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Stimulants Caffeine, Safe but counter-productive stimulant?

Neuroprotection said:
Yes, actually I’m ethnically from Yemen where the stuff is really popular. I’m going to try it once I’ve been off caffeine for a month or more. however, I think it’s really hard for a first time user to notice anything and the method of consumption is time-consuming. I would actually like to try chewing Coca, i’ve heard good things about that.
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Yeah I've never had the opportunity to chew it myself, but I often thought the 'difficulty' involved in consuming it would actually turn out to be a positive - ie: unlikely to chew too much, plus the the chewing is kinda like a fidgetspinner for the ADHD brain. Same with Coca leaves I guess. Some say chewing fresh yerba mate leaves has a similar effect but given its less potent stimulants that seems, to me, less likely to be effective.
 
CFC said:
Yeah I've never had the opportunity to chew it myself, but I often thought the 'difficulty' involved in consuming it would actually turn out to be a positive - ie: unlikely to chew too much, plus the the chewing is kinda like a fidgetspinner for the ADHD brain. Same with Coca leaves I guess. Some say chewing fresh yerba mate leaves has a similar effect but given its less potent stimulants that seems, to me, less likely to be effective.
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Very good point about the chewing. actually, if I’ve understood the research correctly, the need to chew the leaves as well as the presence of complex tannins and flavonoids prevents excessive cathinone from entering the system at once. this is why you can’t really get high on khat, at least not in the traditional sense. apparently, the UN classifies it as much less addictive than tobacco. Even people who are heavily dependent on it, are only so because of extreme boredom and lack of direction in life that comes with living in poverty stricken countries.
I would be really interested to know the half life of pure cathinone as well as its potency, in comparison to pure dextroamphetamine.
 
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maybe I’m looking too deeply into this, but I wonder if caffeine would have been better used as an occasional drug by the majority of the population and chronically only in certain groups as a medicine.
For all its flaws, I think caffeine can do an excellent job under certain circumstances. for example, it helps a lot when I’m feeling ill. as I said previously, it was also really nice when I was out of studying and employment for over 2 years. I theorise that when not forcing my brain to work, caffeine could provide The stimulation the human brain craves. yes, it’s hard to believe, but apparently our brains benefit from being academically challenged, even if we absolutely hate it. I guess it’s like exercise. additionally, when I wasn’t working, I didn’t recognise that jumpy/scatterbrained and agitated energy that caffeine brought about since I didn’t really have to use my brain for much.
This is why, despite planning to quit caffeine for most of my working life, if I’m ever able to retire and never have to work again, I will gladly re-introduce it.
 
Neuroprotection said:
It is very easy to find in countries like Ethiopia, Somalia and Yemen. Khat has been banned in most western countries and if you live in one of them, that’s probably why you can’t find it.
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Yeah, I won't be traveling to those countries anytime soon, if ever lol. But I'd give it a shot if it was ever around my area (the Northeast U.S.).
 
Neuroprotection said:
Very good point about the chewing. actually, if I’ve understood the research correctly, the need to chew the leaves as well as the presence of complex tannins and flavonoids prevents excessive cathinone from entering the system at once. this is why you can’t really get high on khat, at least not in the traditional sense. apparently, the UN classifies it as much less addictive than tobacco. Even people who are heavily dependent on it, are only so because of extreme boredom and lack of direction in life that comes with living in poverty stricken countries.
I would be really interested to know the half life of pure cathinone as well as its potency, in comparison to pure dextroamphetamine.
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If it's so mild i don't understand why it's illegal. Then again, I'm for all drugs being legal except MAYBE Fentanyl. Drug laws never have made sense and never will.
 
Mycophile said:
If it's so mild i don't understand why it's illegal. Then again, I'm for all drugs being legal except MAYBE Fentanyl. Drug laws never have made sense and never will.
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There are a few reasons for it being illegal. The main one I think is simply because of the active compound being an amphetamine analog with an identical mechanism of action to dextroamphetamine. there was probably concern that people may begin processing it to extract and concentrate the cathinone, Something which apparently began to occur in Israel.
Another reason was community pressure. some members of the Somalian and Ethiopian diaspora in the UK lobbied the government to ban khat since they felt it was wasting the time of their youth and sustaining cycles of poverty.
In my personal opinion, khat is one of those drugs that works to reinforce whatever individual and collective behaviours one is regularly engaging in.
 
