Anti-Narcissism

[Jabberwocky]

A couple quotes that I strongly relate to so when I review this thread it's easier for me to remember:

when something is unusual it is unusual but when it becomes the status quo it is what it is

I feel this. And not always is the majority in line with our personal experience. Especially for neurodiverse or otherwise outside the box type personalities.

Don't try to obstruct everything all of the time. Find a way to deal with aggressiveness. Find a way to release what is inside I guess. ....

Yep - so hard to balance acting with tact and socially acceptable ways while also staying true to our emotions and feelings.

We all don't have to feel the same way.

But I think a big point of yours @kiely if I understand correctly is that despite all these things, we can all still and should be able to get along.

But everything is actually not an isolated thing so we all learn adaptation.

Yeah. For example as much as people say they have "luck" or something, it could just be that the end result was more related to everything before it than we thought.

Have you ever thought, "dam if only I didn't do so-and-so the outcome would have been dramatically different" - and bringing this back to a humanistic or social idea: we all have effects on others, some subtle, but all very real.

 

[ihermit]

I

My thoughts:

Narcissistic and sociopathic traits are more common than we'd think. The USA basically encourages these behaviors. And the lack of empathy can be used as a weapon (which is IMO what is magnified in articles and a big part of the negative stigma) although it's not always a conscious thing. It's mainly for self defense/preservation.

Psychopaths I believe are more incidentally cruel as opposed to purposely, contrary to articles claiming they are 100% aware of their wrongdoings. I also believe they are more or less "dormant" if grown up in a "prosocial" environment, until an event "triggers" their mostly ruthless genetic makeup.

While the lack of empathy can be a problem in society i don't think it's as much of a conscious choice as people think.

I would agree that a lack of empathy is not a conscious choice. Especially where Society encourages certain narcissistic, even sociopathic behaviours.

Taking a long view, a perspective, there seems to me A LOT of our social/human behaviour that that is unconscious. I conclude thus because as I age I see the same (negative) behaviours over and over again by the same, as well as different people. It is as if we humans can only behave in certain patterns and are doomed to repeat them ... either individually through time or generationally. I mean each generation repeats the behaviours of previous generations.

I take as a proof that while on the one hand we criticise violence in society ... our tv programs contain an awful lot of murder and killing (sociopathic behaviour). Why can't we see that fictionalised violence is often acted out, in fact is an 'entertainment' norm?

What makes us thrill to the kill?

 

[Jnowhere]

I

I would agree that a lack of empathy is not a conscious choice. Especially where Society encourages certain narcissistic, even sociopathic behaviours.

Taking a long view, a perspective, there seems to me A LOT of our social/human behaviour that that is unconscious. I conclude thus because as I age I see the same (negative) behaviours over and over again by the same, as well as different people. It is as if we humans can only behave in certain patterns and are doomed to repeat them ... either individually through time or generationally. I mean each generation repeats the behaviours of previous generations.

I take as a proof that while on the one hand we criticise violence in society ... our tv programs contain an awful lot of murder and killing (sociopathic behaviour). Why can't we see that fictionalised violence is often acted out, in fact is an 'entertainment' norm?

What makes us thrill to the kill?

Westerns didn't encourage kids to be killers.(back in the day) Blaming the media for bad behavior is a cop out.
People know right from wrong, they just don't care or are raised wrong, or are evil or possibly severely mentally ill( that is not a valid excuse for violent behavior.)
Murder per capita was on the decline, not sure if it still is.
Blaming the media, ok maybe that drill/ kill music being pumped into the heads of some kids, might contribute, but what about freedom of speech. What about lousy parenting?

