Discussion Cocaine : decriminalization ? legalization? and if so how?

[skipjames]

Hellos,
see why coke is a bitch? it complicates even my beliefs on drug legalization. When it comes to cannabis : easy, let s go the Coffee Shop- Holland route. When it comes to heroin : Switzerland, way to go, pharma grade H to addicts, no fentanyl, no Ods, addicts able to live a functional productive life, no money to crime etc.
But when it comes to cocaine....what to do ? Everything is better than the current situation but it s hard for me to envision a policy that could work and that could be plausible to the general public.
The daily "state sponsored" fix will not do, coke is not H. Selling or prscribing pharma grade blow : doable ? plausible? how? in pharmacies ? or in "dispensaries " with health professionals able to tell and intervene when a customer has used a lil too much and act accordingly ? has been ever made a plausible account of cocaine legalization? Do u think it s viable?
I just know that coke is everywhere, coke related violence as well , the current situation it s clearly untenable but it s hard for me to see a viable alternative. Any ideas ?
cheers

 

[tryptakid]

Address the consequences of substance use, and the contributing factors to problematic substance use. Allow people to make their own choices.

Here's your cocaine solution - create a not-for-profit entity that grows coca, processes it safely into cocaine, and distributes to dispensaries. Regulate pricing of drugs where they are dispensed to individuals who sign up for the programs for a nominal fee - cost to produce and deliver to you. If need be, cover some of that cost.

You can do this with all major drugs that have no specific medical use.

Interestingly, cocaine DOES have medical use (eye surgery) however none of the cocaine on available is diverted from legitimate pharma supplies.

 

[ions]

If you wanna stimulate the economy, put cocaine on the market.

 

[tryptakid]

We've essentially done the same thing by legalizing gambling in many states. I really don't want to live through whatever CNN starts calling "The Cocaine Bubble".

 

[cdin]

Hellos,
see why coke is a bitch? it complicates even my beliefs on drug legalization. When it comes to cannabis : easy, let s go the Coffee Shop- Holland route. When it comes to heroin : Switzerland, way to go, pharma grade H to addicts, no fentanyl, no Ods, addicts able to live a functional productive life, no money to crime etc.
But when it comes to cocaine....what to do ? Everything is better than the current situation but it s hard for me to envision a policy that could work and that could be plausible to the general public.
The daily "state sponsored" fix will not do, coke is not H. Selling or prscribing pharma grade blow : doable ? plausible? how? in pharmacies ? or in "dispensaries " with health professionals able to tell and intervene when a customer has used a lil too much and act accordingly ? has been ever made a plausible account of cocaine legalization? Do u think it s viable?
I just know that coke is everywhere, coke related violence as well , the current situation it s clearly untenable but it s hard for me to see a viable alternative. Any ideas ?
cheers

i argue for a graduated licensing system. like drivers licenses. "need your class C drug license to buy this 8-ball, sir"

 

[JohnnyVodka]

It's a tricky one. When mephedrone (a comparable addictive stimulant) was 'legal', I was using it every weekend, and I wasn't the only one... Much as I hated the ban at the time, I must admit it did make me reconsider my use and I've not actually had any for 2.5 years, which isn't a bad thing.

That said, just about anyone who wants coke can get it anyway, so the state might as well tax it and claim some money for the NHS (in the UK).

 

[foodcrisis]

i argue for a graduated licensing system. like drivers licenses. "need your class C drug license to buy this 8-ball, sir"

i actually like the idea of talking to a doctor and only being able to get a certain amount... i wouldn't mind being able to get like a half gram or so from a dispensary or pharmacy every month or so... i do some abstract drawings and i like how being stimulated makes them come out... i have some i've done on acid that i find to be better than anything that i can recreate again... i'd like a couple hours a month with some coke to try to do these drawings again... it would be really entertaining to me. i feel like art is cool with drugs, cause it gives souvenirs a person can keep when they're sober.... i'm pretty sure even if coke were cheap, i wouldn't even use much more than that. i'd rather spend my money on weed for the most part. i don't really find coke to be that addictive, but something with it in my area seemed like it was cut with all different stuff from everybody that i would get it from, that really turned me off from it (maybe this is why i never got addicted). if i don't feel safe i usually stay away from drugs, but i'd prob be good if it were legal at this point in my life... i could definitely see it being popular with young healthy people to snort a ton of coke more than necessary "hey i'm healthy why not"... i dunno how good that would be. just a waste of money and space to grow stuff really. i guess people do that illegally anyways, but from what i understand more people smoke weed now that it's legal.