Just found this video on alternatives to caffeine, The first one suggested is ephedrine which I find very interesting, since I found it almost impossible to find peoples experiences of ephedrine without caffeine.






What the guy in the video says about caffeine being detrimental rather than beneficial for academic studying is interesting. he said that ephedrine alone really helped him focus but he also claimed that it was less likely to keep him up at night than caffeine.
Does anyone know what the half-life of ephedrine is? more importantly, could anyone who has taken it give an approximate duration of action.
I want to try ephedrine for the first time once i’ve been free of caffeine for at least a few months. not planning to use ephedrine often, I guess that would be counter-productive and full of side-effects. rather, it’s just a case of curiosity since I’ve heard about ephedrine when I was a kid and have always wanted to try it.
What I’ve never wanted to try is the combination of ephedrine with caffeine which sounds like quite a nasty and harsh combination.
 
Neuroprotection said:
as the most popular psychoactive drug in the world, it’s easy to forget that caffeine is a potent drug. of course, it is much safer and less addictive than many other psychoactive drugs, but many say it’s also the least useful for productivity and focus.
Those who benefited from quitting it claim to have discovered that caffeine was actually counter-productive because it increased anxiety and created an agitated energy which could put them off achieving their goals and just generally increasing stress levels.
I wonder if any of you have quit caffeine and if so, what were the benefits?
I would be especially interested to know if quitting caffeine affected your experience with other drugs. i’m thinking of quitting caffeine myself at some point, just need to wait until conditions are right and I have enough time to cope with withdrawals.
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Besides pure Caffein and Coffee. Which are shit.

Most other Caffeine containing fruits, leaves and nuts are imo quite usefull energizer's especially Guarana. But Mate also has a special place just by its taste. Otherwise white Tea is a great source. Cola nut's are a bit weird they look like organ's and are very astringent and particular in taste.
 
Neuroprotection said:
There are a few reasons for it being illegal. The main one I think is simply because of the active compound being an amphetamine analog with an identical mechanism of action to dextroamphetamine. there was probably concern that people may begin processing it to extract and concentrate the cathinone, Something which apparently began to occur in Israel.
Another reason was community pressure. some members of the Somalian and Ethiopian diaspora in the UK lobbied the government to ban khat since they felt it was wasting the time of their youth and sustaining cycles of poverty.
In my personal opinion, khat is one of those drugs that works to reinforce whatever individual and collective behaviours one is regularly engaging in.
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In my opinion none of those are good reasons, but I'm for all drugs be legal except MAYBE Fentanyl.
 
Neuroprotection said:
Just found this video on alternatives to caffeine, The first one suggested is ephedrine which I find very interesting, since I found it almost impossible to find peoples experiences of ephedrine without caffeine.






What the guy in the video says about caffeine being detrimental rather than beneficial for academic studying is interesting. he said that ephedrine alone really helped him focus but he also claimed that it was less likely to keep him up at night than caffeine.
Does anyone know what the half-life of ephedrine is? more importantly, could anyone who has taken it give an approximate duration of action.
I want to try ephedrine for the first time once i’ve been free of caffeine for at least a few months. not planning to use ephedrine often, I guess that would be counter-productive and full of side-effects. rather, it’s just a case of curiosity since I’ve heard about ephedrine when I was a kid and have always wanted to try it.
What I’ve never wanted to try is the combination of ephedrine with caffeine which sounds like quite a nasty and harsh combination.
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I don't know about ephedrine. To be honest, I'm not sure whether or not I've ever taken it. I've taken Psuedo-ephedrine and it's not so great IMO. I've also heard some not so great things about Ephedrine, that it's just very racy-feeling. I actually may have taken it before and not liked it, but I'm not sure I remember clearly. I'd give it a 2nd shot I guess.

I tried both Methyllibrine (Dynamine) and Theacrine (Teacrine). Methyllibrine I felt literally noting. Theacrine I thought I MIGHT have felt a little something but I can't be sure. Both are super weak but I'll try them both again. However, there was no crash to either like he mentioned. There wasn't enough of a feeling I don't think for a crash. Disappointing so far.

I can't take Yohimbe because it's an MAOI and I'm on Prozac, but I did once try to trip on it like 20+ years ago because I didn't know that. I remember getting very speedy in an uncomfortable way and getting dilated pupils. I can't try it again, but if you aren't on an SSRI you can give it a shot.