 

[kiely]

A couple quotes

And then I always just wonder if something is healthy. Thnx.


~~~~~~~


It seems like it's not about how we are doing but also the anticipation of . . . now what.

Yah and interesting food for thought. Nice.

And it's good to be able to tap into being present. Maybe we may need to develop skills that we didn't know we had that can help to cope.

At a certain point you can recognize that something is what it is supposed to be and just appreciate things we go through that we are supposed to.

Recognize ideas. Develop a skill to socialize and put it into play I suppose.

We are all stuck here together to coexist. Lol.

Nice posts !!

 

[kiely]

oh and one more.

" Learning is not the product of teaching.
Learning is the product of the activity of learners."

lol

 

[Jnowhere]

Hey Kiely, you always seem to have such happy posts( I mean it, in a good way).
I had a friend, hey I was a drunk so I couldn't really say shit, in college who had a lot going for him and was likable at first. I wondered why he didn't have hardly if any close friends but me and people I knew.
I figured it out, when I realized who he really was, an almost insufferable narcissistic, self centered pathological liar. He had criminal tendencies and was a low level part time criminal. We got along well though, because I am not one to take shit and he could change the subject fast. But he turned out ok, but it would have only takin a little to get him to commit, some serious crimes, but I hate jail and am not inclined to engage is criminal activity, there is no beer in jail or prison, only drugs and really bad cell made wine, pruno I think it is called. Besides I wasn't short on cash.
Anyways, people could see through him, I had my issues, he had his. So we got along well, because even though I saw through him, I knew what to expect.
But, that brings me to my point. He had serious criminal tendencies and that made me realize, that if he hung with the wrong people, it would have been very easy, for him to dive into a life of, serious crime. He had no real moral compass and only thought about himself, but I didn't even know or care what a narcissistic person was. I would say it would have only taken a serious criminal plan, and some success at it to be a full blown sociopath and hardened criminal type. He didn't really drink or use drugs.
People like him can be charming at first, but unless your, well like I was back then, drunk and troubled, then people will see through you, and not want to be around you. The hilarious/ sad part was he mainly knew people and made what few friends he had, through me. The people at college were smart enough to see through him; me I didn't care, so we got along, but there is potentially, looking back, real serious problems with narcissistic types, and many maybe be budding sociopaths. And even dangerous

 

[kiely]

O.P. "Why are there certain labels we are not sympathetic towards?"

^^^ true dat

 

[kiely]

I do remember that you did mention interacting with a narcissist before. I do. @Jnowhere

It's amazing he survived.

omg I am so just kidding.

That's amazing !!!!

kl

 

[Jnowhere]

O.P. "Why are there certain labels we are not sympathetic towards?"

^^^ true data

Because of how annoying they are, and the potential for real evil.

 

[kiely]

I hate spellchecmmmmm

 

[Jabberwocky]

@Jnowhere that's interesting.

What types of things did you notice that others did not?

 

[Vastness]

I do not understand this thread. People dislike narcissists for the same reason they dislike pedophiles. Because narcissistic behaviour is typically extremely harmful to those around them. Narcissists are frequent abusers, manipulators, and just generally dishonest, terrible people, and a headache to be around.

Yes, they themselves usually suffered in a way that damaged them to such an extent that they mostly cannot help but cause everyone around them to suffer, and that is very sad of course. It is almost certainly not a choice, but neither is pedophilia. Their own trauma does not excuse traumatising others, no matter how difficult this is for them to avoid. If we are to make any ethical judgements of human behaviour at all, then that judgement should be directed against narcissists.

Yes - narcissism has become a buzzword recently, yes, maybe it is frequently misapplied, yes, NPD - ie, an actually diagnosable disorder with a profound impact on one's ability to function socially - is different to someone just having narcissistic tendencies. Yes, like almost everything narcissism exists on a spectrum - YES, humans are all unique and not all narcissists are oblivious abusers who frequently hurt people close to them, urrgh, my god... these things are all perhaps vaguely interesting in their own right but they have zero relevance to the very real negative social and psychological impacts that even lower level narcissistic behaviours leave in their wake.

Frankly, there is a wealth of support available to narcissists if they want it. Civil society, for the most part, bends over backwards to accommodate narcissistic people, and it is exactly this tendency to lean towards compliance and not being unnecessarily combatative that narcissists and other abusive, manipulative personalities exploit - in that context, the current upswing of public awareness that narcissism is even a thing, and especially that it is, indeed a bad thing that should be resisted by those with the strength of will and ethical conviction to do so - is a very very welcome, very overdue overcorrection to the previous status quo where hardly anyone even knew what narcissism was.

