Stimulants Caffeine, Safe but counter-productive stimulant?

[Neuroprotection]

I am fine with the novel and potent CNS stimulants. Mph, amph, meth dextroa….

When it comes to caffeine.

On box of a monster or two coffees.
Instant panic attack

I mean it I have to take sedatives to get down from it

Anyone who has similar response?

I’m not that surprised. The pharmacology of caffeine is completely different to that of the traditional dopaminergic psychostimulants and I’m sure many users on this site can confirm that. Whilst all stimulants can cause/worsen anxiety, caffeine is particularly well known for doing that due to its function as an adenosine antagonist. furthermore, caffeine is not very reinforcing/rewarding as it has minimal effects on dopamine release. therefore, I suspect it is more likely for individuals to focus on the negative effects and experience them more strongly.
To answer your initial question, yes, I’ve had very bad anxiety responses to caffeine lasting over a year and only subsiding a few weeks ago. that’s actually the reason I started this thread. i’ve never used sedatives, but I don’t have access to those anyway.
During the time that caffeine was giving me severe anxiety, I was lucky enough to get hold of some nicotine which worked as an amazing stimulant which was highly rewarding, clean and had no anxiety.
My advice to you would be to check out the previous post, I’ve made today if you intend to keep using caffeine. however, if it always gives you anxiety, just drop it because it might just not be right for you. everyone’s body chemistry is different, and they will likely always be drugs that we absolutely hate and others that we love.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

I am fine with the novel and potent CNS stimulants. Mph, amph, meth dextroa….

When it comes to caffeine.

On box of a monster or two coffees.
Instant panic attack

I mean it I have to take sedatives to get down from it

Anyone who has similar response?

Yea, if I am regular caffeine regimen, it always leads to use of sedatives. Getting drunk and high on rivotrils right now

 

[emkee_reinvented]

The only worthwhile form of Caffein is in Guarana. Although alot of Green Tea also has its sharm's.

My morning start: Coffee.

 

[Jnowhere]

A long time ago, I was basically forced to stop drinking alcohol(before getting chirosis and becoming physically allergic and quitting for good) and started drinking hugh amounts of coffee. I would drink pot after pot of coffee; I really enjoyed the caffeine rush, and used it a substitute for beer.( Yes I know alcohol is a downer and caffeine a stimulant) One day, I ran out of coffee, and had no way to get to the store to buy more. I was ended with a hugh surprise; I got a headache that was worse than most migraines. I really didn't know this could happen, or at least this bad. Ever since then I have been scared of caffeine and I generally only drink soft drinks that are caffeine free now. In fact, I used to love iced tea and cola soft drinks. But that headache and having to basically taper down and get off caffeine( I am being serious) actually traumatized me to the point that I changed my soft drinking habits. I know tea and soft drinks with caffeine have considerably less caffeine in them, then coffee, and have only recently began to occasionally drink them in moderation. ( I know it sounds stupid but, that headache scared me the point that I haven't had even a sip of coffee in 20+ years) Even though I went through countless bouts of severe alcohol withdrawal without anything to help, I still have a fear of too much caffeine.

 

[Neuroprotection]

A long time ago, I was basically forced to stop drinking alcohol(before getting chirosis and becoming physically allergic and quitting for good) and started drinking hugh amounts of coffee. I would drink pot after pot of coffee; I really enjoyed the caffeine rush, and used it a substitute for beer.( Yes I know alcohol is a downer and caffeine a stimulant) One day, I ran out of coffee, and had no way to get to the store to buy more. I was ended with a hugh surprise; I got a headache that was worse than most migraines. I really didn't know this could happen, or at least this bad. Ever since then I have been scared of caffeine and I generally only drink soft drinks that are caffeine free now. In fact, I used to love iced tea and cola soft drinks. But that headache and having to basically taper down and get off caffeine( I am being serious) actually traumatized me to the point that I changed my soft drinking habits. I know tea and soft drinks with caffeine have considerably less caffeine in them, then coffee, and have only recently began to occasionally drink them in moderation. ( I know it sounds stupid but, that headache scared me the point that I haven't had even a sip of coffee in 20+ years) Even though I went through countless bouts of severe alcohol withdrawal without anything to help, I still have a fear of too much caffeine.