i might not even need a full half gram cause i def had coke that was cut. a gram is a lot for me even cut. i have no idea of the quality of stuff i used to get.. got me pretty high a couple of the times i tried it though. i wish i had a picture of the painting i did with coke as a teen, but i put it in a fire hoping it would come back to me as HPPD. it was really cool, my friend was impressed by it as it was better than a lot of my first works. he enthusiastically said i should get it as a tattoo.

i definitely think it'd be good to prescribe drugs to artists if they want them. i don't think people are gonna find much reason for coke medically other than like eye surgery or whatever. i noticed a lot of people just kind of sit around strung out on coke. kind of a weird thing. i get it though. it feels great. coke makes people rock out musically sometimes too. legalize the coke CHRISTMAS SNOW... lol

 

[tryptakid]

I think we should work to increase the relationship drug users have with trusting their care providers.

I am very open with my patients about who I am and what I'm about - I am never going to tell someone not to use drugs, , but I will note if their use is having adverse impacts on things that they value. That frees up the trusting bond in our relationship to be used collaboratively, something I believe is vital to psychotherapy. Most drug users worry about the stigma that sharing a desire to alter consciousness with a provider carries. There are real reasons for this, as people can have their agency taken away, have treatment plans withheld, and create oppositionality in the relationship dynamic. This could all be avoided if we worked collectively towards these conversations being more open and honest. All I can do is impact change in the sphere I inhabit, so I plant seeds of change wherever I can.

 

[skipjames]

Here's your cocaine solution - create a not-for-profit entity that grows coca, processes it safely into cocaine, and distributes to dispensaries. Regulate pricing of drugs where they are dispensed to individuals who sign up for the programs for a nominal fee - cost to produce and deliver to you. If need be, cover some of that cost.

That s interesting, thank you. I wonder how to deal with the cartels in Bolivia-Perú-Colombia, will they agree to sell coca leaves only? maybe a UN sponsored truce with conditions ( you sell only to approved companies-treat your employers right- don t use violence) will do?

i argue for a graduated licensing system. like drivers licenses. "need your class C drug license to buy this 8-ball, sir

maybe more like the license to carry a gun, if you have an histiry of mental illness-violence etc then you can t get your license. I see your point, my worry is that we would still have a flourishing black market for the more problematic users.

It's a tricky one.

Tricky indeed. Availability + affordability play an important role in my use of blow, if I was not living in Brazil I ld probably use way less coke or no coke at all. But I would not smoke weed-use ketamine-MDMA or any other drug but coke and opioids anyway, even if they were legal, and as you say coke is everywhere and here to stay, only with the money me and my wife have spent on blow we could have built a school, imagine if all the money spent in coke was used for improving public health or education....

i wouldn't mind being able to get like a half gram or so from a dispensary or pharmacy every month or so

and that s a good way of using blow, once in a blue moon and for artistic purposes. Alas, many coke heads would probably take their legal half gram and then call their dealer....

but I will note if their use is having adverse impacts on things that they value.

Indeed, non problematic users should be left alone, we are allowed, maybe we even have a moral duty, to intervene only when someone is harming himself or could harm others.

 

[skipjames]

I think we should work to increase the relationship drug users have with trusting their care providers.

I am very open with my patients about who I am and what I'm about - I am never going to tell someone not to use drugs, , but I will note if their use is having adverse impacts on things that they value. That frees up the trusting bond in our relationship to be used collaboratively, something I believe is vital to psychotherapy. Most drug users worry about the stigma that sharing a desire to alter consciousness with a provider carries. There are real reasons for this, as people can have their agency taken away, have treatment plans withheld, and create oppositionality in the relationship dynamic. This could all be avoided if we worked collectively towards these conversations being more open and honest. All I can do is impact change in the sphere I inhabit, so I plant seeds of change wherever I can.

Kudos and I agree, I really do wonder how someone who is or has been an addict could be judgemental, with all the crazy shit we have done or witnessed we should be way more understanding of other´s people flaws.
People do indeed open up when they feel they can tell you almost anything, I m glad that many friends- acquaintenances- students of mine feel that way.
Still, I ve noticed that almost any social group has its totally arbitrary do and do nots. Italy : weed opium and cocaine are pefectly fine, but if you do smack you are the lowest of the lows. Brazil : just today I was having a beer with a post grad student of mine and two of her friends, they are all psychologists btw, and they were smoking weed, they use MDMA and shrooms, were trying to convince me to do Ayahuasca etc...but when I ve casually mentioned "cocaine", oh the horror! the outrage!
...and these are the people supposed to fix my head huh?

