neuroscience. I developed an obsession with antioxidants, I literally believed antioxidants could cure every problem and completely prevent all forms of neurodegeneration and neurotoxicity. I remember telling everyone I knew about what I believed was a magic bullet for every ailment. If you look at my old threads from 2016 onwards, almost all of them contained mention of antioxidants, as I believe they could completely prevent drug neurotoxicity and even drug tolerance and addiction. when anyone would challenge this assumption, I remember feeling very annoyed and agitated and I would see them as stupid or misguided. thankfully, I’ve grown out of that phase, but it has taught me how sometimes, our enthusiasm can make us act far out of character.

 

[Kaleida]

Psychedelics are ‘stop’ signals. Most drugs including things like caffeine and nicotine are ‘go’ signals. If you never have anything but ‘go’ signals you’ll eventually get strung out.

Psychedelics are not the only ‘stop’ signals, they are just relatively effective ones. I think our lives are full of ‘go’ and ‘stop’ signals coming from all directions, but that a common problem with modern life in well-off places to live is that there is an overabundance of readily available ‘go’ signals and not necessarily enough ‘stop’ signals immediately present to balance them out. For those who wish to hit the brakes on their own drives for a little while, psychedelics may provide some relief that they otherwise find to be lacking in their lives.

Too much ‘stop’ can be traumatic though. People like to ‘go’. But, too much ‘go’ is bad too. However, caffeine and nicotine are not very strong ‘go’ signals. Maybe you don’t feel like you need more ‘stop’ signals than you’re already getting because you’re not getting too many ‘go’ signals for it to balance out and your mind can intuitively recognize that from exposing yourself to stories of people experiencing strong ‘stop’ signals just like you already felt from a young age that the ‘go’ signals of caffeine and nicotine would appeal to you.

I love getting high. If I am not ‘stopped’ I will ‘go’ all the way to the moon. It’s depressing there.

I may use relatively esoteric language to describe drugs and altered states of consciousness, but that’s not an argument against the veracity of what I’m saying.

Very interesting perspective. perhaps the only difference between psychedelics and books is that the impact of books/literature is probably far more predictable than that of psychedelics.

After close to fifteen years of using psychedelics, I have to say I no longer think of them as being particularly unpredictable. I suspect that fewer people would think that if education about them was more common and encouraged, but I can’t prove that. I know you’ve done your research too, but I think the problem may be more systemic than that.

if ever I need a buzz, I will usually take quite a large dose all at once, usually in the form of energy drinks. sometimes, I would save up energy drinks my parents had bought me until I have, for example, three or four cans of sugar-free monster. then, on a day I am alone at home and have some peace and quiet, I would gulp down about two of these cans in under 15 minutes on an empty stomach in the morning. of course, I only do this if I had a good nights sleep before as this is vital to ensure I don’t become delirious but also to maximise theeuphoria.

I started out doing literally exactly this as a teenager and eventually moved on to trying almost every psychedelic that’s ever been available. Just saying lol. I did use the regular Monster though instead of the sugar-free.

Thanks for that. sorry, in my previous post, I said I would like to try a very strong 5HT2A agonist, when I actually meant a 5HT2A antagonist.

Have you heard of blue lotus? The chemical it contains which is thought to be either the or one of the primary active constituents, which is called nuciferine, has been documented as producing pharmacological and behavioral effects comparable to clozapine, an atypical antipsychotic with D2 receptor partial agonism and 5-HT2A receptor antagonism.

This sentence is a hyperlink to a scientific paper titled “In Vitro and In Vivo Characterization of the Alkaloid Nuciferine.” It describes nuciferine’s pharmacology, including its activity as a 5-HT2A receptor antagonist.

I have smoked blue lotus flower petals many times and it is one of my favorite more mild and legal highs. It is also often used in teas although I have not tried that route.