This climate, of course, was just perfect for narcissists and other manipulative personalities to operate in. Even now, though, narcissists are fully capable of advocating for themselves. There are many, many problems facing society today, but too little compassion for narcissists is most definitely not one of them.

 

[Jabberwocky]

There are many, many problems facing society today, but too little compassion for narcissists is most definitely not one of them.

They're not deserving of anything less than anyone else. Once the roles are reversed and the narcissist who shows us no compassion then gets no compassion back from us, it's really more of a dangerous situation than a helpful one unless we are exercising our right to remove ourselves from the situation.

 

[paltatomate]

unless we are exercising our right to remove ourselves from the situation.

Which means our right to remove ourselves from the situation or from the narcissist. If someone feels another person is not good to or for them (not meant as "of use") then they should keep their distance. Narcissist or whatever. It's self-preservation.
Now empathy is said to be the opposite of narcissism. I know a few people who are empaths and I find extremely hard to be around. I try to keep them at same arm-length distance as I do narcissists. But they deserve a chance like anybody else, and once you learn how the tick, it's not to hard to avoid or counteract the undesired side of them (both empaths and narcissists)

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yeah for sure I agree - anyone who has a stable sense of self, an open mind and willing to understand another's perspective, things like that, should be able to tolerate petty narcissism.

It can definitely come in extremes. But funny you mention, I too find being around those with less empathy easier. Less taxing emotionally.

 

[paltatomate]

i have to rationalize emotions in order to understand them, and if i'm around someone who sees the world in emotional terms, my poor brain has to go full power to get that person's point of view. it's easier for me to deal with the colder, more pragmatic way nacissists tick.

 

[Vastness]

They're not deserving of anything less than anyone else.

That might be technically true in an absolute human sense, in that none of us really choose who we are, but I think it's a meaningless and thoroughly unhelpful insight as far as anything that can actually be applied to human society.

Of course, everyone deserves compassion, in an entirely neutral philosophical sense. But because narcissism is a disorder primarily characterised by behaviours that negatively impact other people, there is a point at which narcissistic behaviours need to be resolutely condemned, and the people behind them considered to have lost certain priveleges as far as the people they interact with, or the ways in which they interact with them.

Because being an asshole is generally not a crime, only the most extreme examples of narcissistic abuse generally have any real consequence to the narcissist beyond the eventual loss of the unfortunate target for their own spectrum of problematic behaviours. Thus, to say "everyone is deserving of compassion", in this context - while it is technically true - is drawing a false and unhelpful equivalence which is in effect just discounting the significance of the sufferring experienced by those who are victimized by narcissists, in favour of defending a group of people who already have almost totally free reign TO victimize and exploit people in today's society. IMO.

Everyone has a right not to be exploited, emotionally abused or manipulated, too, but this is a right that is generally only respected by people without a significant volume of narcissistic traits.

 

[Jabberwocky]

@Vastness when the narcissist who shows us no compassion then gets no compassion back from us, it's really more of a dangerous situation than a helpful one.

Obviously we are not subject to abuse, I'm merely saying that usually fighting fire with fire isn't the solution. I never said that one has to ensure the abuse and is locked in to the interaction.

 

[ihermit]

... and made what few friends he had, through me. The people at college were smart enough to see through him; me I didn't care, so we got along, but there is potentially, looking back, real serious problems with narcissistic types, and many maybe be budding sociopaths. And even dangerous

It is known ... at least the knowledge is in text books ... that narcissists (most often identified as domestic violence perpetrators and sovereign citizens) have very little internal resources and feed off others. The classic example is the domestic violence perp who will, once his partner has given him the push, stalk him or her, doing things like poisoning their garden, killing their pets ... acting out violently toward the love objects of the partner or victim.
So J you did alright!

 

[ihermit]

And then I always just wonder if something is healthy. Thnx.


~~~~~~~


It seems like it's not about how we are doing but also the anticipation of . . . now what.

And it's good to be able to tap into being present.

We are all stuck here together to coexist. Lol.

Nice posts !!

I disagree with Madness that images (the root of imagination) inform our behaviour. But I don't want to argue that being true or not.

Rather I wonder regarding the above: what are we doing when we are anticipating?
Is the 'anticipation' a new image? Or is it pulled up from the archive of images contained in our memory that have informed us since birth?

And: where are we when we act to 'tap into the present'? Somewhere old and comfortable, perhaps?

Nice to meet you kiely

Do you dig it, Y'all?