 

[tryptakid]

Kudos and I agree, I really do wonder how someone who is or has been an addict could be judgemental, with all the crazy shit we have done or witnessed we should be way more understanding of other´s people flaws.
People do indeed open up when they feel they can tell you almost anything, I m glad that many friends- acquaintenances- students of mine feel that way.
Still, I ve noticed that almost any social group has its totally arbitrary do and do nots. Italy : weed opium and cocaine are pefectly fine, but if you do smack you are the lowest of the lows. Brazil : just today I was having a beer with a post grad student of mine and two of her friends, they are all psychologists btw, and they were smoking weed, they use MDMA and shrooms, were trying to convince me to do Ayahuasca etc...but when I ve casually mentioned "cocaine", oh the horror! the outrage!
...and these are the people supposed to fix my head huh?

It's interesting - I find that the professional psychotherapy professions (clinical social work, Psychologists, Psychiatrists) can be very open minded/progressive minded in some ways, while also allowing certain stigmatized ideas/beliefs to go unchecked. If you're the person that often helps other people check for their own biases/stigmas, and you're trained in how to go about doing that, it ultimately falls on the individual practitioner to seek support in ensuring that we are inspecting our own stigmas/biases. I realized how easy it was to hide behind the veneer of professional altruism a few years ago during an increased time of racial tension in the US as well as when reconnecting with an old friend who had begun to transition from Male to Female. I recall in both situations realizing at a point that I could often use my role as a therapist to hide my own biases/shortcomings/uncertainties, and I was trained in communication to a degree that I could socially navigate away from difficult conversations.

I chose, instead, to inspect those biases and I'm glad for it, but I do notice a pattern amongst professional contacts who can hold unexpectedly problematic views about the people we serve. I am grateful for my experiences with my own addiction having humbled me to never see the people I work at anything besides "just another human trying to figure this shit out". Even a few years ago, it would have been inappropriate for me to even mention my own experience as an addict - nondisclosure was considered the norm at many agencies. I've been pretty upfront since coming into this work that I had to bring that part of myself along with me, as it's important in how I connect with other people who are struggling.

 

[garygroundwork]

can't see why an adult should be labelled a criminal and get a criminal record for choosing to put powder in their own nostril.

Just make them aware of what damage may come with it. Then let them choose. It's their fkn body and life.

 

[skipjames]

It's interesting - I find that the professional psychotherapy professions (clinical social work, Psychologists, Psychiatrists) can be very open minded/progressive minded in some ways, while also allowing certain stigmatized ideas/beliefs to go unchecked. If you're the person that often helps other people check for their own biases/stigmas, and you're trained in how to go about doing that, it ultimately falls on the individual practitioner to seek support in ensuring that we are inspecting our own stigmas/biases. I realized how easy it was to hide behind the veneer of professional altruism a few years ago during an increased time of racial tension in the US as well as when reconnecting with an old friend who had begun to transition from Male to Female. I recall in both situations realizing at a point that I could often use my role as a therapist to hide my own biases/shortcomings/uncertainties, and I was trained in communication to a degree that I could socially navigate away from difficult conversations.

I chose, instead, to inspect those biases and I'm glad for it, but I do notice a pattern amongst professional contacts who can hold unexpectedly problematic views about the people we serve. I am grateful for my experiences with my own addiction having humbled me to never see the people I work at anything besides "just another human trying to figure this shit out". Even a few years ago, it would have been inappropriate for me to even mention my own experience as an addict - nondisclosure was considered the norm at many agencies. I've been pretty upfront since coming into this work that I had to bring that part of myself along with me, as it's important in how I connect with other people who are struggling.

A colleague of mine ( I teach Philosophy) has recently started studying psychology as well, as we are faculty we get a huge discount from our Uni and I m toying with the idea of doing the same. Thing is, I ve enough on my plate, teaching, doing research, a couple of addictions....plus down here Psychology = Freud, Lacan and other continental stuff that to me are less scientific than voodoo....