I know this probably belongs in neuroscience and pharmacology, but I don’t think it’s worth starting a new thread about. we all know that the main target of classical psychedelics is no other than the 5HT2A receptor. it’s one of the main receptors researchers have been focusing on in the past decades, with the other one being the 5HT1A receptor. Unfortunately, due to my blindness, I can’t post links to studies but anyone who is interested can simply Google them. basically, the 5HT1A receptor seems to be somewhat anti-psychedelic if that’s even a thing. apparently, a famous researcher called Rick Strassman, An expert in psychedelics, especially DMT found that selectively blocking the 5HT1A receptor dramatically intensified the psychedelic effects of DMT. another unrelated study I read stated that fiveHT2A antagonism had almost identical effects to 5HT1A receptor agonism.

Actually, just changed my mind whilst writing this post, I may actually start a new thread about the psychology of serotonin receptors in the neuroscience and pharmacology forum.
However, does anyone have any ideas about what I’ve just said?

From what I have read, there seems likely to be some truth to this. 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A receptors antagonistically regulate the same excitatory and inhibitory cortical neurons. There is a range where the total effect of a psychedelic can simply be altered by additional 5-HT1A receptor agonism though, as many popular psychedelics are known to also be 5-HT1A receptor agonists and sometimes with even higher affinity than they have for 5-HT2A receptors. However, it’s been commonly documented that psychedelics with extremely high relative 5-HT1A receptor agonism often fail to produce psychedelic-associated behavioral effects in animal tests on the level associated with those without that selectivity, and these psychedelics when taken by humans seem like they’re somewhat more often described as having qualities such as “lacking in color” that suggest reduced subjective effects, although notably they all still seem to produce what was considered to still feel like a psychedelic experience nonetheless.

Nuciferine is a 5-HT1A receptor agonist. *cough, cough*

that is, some psychedelic users have had amazing experiences, and they feel an urge to force this on everyone else in the belief that it will change their lives for the better and solve all their problems.
To be honest, most of us have probably been that type of person at some point in our lives. when I first joined this site in 2015, I was about 20 years old and just getting into neuroscience. I developed an obsession with antioxidants, I literally believed antioxidants could cure every problem and completely prevent all forms of neurodegeneration and neurotoxicity. I remember telling everyone I knew about what I believed was a magic bullet for every ailment. If you look at my old threads from 2016 onwards, almost all of them contained mention of antioxidants, as I believe they could completely prevent drug neurotoxicity and even drug tolerance and addiction. when anyone would challenge this assumption, I remember feeling very annoyed and agitated and I would see them as stupid or misguided. thankfully, I’ve grown out of that phase, but it has taught me how sometimes, our enthusiasm can make us act far out of character.

This is pretty much what it is. The people that are super obsessed about psychedelics being the fix for every problem are generally just the people who are new to them and feel like they just had all their problems fixed out nowhere. Most will grow out of it like most people do with these things.

That being said, they definitely can help people and that’s part of why people are so very into them.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Psychedelics are ‘stop’ signals. Most drugs including things like caffeine and nicotine are ‘go’ signals. If you never have anything but ‘go’ signals you’ll eventually get strung out.

Psychedelics are not the only ‘stop’ signals, they are just relatively effective ones. I think our lives are full of ‘go’ and ‘stop’ signals coming from all directions, but that a common problem with modern life in well-off places to live is that there is an overabundance of readily available ‘go’ signals and not necessarily enough ‘stop’ signals immediately present to balance them out. For those who wish to hit the brakes on their own drives for a little while, psychedelics may provide some relief that they otherwise find to be lacking in their lives.

Too much ‘stop’ can be traumatic though. People like to ‘go’. But, too much ‘go’ is bad too. However, caffeine and nicotine are not very strong ‘go’ signals. Maybe you don’t feel like you need more ‘stop’ signals than you’re already getting because you’re not getting too many ‘go’ signals for it to balance out and your mind can intuitively recognize that from exposing yourself to stories of people experiencing strong ‘stop’ signals just like you already felt from a young age that the ‘go’ signals of caffeine and nicotine would appeal to you.

I love getting high. If I am not ‘stopped’ I will ‘go’ all the way to the moon. It’s depressing there.

I may use relatively esoteric language to describe drugs and altered states of consciousness, but that’s not an argument against the veracity of what I’m saying.