I once tried Phenylpiracetam and didn't feel much but now I want to give it another shot. But L-Tyrosine is the one he mentioned that I am now interested in because I've never tried it before. Sounds promising. Of course, there's also Adrafinil and Modafinil. I've never tried Modafinil. I tried Adrafinil once or twice and felt it was a bit uncomfortable but I had drank coffee also and that was a long time ago. I also think that's worth a 2nd shot.
 
Mycophile said:
I don't know about ephedrine. To be honest, I'm not sure whether or not I've ever taken it. I've taken Psuedo-ephedrine and it's not so great IMO. I've also heard some not so great things about Ephedrine, that it's just very racy-feeling. I actually may have taken it before and not liked it, but I'm not sure I remember clearly. I'd give it a 2nd shot I guess.

I tried both Methyllibrine (Dynamine) and Theacrine (Teacrine). Methyllibrine I felt literally noting. Theacrine I thought I MIGHT have felt a little something but I can't be sure. Both are super weak but I'll try them both again. However, there was no crash to either like he mentioned. There wasn't enough of a feeling I don't think for a crash. Disappointing so far.

I can't take Yohimbe because it's an MAOI and I'm on Prozac, but I did once try to trip on it like 20+ years ago because I didn't know that. I remember getting very speedy in an uncomfortable way and getting dilated pupils. I can't try it again, but if you aren't on an SSRI you can give it a shot.

I once tried Phenylpiracetam and didn't feel much but now I want to give it another shot. But L-Tyrosine is the one he mentioned that I am now interested in because I've never tried it before. Sounds promising. Of course, there's also Adrafinil and Modafinil. I've never tried Modafinil. I tried Adrafinil once or twice and felt it was a bit uncomfortable but I had drank coffee also and that was a long time ago. I also think that's worth a 2nd shot.
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Thanks for sharing that. just to let you know, pseudoephedrine has less bioavailability in the CNS and is thought to produce more peripheral side-effects.
In regards to ephedrine, it can certainly produce an uncomfortable racing feeling, but such side-effects are much more likely when it is combined with caffeine. that is why I absolutely insist on having no caffeine whatsoever in my system before I try any other stimulant or Nootropics.
Modafinil can cause anxiety and some people, but again, this is much more likely if you take it with caffeine. One of the ways that modafinil may work is to very slightly reduce GABA and increase glutamate signalling in certain areas of the brain. this slightly increased neuron excitability could enhance memory and cognition/processing. however, there’s a fine line and the addition of caffeine probably leads to excessive excitability, destabilisation of brain networks and decreased cognitive performance.
My best advice regarding xanthine stimulants (caffeine, theophylline, theobromine, theacrine, paraxanthine and methylliberine) would be to only ever use them alone. never combine them with other classes of stimulants as at the very least, it increases the risk of uncomfortable side-effects and at worst could increase risk of death or exacerbate mental illness.
All the stimulant products you recently ordered, seem to be adenosine antagonists. that’s fine, but if you do choose to try a traditional dopaminergic stimulant like amphetamine/methylphenidate, ephedrine or even modafinil, it’s best to be clear of all adenosine antagonist for at least a week.
People with ADHD on Reddit reported that their doctors advise them to completely get off caffeine before starting an amphetamine type medication. some believe this is because of caffeine potentiating amphetamine, thus increasing risk of cardiovascular and mental side-effects. in reality, the main reason is more interesting. Some doctors feel that caffeine prevents amphetamine from increasing focus and causes it to behave as a cognitive disruptor.
Additionally, ADHD patients who tested this out say they definitely noticed That caffeine prevented their medication from being effective and actually made them perform worse than if they had simply taken nothing.
 
emkee_reinvented said:
Besides pure Caffein and Coffee. Which are shit.

Most other Caffeine containing fruits, leaves and nuts are imo quite usefull energizer's especially Guarana. But Mate also has a special place just by its taste. Otherwise white Tea is a great source. Cola nut's are a bit weird they look like organ's and are very astringent and particular in taste.
Click to expand...


That’s probably because plant sources of caffeine other than coffee contain very high levels of vitamins and nutrients making them somewhat similar to popular Energy drinks.
 
