Israel is under attack

[Mr. Krinkle]

I also think tearing down an American flag and replacing it with a Palestinian flag is just as disgusting as people raising confederate flags at the Jan 6th riots. Unpatriotic. Provocatory. Divisive.

yea the south is still mad about being beaten badly by the yanks 200 years ago

i love it

 

[Jabberwocky]

I also think tearing down an American flag and replacing it with a Palestinian flag is just as disgusting as people raising confederate flags at the Jan 6th riots. Unpatriotic. Provocatory. Divisive.

Actually I think the Palestinian flag is even worse, because it's a different country altogether, one who is ethnically and religiously related to the people who did 9/11 and the people we were at war with for 20 years.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

1960s -> left embraces non-violent protests for racial equality and to exit Vietnam
1990s -> left embraces non-violent protests for gay rights and to save the trees
2020s -> left embraces hyper-violent far right antisemitic jihadist culture to defend people living 6000 miles who would lynch them for being gay if they ever met

The protests here have been quite peaceful. The tone here sounds rather Islamaphobic. The argument is grasping at straws to attack those who are against the funding of indiscriminate bombing of women and children

 

[deficiT]

Can we not do this please. Don't try and shoehorn my stance into a this or that political ideology, I don't give a fuck about conservative (or liberal) talking points. And more broadly, this picking of sides, it's not necessary; I actually agree with some of the sentiments you're expressing regarding state power.

You're fine, sorry to shoehorn or make this about a greater political stance, I went on to say it really didn't matter ultimately. But in the same way you would express distaste in many people holding a similar view, I expressed my own, it's not even really directed at you in a negative way, ultimately it is just open dialog and we are just the ones experiencing it.

People chanting things and waving flags that should see them arrested, but the police do absolutely nothing.

Arrested? I've seen people fly flags that should get their asses kicked, but not arrested. What flags are those in particular?

Let's not pretend that the power in the Islamic world is not just as full of shit as ol'whitey in the West though. We can dissect what's going on without having to let emotions completely drowning out the nuance, and blinding us to the fact that within these protests there are many people who we have a right to be deeply suspicious/concerned about.

I won't disagree, the governments over there are just as corrupt. And fundamentalist Islam has done awful things. For the same reason I don't blame Christianity for a president who's sworn in on a Bible and proceeded to murder millions, I don't blame this religion that's also been tainted with extremism either. As I said previously, a standard western/eu/whatever person has more in common with the average Arab than they do with their own governments. All of our governments are very much acting not out of our will anymore. It's actually gotten impossible to control at this point, there's really nothing we can do anymore, besides radical change, so that's what I'm a proponent of.

Who do I blame? Both the police/state machinery, and the protestors. The protestors of late are just helping play into the states narratives, regarding protest in and of itself, while also personally benefitting from it (underhanded self-serving Islamic motivations). Which makes it harder for people like me who, down the line, might have to protest against the state on something that matters here, in this country - the anti-covid protests were overwhelming white British, people who earn and pay taxes, not unlike a sizeable portion of the Muslim community who are utter sponges off the state so no surprises we saw none of them protesting with us.

I agree with you there that the police/state machinery is to blame but you lost me on that rest. If you already blame the government for fucking up, how can you then blame protestors for going too far or pushing the wrong buttons? There would be no protests if the state acted in the people's will and didn't operate unopposed. Protesting is literally the only card that citizens have anymore. Idk why you had to go on to say Muslim are sponges off the state, that sounds like the same shit White people have been saying about Black people in America for generations. I'm not even trying to do a gotcha that is just like a prejudiced and unfair thing to say so hopefully you understand that, it doesn't matter what demographic statistics you might post as receipts.

If I actually believed that the university I was attending was literally funding genocide then yes, of course I would stop giving them my money. And I would not want to have a piece of paper from them either. You're going to accept a degree from an institution you believe is financing war crimes and mass murder? It doesn't make sense. These people claim to be so ideologically pure but then they accept their degrees soaked in the blood of Palestinian children?

Sure, in a perfect world. But you know we don't live in one of those. Most mature people would not claim to be ideologically pure, so I'm not sure why you're putting that on others. In a modern world where it is very literally get your bread or die, and what little social support you might get is always at risk of being cut, many people have to sacrifice on some of their convictions. That is just a reality. This might be jargony but there is literally no ethical consumption under capitalism. Why do you expect everyone to rise above these systems and when they physically can't, you and others are the first to look at it as their fault, and can't see any of this as a product of their conditions? I think that's a failure of vision personally. Yeah let me just drop out of school where I live, with my no money having ass, and just fly/drive/run back to, well, Mama's house or the streets or the next school to take out another big ass loan, to go into lifelong debt to get some expensive receipt that says I'm not an idiot and I can be a good worker bee that I should've been getting for free the whole damn time.