After close to fifteen years of using psychedelics, I have to say I no longer think of them as being particularly unpredictable. I suspect that fewer people would think that if education about them was more common and encouraged, but I can’t prove that. I know you’ve done your research too, but I think the problem may be more systemic than that.



I started out doing literally exactly this as a teenager and eventually moved on to trying almost every psychedelic that’s ever been available. Just saying lol. I did use the regular Monster though instead of the sugar-free.



Have you heard of blue lotus? The chemical it contains which is thought to be either the or one of the primary active constituents, which is called nuciferine, has been documented as producing pharmacological and behavioral effects comparable to clozapine, an atypical antipsychotic with D2 receptor partial agonism and 5-HT2A receptor antagonism.

This sentence is a hyperlink to a scientific paper titled “In Vitro and In Vivo Characterization of the Alkaloid Nuciferine.” It describes nuciferine’s pharmacology, including its activity as a 5-HT2A receptor antagonist.

I have smoked blue lotus flower petals many times and it is one of my favorite more mild and legal highs. It is also often used in teas although I have not tried that route.



From what I have read, there seems likely to be some truth to this. 5-HT1A and 5-HT2A receptors antagonistically regulate the same excitatory and inhibitory cortical neurons. There is a range where the total effect of a psychedelic can simply be altered by additional 5-HT1A receptor agonism though, as many popular psychedelics are known to also be 5-HT1A receptor agonists and sometimes with even higher affinity than they have for 5-HT2A receptors. However, it’s been commonly documented that psychedelics with extremely high relative 5-HT1A receptor agonism often fail to produce psychedelic-associated behavioral effects in animal tests on the level associated with those without that selectivity, and these psychedelics when taken by humans seem like they’re somewhat more often described as having qualities such as “lacking in color” that suggest reduced subjective effects, although notably they all still seem to produce what was considered to still feel like a psychedelic experience nonetheless.

Nuciferine is a 5-HT1A receptor agonist. *cough, cough*



This is pretty much what it is. The people that are super obsessed about psychedelics being the fix for every problem are generally just the people who are new to them and feel like they just had all their problems fixed out nowhere. Most will grow out of it like most people do with these things.

That being said, they definitely can help people and that’s part of why people are so very into them.

Psychedelics are ‘stop’ signals. Most drugs including things like caffeine and nicotine are ‘go’ signals. If you never have anything but ‘go’ signals you’ll eventually get strung out.

Psychedelics are not the only ‘stop’ signals, they are just relatively effective ones. I think our lives are full of ‘go’ and ‘stop’ signals coming from all directions, but that a common problem with modern life in well-off places to live is that there is an overabundance of readily available ‘go’ signals and not necessarily enough ‘stop’ signals immediately present to balance them out. For those who wish to hit the brakes on their own drives for a little while, psychedelics may provide some relief that they otherwise find to be lacking in their lives.

Too much ‘stop’ can be traumatic though. People like to ‘go’. But, too much ‘go’ is bad too. However, caffeine and nicotine are not very strong ‘go’ signals. Maybe you don’t feel like you need more ‘stop’ signals than you’re already getting because you’re not getting too many ‘go’ signals for it to balance out and your mind can intuitively recognize that from exposing yourself to stories of people experiencing strong ‘stop’ signals just like you already felt from a young age that the ‘go’ signals of caffeine and nicotine would appeal to you.

I love getting high. If I am not ‘stopped’ I will ‘go’ all the way to the moon. It’s depressing there.

I may use relatively esoteric language to describe drugs and altered states of consciousness, but that’s not an argument against the veracity of what I’m saying.

I actually really like your use of esoteric language to describe the different effects of drugs. that is something the scientific profession was lacking in my opinion, though, interestingly, in recent articles I have read, more such language is being used to communicate the effects of psychoactive substances.
I would love to know more about your idea of stop and go signals and how that relates to drugs.
If you don’t mind me asking, are you Muslim?