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

Hellos,
see why coke is a bitch? it complicates even my beliefs on drug legalization. When it comes to cannabis : easy, let s go the Coffee Shop- Holland route. When it comes to heroin : Switzerland, way to go, pharma grade H to addicts, no fentanyl, no Ods, addicts able to live a functional productive life, no money to crime etc.
But when it comes to cocaine....what to do ? Everything is better than the current situation but it s hard for me to envision a policy that could work and that could be plausible to the general public.
The daily "state sponsored" fix will not do, coke is not H. Selling or prscribing pharma grade blow : doable ? plausible? how? in pharmacies ? or in "dispensaries " with health professionals able to tell and intervene when a customer has used a lil too much and act accordingly ? has been ever made a plausible account of cocaine legalization? Do u think it s viable?
I just know that coke is everywhere, coke related violence as well , the current situation it s clearly untenable but it s hard for me to see a viable alternative. Any ideas ?
cheers

Accessible via specialized drug shops. State‐regulated production and distribution. Strict quality control. No advertising. No 'free market' sale. The staff would have training comparable to a pharmacist and able to advise you on possible health risks, contra‐indications with regards to any prescription medication and safe dosage. You would be strongly advised against taking it if you were suffering from heart problems or seizure disorders.

PS let's face it, people WILL take this stuff and anyone who truly wants it can get it. Best thing to do is make sure it's sold at licensed premises, produced with strict regulations and controls, free from contaminants and of consistent purity.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

PSPS consider also that around 100 years ago before prohibition, cocaine could be legally obtained in pharmacies. And it wasn't like everybody was a cocaine addict back then.

It's not availability that makes an addict; otherwise I'd be a chain smoker. Statistical data also pretty consistently shows that illegality doesn't reduce demand and decriminalization doesn't significantly increase it.

 

[skipjames]

otherwise I'd be a chain smoke

and I ll be an alcoholic, while I ld rather drink piss than drink beer for instance ( I only drink mojitos and ony when I m opioid free, which is not that common these days). By the way I ve read something about the prohibition of cocaine in the US, as usual there was a lot of moral panic and racism and fake news involved, like "it s scientifically proved that if a black man snorts cocaine he will kill and rape any white person on sight", " black men under the effects of cocaine get all kinds of crazy ideas, like that they have right" etc. More or less what happned with opium , the drug of the evil chinaman corruptor of our pure white ladies".
Down here in Brazil as it was kinda difficult to stop people for being black, everything remotely related to black culture was considered a crime, from weed to capoeira....and on and on it goes.

You know which one of my addictions will suely killed me and I m totally unable to control???Cigarettes. The shittiest, smelliest, ugliest and pointless addiction of mine, and the only tht s legal

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

and I ll be an alcoholic, while I ld rather drink piss than drink beer for instance ( I only drink mojitos and ony when I m opioid free, which is not that common these days). By the way I ve read something about the prohibition of cocaine in the US, as usual there was a lot of moral panic and racism and fake news involved, like "it s scientifically proved that if a black man snorts cocaine he will kill and rape any white person on sight", " black men under the effects of cocaine get all kinds of crazy ideas, like that they have right" etc. More or less what happned with opium , the drug of the evil chinaman corruptor of our pure white ladies".
Down here in Brazil as it was kinda difficult to stop people for being black, everything remotely related to black culture was considered a crime, from weed to capoeira....and on and on it goes.

You know which one of my addictions will suely killed me and I m totally unable to control???Cigarettes. The shittiest, smelliest, ugliest and pointless addiction of mine, and the only tht s legal

...yah that's how it goes in general.

If I had a pound for every junkie & alkie who told me they'd quit drink / heroin successfully but JUST couldn't lay off the cancer sticks....

 

[skipjames]

can't see why an adult should be labelled a criminal and get a criminal record for choosing to put powder in their own nostril.

that s for sure. I just think that decriminalization alone is not enough, as long as the drug money goes to the cartels, there are no policies to take care of the addicts etc

 

[skipjames]

If I had a pound for every junkie & alkie who told me they'd quit drink / heroin successfully but JUST couldn't lay off the cancer sticks....

thing is, cigs feel amazing with every drug I enjoy, coke, H, oxys, even booze when I feel like having an hungover and remember why alcohol is shit. Yeah, sex maybe is enjoyable even without smoking a cig after, but I m simply not ready to give up completely drugs yet, at most I m not gonna use blow at home because my lovely Brazilian wife is loosin it due to the thing, but as long as they help me writing-working-playing and singing, an as long as I ive in a country where possession is a crime only if u don t have money to bribe the police, I can t see the problem...

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

my lovely Brazilian wife

You're involved with a Brazilian drug addict and were willing to move country for her - ?

I'm kinda in the reverse situation. My Brazilian ex-cop lover who hates drug users decided to put up with the Northern European climate for my sake. XD