Well, I mean this is an online forum and we're in the politics section. So I think it's fair for us to use our words to bitch here. Right?

Granted, yes, let the bitching commence. I'm speaking more generally than literally at you and me though here. Hopefully you can recognize that there is a massive contingent of people that basically shoot down any social movement no matter what though right? It's generally always the same people too right? It's certainly a pattern I've been noticing for years.

I also think tearing down an American flag and replacing it with a Palestinian flag is just as disgusting as people raising confederate flags at the Jan 6th riots. Unpatriotic. Provocatory. Divisive.

How so? Is it not just a flag or a symbol? How else should you tell your government that you're mad at them and they're fucking up? Would you rather it be a gunshot of a person that's authorized the killing of millions? Or a strategically placed bomb to cut off a military supply chain? Would that be too pointed? Maybe that would be worse right?

Fuck patriotism. That shit went out of fashion after WWII when we stopped fighting Nazis and started killing anyone and everyone for capitalist expansion for 80 years.This whole jingoist nonsense is fueled by dated ass concepts like that. You are basically saying fuck Palestine it can't have the concept of a state, even in the most basic sense of flying it's colors, and to even fly that thought is an insult to me as my great state will always reign supreme.

 

[deficiT]

1960s -> left embraces non-violent protests for racial equality and to exit Vietnam
1990s -> left embraces non-violent protests for gay rights and to save the trees
2020s -> left embraces hyper-violent far right antisemitic jihadist culture to defend people living 6000 miles who would lynch them for being gay if they ever met

The Black Panthers that helped push America towards more fully addressing civil rights were not non violent. This is the left. The labor movement that got us a lot of basic workers rights was not non violent. You know why? Because the state is not non violent. And even when parts of these movements have been non violent, the government worked it's ass off to mark the parts it didn't like as violent to stir squares into a frenzy because of their misunderstanding of people's intentions.

Which is what we are literally witnessing right now and I'm talking through.

 

[mal3volent]

The protests here have been quite peaceful. The tone here sounds rather Islamaphobic. The argument is grasping at straws to attack those who are against the funding of indiscriminate bombing of women and children

"Indiscriminate bombing" , another term you guys routinely misuse.

Also, in what way was snafu's comment "islamaphobic" ?
I hope you can back up that charge if you're going to accuse someone of it.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

The Black Panthers that helped push America towards more fully addressing civil rights were not non violent. This is the left. The labor movement that got us a lot of basic workers rights was not non violent. You know why? Because the state is not non violent. And even when parts of these movements have been non violent, the government worked it's ass off to mark the parts it didn't like as violent to stir squares into a frenzy because of their misunderstanding of people's intentions.

Which is what we are literally witnessing right now and I'm talking through.

Yea you're a self proclaimed mao-ist

They were non violent too

 

[deficiT]

Yea you're a self proclaimed mao-ist

They were non violent too

Nah they weren't. Fash get the wall, it'll be fine. I'll get the helicopter I know. It's a tale as old as time. At least I'm honest.

 

[deficiT]

Yea you're a self proclaimed mao-ist

They were non violent too

Also foh krink I just broke it down I'm tryna hear some real responses

 

[deficiT]

"Indiscriminate bombing" ,

If 25+k drops in a couple months is not indiscriminate bombing, I'm really not sure what is.

 

[mal3volent]

Sure, in a perfect world. But you know we don't live in one of those. Most mature people would not claim to be ideologically pure, so I'm not sure why you're putting that on others. In a modern world where it is very literally get your bread or die, and what little social support you might get is always at risk of being cut, many people have to sacrifice on some of their convictions. That is just a reality. This might be jargony but there is literally no ethical consumption under capitalism. Why do you expect everyone to rise above these systems and when they physically can't, you and others are the first to look at it as their fault, and can't see any of this as a product of their conditions? I think that's a failure of vision personally. Yeah let me just drop out of school where I live, with my no money having ass, and just fly/drive/run back to, well, Mama's house or the streets or the next school to take out another big ass loan, to go into lifelong debt to get some expensive receipt that says I'm not an idiot and I can be a good worker bee that I should've been getting for free the whole damn time.