In regards to blue Lotus, yes, I’ve heard about it on a documentary, where they searched for the plant and then prepared it by soaking it in wine. I’m fascinated by the alkaloid. Nuciferine and it sounds very pleasant. do you know if you can get it in? It’s pure form?

 

[fastandbulbous]

Clozapine was the first atypical antipsychotic, even though it is a phenothiazine drug. I know a fair bit about it, as my mrs was on oral doses of it. It can reduce leukocyte levels to the point of it becoming dangerous, which means it gets classed as an antipsychotic of last choice. Luckily, it didn't really have much effect on my wife's leuckocyte levels. Also one of the least likely to trigger type2 diabetes.
No idea which receptor(s) result in the leukocyte effect.

 

[Skorpio]

On the topic of serotonin receptors:

5-HT1a is what's known as an autoreceptor. Unlike many other receptors, it is located on the same neuron which releases the serotonin. Activation of this receptor decreases serotonin release, as it serves as a feedback sensor. This is said to be anxiolytic, and this fact is likely explained by the distribution of neural circuits where it is expressed.

It won't block psychadelic effects because psychadelics don't work through the release of serotonin. In fact serotonin and psychadelics activate two separate downstream signaling cascades (g-protein and beta arrestin). The lysergamide lisuride is another example of a 5HT2a agonist which does not produce psychadelia.

What is interesting is that some of the beneficial effects of psychadelics (regarding depression/neurogenesis), are separable from psychadelia. Bryan Roth and his proteges have done some interesting work in this field.

 

[Kaleida]

I actually really like your use of esoteric language to describe the different effects of drugs. that is something the scientific profession was lacking in my opinion, though, interestingly, in recent articles I have read, more such language is being used to communicate the effects of psychoactive substances.
I would love to know more about your idea of stop and go signals and how that relates to drugs.
If you don’t mind me asking, are you Muslim?

In regards to blue Lotus, yes, I’ve heard about it on a documentary, where they searched for the plant and then prepared it by soaking it in wine. I’m fascinated by the alkaloid. Nuciferine and it sounds very pleasant. do you know if you can get it in? It’s pure form?

I’m glad you found it relatable. I was raised in a non-religious household and have formed my own ideas about spirituality through my personal experiences, but that’s it.

I came up with the ‘stop’ and ‘go’ concept a while back while trying to figure out a way to better organize the different types of stimuli I encounter in my life hoping to come out of it happier and healthier overall. It’s just an idea of course but I try to base it around my understanding of how things work based on both personal experience and what I’ve learned of the science over the years. With respect to drugs, I find that the simple analogy seems to be addiction, where most drugs that are considered recreational are addictive to at least some degree and do feel motivational to me, while basically the rest of the recreational drugs are either seemingly anti-addictive and tend to make you stop and think, like psychedelics and drugs people consider to be quasi-psychedelic such as Salvia divinorum, while others can produce both kinds of signals depending on the context and how and to what extent you use them, like cannabis and dissociatives. Another thing which technically counts but which people don’t think of in this way as often is capsaicin and other capsaicinoids, the spicy components of peppers. I didn’t eat much spicy food when I was younger but I started including it in my diet frequently thinking that the fact that it mimics a pain signal to produce the immediate feeling of aversion but a subsequent soothing relief was similar to my reaction to drugs like psychedelics and Salvia divinorum and that it might make for a simple, safe ‘stop’ signal I could add to my life easily, and at the very least I can say I’ve always been quite happy that I did (but maybe that’s just because spicy food is delicious). In any case, even when it comes to non-drug and non-food stimuli such as when deciding what music to listen to or TV show to watch, I try to ask myself, “Is this more like ‘go and do’ or ‘stop and think’?” And again, I don’t find either to be preferable inherently, I just try to keep a healthy balance.

About blue lotus, I have heard about making it with wine before too, I haven’t tried it but I’d like to one day. I’m not sure I’ve ever encountered pure nuciferine, although I haven’t looked for it either. It’s possible that it has become available somewhere since it is legal in probably most places and there are people with interest in it, but I can’t promise that. I do know for a fact that some vendors have sold blue lotus extracts to get as close to that as possible before, although I’m not sure how good they are. For what it’s worth, the dried flower petals themselves are already fairly potent. I usually only smoke a little bit more than I would smoke of cannabis at once for a noticeable effect in myself, although I like to use more than that too.