Neuroprotection said:
Thanks for sharing that. just to let you know, pseudoephedrine has less bioavailability in the CNS and is thought to produce more peripheral side-effects.
In regards to ephedrine, it can certainly produce an uncomfortable racing feeling, but such side-effects are much more likely when it is combined with caffeine. that is why I absolutely insist on having no caffeine whatsoever in my system before I try any other stimulant or Nootropics.
Modafinil can cause anxiety and some people, but again, this is much more likely if you take it with caffeine. One of the ways that modafinil may work is to very slightly reduce GABA and increase glutamate signalling in certain areas of the brain. this slightly increased neuron excitability could enhance memory and cognition/processing. however, there’s a fine line and the addition of caffeine probably leads to excessive excitability, destabilisation of brain networks and decreased cognitive performance.
My best advice regarding xanthine stimulants (caffeine, theophylline, theobromine, theacrine, paraxanthine and methylliberine) would be to only ever use them alone. never combine them with other classes of stimulants as at the very least, it increases the risk of uncomfortable side-effects and at worst could increase risk of death or exacerbate mental illness.
All the stimulant products you recently ordered, seem to be adenosine antagonists. that’s fine, but if you do choose to try a traditional dopaminergic stimulant like amphetamine/methylphenidate, ephedrine or even modafinil, it’s best to be clear of all adenosine antagonist for at least a week.
People with ADHD on Reddit reported that their doctors advise them to completely get off caffeine before starting an amphetamine type medication. some believe this is because of caffeine potentiating amphetamine, thus increasing risk of cardiovascular and mental side-effects. in reality, the main reason is more interesting. Some doctors feel that caffeine prevents amphetamine from increasing focus and causes it to behave as a cognitive disruptor.
Additionally, ADHD patients who tested this out say they definitely noticed That caffeine prevented their medication from being effective and actually made them perform worse than if they had simply taken nothing.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I used to take Dexedrine and sometimes Adderall or Vyvanse, mostly for recreational effects, and I did always combine it with caffeine. Sometimes I enjoyed the experience and other times I got anxious and didn't. It's not a very smart thing to do, but I don't think you are risking death by taking moderate dose Dexedrine/Adderal with a little caffeine, but I don't plan on taking any amphetamines in the near future.

Doesn't caffeine also reduce GABA? What does it mean to "increase glutamate signalling"? And what do you think the interplay, chemically speaking, would be between the high doses of caffeine and Klonopin I used to take?

I mean NOW I am off caffeine (I hope it lasts) and have reduced my Klonopin and I feel better, but my old psychiatrist used to say that drinking all that caffeine counteracted the anxiety reducing effects of Klonopin. Of course he was correct, and had I never gotten into drinking so much coffee I probably never would have needed Klonopin. My guess is that Klonopin increases GABA and caffeine decreases it, so they are just counteracting eachother, but it was always necessary for me to feel awake on larger doses of Klonopin.
 
I don't know if anyone in this thread drinks, but I do (haven't been lately) and a while ago I posted a thread/poll asking if anyone who drinks alcohol can deal with hangovers without caffeine and no one said they could LOL.

I'm still wondering if there's any alternative stimulant (or any drug period) that could help with hangovers, and/or if anyone ever gets used to dealing with hangovers without anything. I mean, Kratom does to some extent, but it doesn't always work. When it does it's perfect. But could any of these other stimulants, maybe combined with something else, be helpful for hangovers? Cause I like that I'm not drinking caffeine, but I seriously don't want to quit alcohol forever.
 
I'm super-sensitive to stimulants so even coffee makes me feel jittery after more than one cup. Which is annoying because I actually really like the taste (sweetened and with lots of milk though). But if I have more than one cup I start feeling restless and kind of unwell in myself and even slightly nauseous. So I literally just drink it now and again for the pleasure of the taste.

If I want the caffeine effects I use capsules. I find these increase the efficiency of my work-outs, and the 'nervous energy' feeling that I find actively unpleasant just gets subsumed in the physical activity.
 
Mycophile said:
I don't know if anyone in this thread drinks, but I do (haven't been lately) and a while ago I posted a thread/poll asking if anyone who drinks alcohol can deal with hangovers without caffeine and no one said they could LOL.
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Honestly I don't understand how anyone deals with a hangover WITH caffeine. If I'm already feeling ill then irritating my stomach even more with coffee is just going to make sure I throw up. What I drink for a hangover is plain water and plenty of it, and also some with electrolyte powder mixed in since alcohol dehydrates. Once I feel up to eating something I'll have a banana, some salt crackers and maybe kefir.
 
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