Well first of all, I think the vast majority of people in question here have the means to make other academic arrangements and transfer to an institution they are more ideologically aligned with. They aren't going to end up on the street. If you aren't willing to accept small sacrifices like that, I'm not sure I buy that you are actually that invested in this and you're basically just virtue signaling and being anti-the Current Thing.

massive contingent of people that basically shoot down any social movement no matter what though right? It's generally always the same people too right? It's certainly a pattern I've been noticing for years.

what I've noticed is that these movements start out with a ton of support. Then radical elements push shit further and further to an unacceptable place and that's what ends up destroying it. The vast majority of people support equal rights for blacks, trans people, don't want to see innocent people die, etc-- but we aren't willing to sign on to everything that becomes associated with the groups who are promoting it the loudest.

I mean, I think these people do truly marginalized people a great disservice when 2 seconds after they start railing against whatever the current thing is they immediately pivot to talking about communism and shit.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Maybe Hamas should move the women and children out of harms way since it's their that they asked for

 

[deficiT]

.... More than SIX YEARS of bombs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude y'all really gotta stop making up definitions. Tens of thousands of bombs in the first couple months of the conflict, tens of thousands of people dead at this point, is not senseless and indiscriminate. Like that other guy said a couple weeks ago, it's just collateral damage. The whole world is watching and calling this out. Y'all really just want to stand firm and say "but Hamas fucked up first" and stand on your pride about this without even mildly grazing your mind across the fact that that shit is overkill.

I'm sorry but that's honestly a fucked up thing to say and defend. Think whatever but, that's where I'm at.

 

[mal3volent]

If 25+k drops in a couple months is not indiscriminate bombing, I'm really not sure what is.

If Israel were truly indiscriminately bombing Gaza the death toll would be much, much higher. Catastrophically higher. Like I said, the term does not mean what you think it means. It has nothing to do with the number of bombs.

 

[-=SS=-]

Arrested? I've seen people fly flags that should get their asses kicked, but not arrested. What flags are those in particular?

Hezbollah's flag is illegal, for instance. There have been instances of black flags with the Islamic text, which while not illegal in itself, should fall under incitement to hatred laws given the context of them being displayed. But in both instances, the Police again do not effectively enforce either. Yet, if someone were to wave a Nazi flag they would be arrested for it.. for incitement to hatred or stoking tensions etc.. despite the Nazi political party not being active in our era.

Someone was arrested for complaining on Twitter about the Palestinian flags put up on lampposts in his area in London. It's all a mess.

As I said previously, a standard western/eu/whatever person has more in common with the average Arab than they do with their own governments.

I don't think this is true. The psychology of the average Western citizen has some clear differences to our counterparts in Arab states, because of the influence of Islam on their psychology. This is where we start to get into real trouble, because while it is fine to be different it is not fine to overlook these differences when they might come into direct confrontation in close quarters. Look at what is happening across Europe, once the Muslim population reaches a certain size then they inevitably start making assertive demands to impose things of benefit to their psychology and way of doing things, which sit in direct confrontation to our way of doing things.

I agree with you there that the police/state machinery is to blame but you lost me on that rest. If you already blame the government for fucking up, how can you then blame protestors for going too far or pushing the wrong buttons? There would be no protests if the state acted in the people's will and didn't operate unopposed. Protesting is literally the only card that citizens have anymore.

To give a parallel example, look at immigration. Do I begrudge immigrants who take advantage of the UK's utterly spineless immigration policy, in order to seek out a better economic life for themselves? Well, yes I do actually. Why? Because it takes two to tango. I blame the government and its useful idiot supporters of course, but immigrants who take advantage of the situation are in direct competition with me, and my generation, in terms of jobs and housing. What am I supposed to do, cheer on as my chances to better my life are diminished, when these people would in all likely hood not give a damn if I fell through the cracks as a result?

Likewise with protesting, with these protests in particular, dominated by people who taken advantage of the aforementioned immigration context, are now devaluing my ability to protest the state here, in the future, by pushing it too far now on an issue that has absolutely no relevance for this country or the average British person.

We've literally just seen local councillors being elected on the back of this Gaza hot-topic when it has fuck all to do with local council matters. And my over-arching point is exemplified by the fact one of these elected literally said 'Allahu Akbar' in celebration of being elected.

Green Party investigates councillor who shouted ‘Allahu Akbar’ after election

I can blame protestors when they are masquerading for their own self-interest. Which is exactly what the Muslim contingent are doing. Playing up to our sensitivity and tolerance, in order to get a foot in the door. If you take a step back and look at it dispassionately, it's obvious what is going on. We're being taken advantage of, basically.