Clozapine was the first atypical antipsychotic, even though it is a phenothiazine drug. I know a fair bit about it, as my mrs was on oral doses of it. It can reduce leukocyte levels to the point of it becoming dangerous, which means it gets classed as an antipsychotic of last choice. Luckily, it didn't really have much effect on my wife's leuckocyte levels. Also one of the least likely to trigger type2 diabetes.
No idea which receptor(s) result in the leukocyte effect.

I looked into this when I was prescribed olanzapine. It's possible that there is more than one mechanism, but what I read at the time was that they were finding evidence that the diabetogenic effect was related to atypical antipsychotics acting as antagonists of the M3 muscarinic acetylcholine receptor. For what it's worth, nuciferine was found to not bind to muscarinic receptors, while still sharing most other monoaminergic sites with atypical antipsychotics.

I have experience using diphenhydramine recreationally and can recognize the anticholinergic effects of olanzapine. I've never felt any such thing from blue lotus, and I've smoked plenty of it. I find it to be mentally quieting and relaxing in a way that doesn’t stop me from being alert, and actually feels quite pleasant in a way I would definitely not say about olanzapine.

On the topic of serotonin receptors:

5-HT1a is what's known as an autoreceptor. Unlike many other receptors, it is located on the same neuron which releases the serotonin. Activation of this receptor decreases serotonin release, as it serves as a feedback sensor. This is said to be anxiolytic, and this fact is likely explained by the distribution of neural circuits where it is expressed.

It won't block psychadelic effects because psychadelics don't work through the release of serotonin.

5-HT1A and 5-HT2A receptors actually do situate on a lot of the same neurons for other things like glutamate and GABA where generally the 1A and 2A receptors have inhibitory and excitatory effects, respectively, so they can interact antagonistically outside of effects on serotonin release.

To my knowledge, presynaptic 5-HT1A receptors are autoreceptors but postsynaptic ones are not.

 

[Skorpio]

5-HT1A and 5-HT2A receptors actually do situate on a lot of the same neurons for other things like glutamate and GABA where generally the 1A and 2A receptors have inhibitory and excitatory effects, respectively, so they can interact antagonistically outside of effects on serotonin release.

To my knowledge, presynaptic 5-HT1A receptors are autoreceptors but postsynaptic ones are not.

I totally was unaware of postsynaptic 5HT1A receptors until now. It makes sense, as it allows for bidirectional control of fast neurotransmission.

Autoreceptors are by definition postsynaptic, so you are on the money with that.

Now to go and read about what is known at circuit level for 5HT1A receptors. I have no real idea how they are arranged (though I do hear they increase dopamine release so maybe something similar to inhibitory inputs on VTA projecting GABA neurons).

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Thank you. Yes, everyone here has been respectful and engaged with my points. unfortunately, on other Internet discussion boards, the same cannot be said. I agree with wat someone said on this thread. that is, some psychedelic users have had amazing experiences, and they feel an urge to force this on everyone else in the belief that it will change their lives for the better and solve all their problems.
To be honest, most of us have probably been that type of person at some point in our lives. when I first joined this site in 2015, I was about 20 years old and just getting into neuroscience. I developed an obsession with antioxidants, I literally believed antioxidants could cure every problem and completely prevent all forms of neurodegeneration and neurotoxicity. I remember telling everyone I knew about what I believed was a magic bullet for every ailment. If you look at my old threads from 2016 onwards, almost all of them contained mention of antioxidants, as I believe they could completely prevent drug neurotoxicity and even drug tolerance and addiction. when anyone would challenge this assumption, I remember feeling very annoyed and agitated and I would see them as stupid or misguided. thankfully, I’ve grown out of that phase, but it has taught me how sometimes, our enthusiasm can make us act far out of character.

