But that's because 200mg of MDMA is 2x the normal dose while 200mg of methamphetamine is 10-15x the normal dose. You don't see the issue with comparing them like that? It just doesn't make sense from a pharmacological point of view
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MDMA &
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Tried MDMA for the first time and fell in love.
- Thread starter JavacLang
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The normal dose recreationally of methamphetamine is half a point or 50 mg
90% of the people don't have the equipment to actually measure 12 and 1/2 to 20 mg accurately.
So what you're saying is that 2x the normal methamphetamine dose *is* as forgiving as 2x the normal MDMA dose?
Pwychonautwiki lists 50mg methamphetamine under strong-heavy depending on roa and common is 10-20mg
Ability to measure something doesn't change the ed50 of a substance. I'm surprised you're making these assertions, I've seen your posts and you seem to have a reasonable amount of pharmacology knowledge
No I'm saying MDMA is more forgiving than methamphetamine ever will be.
You've never seen an MDMA e-tard walking around in the middle of the street and close they've had on for the last 2 weeks. Smelling like a garbage truck with that animals in it. Ranting and raving about how They are God.
I can't believe you're actually trying to argue that methamphetamine isn't way less forgiving than MDMA.
Fact, we actually have evidence of neurotoxicity against dopamine, receptors and neurons with respect to methamphetamine abuse.
There is no actual evidence in humans that MDMA causes any neurotoxic damage to axons or neurons. They're speculation based on animal studies but no real human evidence.
I'm talking about comparisons of dose response relationships and AFAIK there is no neurotoxicity from single doses at the ED50 of either substance
You can't just create a hypothetical situation where you're comparing two different multiples of the ED50 for two different drugs, that isn't even close to scientifically rigorous
You can't just create a hypothetical situation where you're comparing two different multiples of the ED50 for two different drugs, that isn't even close to scientifically rigorous
Sure, I can.
And the dose response curve of methamphetamine is way worse than MDMA.
The therapeutic range of MDMA is from 0.5 mg per kilogram to 1.6 mg per kilogram.
The therapeutic range of methamphetamine in children is 0.1 to 0.25(max) and roughly the same for adults.
Right so 200mg MDMA is just above the therapeutic range for the max for a 100kg person while 200mg methamphetamine is nearly 10x the max. That means a more apt comparison would be 200mg MDMA to 35mg methamphetamine because you're dealing with the same approximate multiple
That's why you don't use substances with shitty therapeutic dose curves.
You can't compare it like that.
More potent substances with a lower therapeutic index are crap.
Just like fentanyl is not as forgiving as morphine.
Carfentanil is not as forgiving as fentanyl.
We're not actually playing this game, are we?
And you completely ignore the fact that MDMA has what's called tachyphilaxis with dysphoria.
Methamphetamine doesn't present tachyphilaxis or dysphoria to users. You can keep using as many days in a row you want. And when you take another bump that's not an hour extension, That's 6 to 12 hours of an extension.
MDMA is extremely difficult to smoke because the heat actually causes the molecule to dissociate and snorting MDMA destroys your sinuses after just one or two episodes.
The only people that I've heard banging MDMA are people that were already banging meth or heroin and from everything I've heard it's actually a shitty high.
So that's why methamphetamine is way less forgiving than MDMA.
Its not about using or not using the substance, its about making a comparison that stands up to rigorous examination
Fentanyl actually has a wider TI than morphine
"Of the available opioids, fentanyl has a higher therapeutic index than morphine (400 vs 70)"
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Fentanyl actually has a wider TI than morphine
"Of the available opioids, fentanyl has a higher therapeutic index than morphine (400 vs 70)"
Anesthesia for the 21st century - PMC
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Yes, in the comparison that stands up to rigorous analysis and has for two decades is that MDMA is much more forgiving, has no direct evidence of neurotoxicity at recreational doses, and doesn't commonly result in addiction.Its not about using or not using the substance, its about making a comparison that stands up to rigorous examination
Fentanyl actually has a wider TI than morphine
"Of the available opioids, fentanyl has a higher therapeutic index than morphine (400 vs 70)"
Anesthesia for the 21st century - PMC
Methamphetamine has direct evidence of neurotoxicity in humans at recreational doses (the argument that the recreational doses are artificially high with respect to methamphetamine versus MDMA is a result of dose escalation due to the addictive qualities and compulsive redosing caused by methamphetamine that doesn't exist with MDMA) and commonly results in addiction.
Not with respect to the way people dose in the real world versus The morphine drip and a fentanyl patch.Fentanyl actually has a wider TI than morphine
"Of the available opioids, fentanyl has a higher therapeutic index than morphine (400 vs 70)"
Anesthesia for the 21st century - PMC
If the therapeutic index of fentanyl was that high in the real world we wouldn't have the overdose deaths that we do.
Synthetic opiates (which means fentanyl) are responsible for 80% of the opiate overdose deaths in the United States.
All prescription opioids in the US resulted in less than 20,000 deaths in 2021. Fentanyl was responsible for ~80,000 deaths in 2021.
nida.nih.gov
All prescription opioids in the US resulted in less than 20,000 deaths in 2021. Fentanyl was responsible for ~80,000 deaths in 2021.
Drug Overdose Death Rates | National Institute on Drug Abuse
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention collects information on deaths involving many commonly used drugs
If fentanyl was available in known concentrations from a reputable source, we wouldn't have so many overdose deaths. Thankfully in the field of pharmacology we don't compare the action of drugs based on how disreputable black market sources do things but rather on pure substances used in a known and measurable fashion so my point still stands.