 

[deficiT]

Well first of all, I think the vast majority of people in question here have the means to make other academic arrangements and transfer to an institution they are more ideologically aligned with. They aren't going to end up on the street. If you aren't willing to accept small sacrifices like that, I'm not sure I buy that you are actually that invested in this and you're basically just virtue signaling and being anti-the Current Thing.



what I've noticed is that these movements start out with a ton of support. Then radical elements push shit further and further to an unacceptable place and that's what ends up destroying it. The vast majority of people support equal rights for blacks, trans people, don't want to see innocent people die, etc-- but we aren't willing to sign on to everything that becomes associated with the groups who are promoting it the loudest.

I mean, I think these people do truly marginalized people a great disservice when 2 seconds after they start railing against whatever the current thing is they immediately pivot to talking about communism and shit.

"It's just virtue signaling" is basically saying no one can have any political beliefs unless they fully uproot their entire lives and be completely ideologically pure is what you're saying. That's insanity. So all of the kids just have to drop out of school or it means nothing. I really don't get that. Have you ever been involved in activism? It's very rare that someone is able to devote their entire lives to it. It doesn't mean that people are not both committed and passionate about it. It's all bs, they can't have these beliefs, expressing them publicly means nothing unless they drop out of school. That's actually a crazy thing to say.

Being anti the current thing is all the energy that's being given right now.

So instead of just not signing on to everything, you basically criticize and oppose the entire thing from the get. Like has been the situation, no matter how many bodies drop, it's still Hamas fault, etc etc...

Why is it you or anyone else's job to tone police or censor ideas? Are people too dumb to decipher from free information what they would like to believe in? Is someone believing in egalitarianism dangerous to you?

The people that oppose social movements are opposing them way before anyone mentions any "radical" shit. Your comment cuts against the entire grain of this whole progression. It's the same people saying George Floyd was a criminal fck him, Palestinians started this fck them, they've been saying this the whole time, there has never been any radical shift that turned people off.

It's more like movements lose steam because no matter what there's an army of critics looking for any reason to cut against these movements and turn them into bad guys, and the government doesn't do shit, because these same simple ass critics keep putting forward the same simple ass ideas to the same simple ass politicians. It's pretty simple.

 

[deficiT]

If Israel were truly indiscriminately bombing Gaza the death toll would be much, much higher. Catastrophically higher. Like I said, the term does not mean what you think it means. It has nothing to do with the number of bombs.

The problem is you need to see more bodies before you see an issue with this, and don't recognize how that is a whack moral dilemma. Your position on this has been off from the start... And the people working overtime in this thread to disprove mass murder is wild

 

[Jabberwocky]

The tone here sounds rather Islamaphobic.

It's not Islamophobic to make factual statements about a group of people. Criticizing Islam does not constitute Islamophobia, either. That's an opinion. Islamophobia would require discrimination, persecution, hate speach and/or violence.

Is it Islamophobic to say Muslims are homophobic?

*jeopardy theme song plays*

 

[deficiT]

To give a parallel example, look at immigration. Do I begrudge immigrants who take advantage of the UK's utterly spineless immigration policy, in order to seek out a better economic life for themselves? Well, yes I do actually. Why? Because it takes two to tango. I blame the government and its useful idiot supporters of course, but immigrants who take advantage of the situation are in direct competition with me, and my generation, in terms of jobs and housing. What am I supposed to do, cheer on as my chances to better my life are diminished, when these people would in all likely hood not give a damn if I fell through the cracks as a result?

Sharing is one of those things we learned before grade school man. I'm sorry but unless it's, literally your house/land, the land doesn't belong to you. The common area does not belong to you specifically. Just because you walk down a street doesn't mean it belongs to you. Immigrants don't destroy economies, that's actually insane they actually create jobs bro. If you can't keep up with the competition or the flow of free enterprise maybe you should get better at what you're doing or go somewhere else? At least, that's what everyone tells me when I have any problem at all with the way things are governed. Why should you be any different?

It's actually ironic af you're talking about the neighbors moving in on you considering your countries extensive history of taking over entire countries and turning them into proxy states.

But yeah we better not get on this immigration thing because if you don't understand that people have a God given, not Man given, liberty like that then we'll never agree.

Self awareness levels at an all time high.

 

[deficiT]

It's not Islamophobic to make factual statements about a group of people. Criticizing Islam does not constitute Islamophobia, either.

Is it Islamophobic to say Muslims are homophobic?

*jeopardy theme song plays*

No but it's dumb as shit when you use that as a piece to redirect from mass murder over and over and over and over and over again