Yeah some people call it a Messiah complex.
Is quite common with people getting into lsd esp.

But like you said this almost cultish behavior is not uncommon in various places.
Some vegans(and now also carnivore people) can act in similar ways or people into yoga or some other physical activity that has helped them.

I used to think and still partily do that everyone should learn martial arts at a young age.
Both for the physical education but also since it can really help with confidence and staying cool under stress.
People would probably be more careful with saying stupid stuff if they knew most people in the room can bang..
Just like you dont Rob a dinner in a state with concealed carry laws lol.

 

[Oldman Liver]

JHhOK, I gotchya, I see your angle there now, I was a bit puzzled, thought maybe you ought to be on coffee lovers forum or something. Not too many cigarette



Thanks for that. sorry, in my previous post, I said I would like to try a very strong 5HT2A agonist, when I actually meant a 5HT2A antagonist.
Very true what you said about nicotine, it definitely sharpens the senses and the mind, increases alertness and produces strange body sensations. nicotine taken before bed can produce very strange dreams if you manage to actually get to sleep, and these dreams are very vivid. in that way, yes, nicotine has some psychedelic like effects. However, I feel that in other ways nicotine is opposite to psychedelics. For example, in my experience at least, A strong dose of nicotine makes me content and happy with where I am, kind of like I imagine an opioid to be. paradoxically to its alerting effect, nicotine also largely eliminates my sense of fear of the unknown. I first discovered this one time a few years ago when I was alone. whilst I don’t really believe in the supernatural, e.g. ghosts, haunting people, I would still get an eerie/creepy feeling and shivers down my spine whenever watching those weird ghostbusting programs where people claim their houses are really haunted. This was especially so when I was alone. One time whilst watching such a program, I began getting the shivers and goosebumps and the atmosphere was already eerie and dark. when I went to the bathroom, I remembered my father had left some very high nicotine e-cigarette liquid in his vape device, so I took quite a few hits of that. I did this because I was bored and wanted the nicotine rush, however, I unintentionally discovered that The Erie feeling one sometimes gets when alone had completely disappeared.
Also, the dreams I get if I manage to sleep after taking nicotine are sometimes very bizarre, but normally just extremely vivid and reflections of daily life.
I also noticed that nicotine seems to somehow suppress spirituality. basically, whilst nicotine can make me feel serene and tranquil, I strangely feel a sense of decreased connectedness, kind of the complete opposite of what I imagine psychedelics to be.
Do you have any thoughts on this

Well yeah, kind of. The cool people at school smoke cigarettes, right? Those guys are above it all. And keep your trap shut, they don't want your stinking opinion.
They don't care! They are total badasses! A few decades ago it began to dawn on me that there was a kind of strong contribution that being a smoker made to one's
personality. Was it nicotine? Who knows, maybe its all just my perception.It seems to me those people have a chip on their shoulders, I thought, and they aren't going to listen to your wishy washy crap!
Thats all fine and good, but ciggy smokers don't have a reverse gear it seems, its kind of a fuck everyone attitude from the time they get up in the morning. Others are more passive aggressive
about it others more militant. "Oh FFS!...Dammit where's my lighter! !" Or perhaps you're an intellectual, but you burn to get that book out and you know the truth, those other idiots don't.
They don't do touchy feely or kind and sensitive in my observation, I think it may be because of ciggies.
I have discussed that with a few of them, they hit back with something to the effect of, "Fuck you. you'd be too if you had to worry about offending non-smokers
like yourself and had to pay the extra costs for cigarettes that I do. Leave me alone, I'm going out for a fag. And fuck off, did i say that yet?"
Or "its a class thing allright mate! I'm working class and your posh, you don't have the problems I do! And if you did you'd smoke
it ain't about cigarettes, mate! Keep talking and I'll give you a thumping, cheeky posh cunt!"

I have had very good friends and girlfriends who were ex-smokers, I have never had one friendship with any smoker in my life.
I have nothing against smokers, pure tobacco, smells nice to me, triggers asthma attacks in me, but it is all the additives that are so noxious. Smoke can be annoying
but I think smokers, should be respected, we are all very obnoxious beings in our own way, we devastate others just by being in the room
too, make them unhealthy and provoke all kinds of negativity in them. Perhaps we are stunningly good looking, or have a confidence that
marginalizes others. Its nothing we have done intentionally but that doesn't nullify the harm we cause others just being who we are
stepping on bugs and hurting everyone's feelings aceing them out of their life dreams perhaps simply because
the glint in our eyes or our voice is appealing. I don't smoke, but I'm kind of a bad guy too and i ddn't even have to do anything.

Even my younger brother who smokes hates my guts and didn't before he took up smoking at the tender innocent age of 31. "Why do you hate me?'
"Because you're a fuckin retard! You have brain damage and because of that you don't even seem to understand that! " (Gets up in huff to go smoke)
He is one wound up son of a...well, I would say bitch, thats my mother, so thats not too good to say.

Yes, I can see that actually that it makes a person less sensitive, sort of pathologically driven to do both negative and positive things. The musicians
I like I think are just about unimously smokers: Charles Mingus, Eric Dolphy, Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page, Magic Sam, Howlin Wolf, Billy Holiday, the list goes on and on, all smokers.

I don't know anythinh about and don't feel any interest in neurochemistry, so I don't know what you are referring to 5a54 agony or whatever.
I don't trust or like science. Its authoritarian and fascist stuff: you need the equipment, the funding and the big institutional connections or you don't have a voice
you are a dummy and fodder for their extermination camps, a useless by-product. Yes, obviously, without science we wouldn't have LSd or many other contributions
those things are just one offs. They want to get the neurochemistry down so that they can control our minds absolutely and the press of a button. Yeah, I recognize
i sound like a knuckle dragging luddite, but look at the world we live in today 2023, Well maybe because i am an old man, its horrifying, follow the science and all o that
prhaps for you you don't know anything else so its all a lot of fun and so interesting.

 

[Chris Timothy]

sorry if I misunderstood this, did you say you had your life ruined by A large dose of mushrooms? if so, do you mind sharing your experience, describing your life before and after taking mushrooms.

I've got a complicated story. Not only in the sense that many intricaties interconnect over it, but also in the sense that the cultural climate isn't ready yet to openly discuss them. Forgive me for keeping the description vague.

And I also must admit up front that I simple don't know that I can blame the mushrooms for messing up my life. Things weren't pretty to begin with. Maybe I've done the best I could with the means I had.

Yes, in retrospect I misused the psychedelic by not heeding the set and setting, at least the setting. I reckoned I had my safe space in which to mentally unravel. But turns out I needed more space, more space than a room in a house. I needed a place far away from the pain and suffering, from which to look back on it all. Instead I was in the middle of it. Interacted with it.

It's been two decades now, and my insights of that day haven't been falsified. All the growth I've had as an adult has been in line with it. So I suppose wisdom had indeed been bestowed. But because it was too much at once to take in, the thoughts became actions, and the actions destructive. Not only was it too much to take in, now I had to take in even more, because of those actions.

Always respect a harm-reduction approach, both personal, and here as a public service announcement. So, thanks.

I would add that while there are reports of people’s lives being ruined by psychedelics, the mounting evidence in controlled trials does not show these adverse events.

So, OP, might you be talking about the MISuse of psychelics (i.e. overdosing, combining with other drugs, ignoring the known risk for people at risk for psychosis). In that case, misuse is misuse. Used properly, it’s difficult to document a death or life ruined, unless I’m mistaken. And in that case, your post could seem more like unnecessary fear mongering than harm reduction.

I say this respectfully.

Well yeah clinical trials screen for set and insure setting. But how to account for them in practice, on your own? Set is suspect from the getgo, I mean, why are you doing this? And the boundaries of whatever setting you create can be violated, as it's you who has set them. Going out in nature solves the setting conundrum, but that's logistically convoluted stupid hippy crap to a disturbed individual seeking healing in an urban context.

Is that an accurate description of the problem with the external vadility of those clinical trials, or am I fear mongering again?