No need to worry. Your experience is probably more common than many think and caffeine withdrawal headaches can be very severe. on many occasions, I have been physically sick, almost unable to move and vomited from the severity of caffeine withdrawal headaches, it really is no joke.
Like you, I love the caffeine rush and even if I don’t get a buzz, The feeling of being almost instantaneously jolted awake is amazing in its own right. i’ve always loved caffeine, and that’s why I was deeply saddened when it temporarily stopped working for me during my anhedonia episode last year. so glad to have it working again for me now.
On your point about the different pharmacology of alcohol and caffeine, it’s not actually surprising you enjoyed them both. interestingly, despite alcohol, technically being a CNS depressant, Repeated ingestion results in sensitisation where it begins to produce significance stimulant effects. this is because tolerance develops to the inhibitory effects of alcohol in most brain regions, so effects like drowsiness, pain, relief, and impact on body temperature diminish over time with repeated use. however, the ability of alcohol to triggered dopamine release remains fully intact as does behavioural disinhibition.
Taking caffeine whilst in or shortly after alcohol detox is probably a bad idea as it might increase anxiety, relapse and possibly seizures as the brain is in a very excitable state.
However, I assume you developed your caffeine habit long after stopping alcohol, in which case the above mentioned risks don’t apply. You probably enjoyed caffeine as much as alcohol because it corrected any residual dopamine deficiency by sensitising dopamine receptors.
I don’t blame you for being traumatised by a caffeine headache, so my advice to you is as follows.
Firstly, do what feels right for you. If your energy levels and well-being are stable and you see no need for caffeine, you can stick to caffeine free alternatives or occasional caffeine use.
On the other hand, if you practically benefited from it, or simply miss it, you could consider going back to full-time use. caffeine is very cheap and available everywhere. to address your concern about headache, just keep some high strength ibuprofen or which ever painkiller works best with you as these should completely stop the headache in its tracks. you could also carry caffeine pills around with you and keep some at home in case you run out of caffeinated beverages. just try not to use the pills when you don’t need them as it defeats the point of having them as an emergency backup.

 

[Jnowhere]

No need to worry. Your experience is probably more common than many think and caffeine withdrawal headaches can be very severe. on many occasions, I have been physically sick, almost unable to move and vomited from the severity of caffeine withdrawal headaches, it really is no joke.
Like you, I love the caffeine rush and even if I don’t get a buzz, The feeling of being almost instantaneously jolted awake is amazing in its own right. i’ve always loved caffeine, and that’s why I was deeply saddened when it temporarily stopped working for me during my anhedonia episode last year. so glad to have it working again for me now.
On your point about the different pharmacology of alcohol and caffeine, it’s not actually surprising you enjoyed them both. interestingly, despite alcohol, technically being a CNS depressant, Repeated ingestion results in sensitisation where it begins to produce significance stimulant effects. this is because tolerance develops to the inhibitory effects of alcohol in most brain regions, so effects like drowsiness, pain, relief, and impact on body temperature diminish over time with repeated use. however, the ability of alcohol to triggered dopamine release remains fully intact as does behavioural disinhibition.
Taking caffeine whilst in or shortly after alcohol detox is probably a bad idea as it might increase anxiety, relapse and possibly seizures as the brain is in a very excitable state.
However, I assume you developed your caffeine habit long after stopping alcohol, in which case the above mentioned risks don’t apply. You probably enjoyed caffeine as much as alcohol because it corrected any residual dopamine deficiency by sensitising dopamine receptors.
I don’t blame you for being traumatised by a caffeine headache, so my advice to you is as follows.
Firstly, do what feels right for you. If your energy levels and well-being are stable and you see no need for caffeine, you can stick to caffeine free alternatives or occasional caffeine use.
On the other hand, if you practically benefited from it, or simply miss it, you could consider going back to full-time use. caffeine is very cheap and available everywhere. to address your concern about headache, just keep some high strength ibuprofen or which ever painkiller works best with you as these should completely stop the headache in its tracks. you could also carry caffeine pills around with you and keep some at home in case you run out of caffeinated beverages. just try not to use the pills when you don’t need them as it defeats the point of having them as an emergency backup.

Thank you for the reply, I have insomnia and should probably drink coffee once in a while, when I need to stay awake or wake up; for the rare times my messed up sleep, or lack there of: Interferes with having stuff to do, like right now I got to go to my lawyer's office ( just stuff dealing with my late father's estate, I have been trying to stay out of trouble)

 

[Neuroprotection]

Thank you for the reply, I have insomnia and should probably drink coffee once in a while, when I need to stay awake or wake up; for the rare times my messed up sleep, or lack there of: Interferes with having stuff to do, like right now I got to go to my lawyer's office ( just stuff dealing with my late father's estate, I have been trying to stay out of trouble)

I assume your father recently passed away, very sorry to hear that, may God bless him.
Yes, one of the main benefits of living caffeine, free can be deeper, better quality sleep and you are probably right to avoid its daily use if you have insomnia.

 

[Neuroprotection]

since caffeine started working for me again, i’ve noticed it’s really nice in social situations. it doesn’t change my personality, just mildly lifts my mood and energy levels, making me more coherent when I’m speaking to people.
Another thing I’ve noticed is a strong dose of caffeine works well to enhance the experience of being out in nature.
Last, but not least, I feel that caffeine can mildly help with symptoms of winter depression or fatigue. although I do love winter, I find myself needing/craving, and benefiting more strongly from considerably larger doses of caffeine than I would use in the summer.

Of course, I experienced none of these benefits during my anhedonia last year and the lingering mild depression that followed. but once these disappeared, all caffeine benefits came back in full force.

 

[Jnowhere]

I think my issues with caffeine all stem from me abusing it and temporarily using it as a substitute for alcohol. However I agree that used in moderation it can be fairly harmless and can have some benefits.
With that said chugging coffee all day long, pot after pot of coffee is a bad idea, especially if you suddenly stop.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

probably the softest drug I know of, barring some herbs like lavender. mite be wrong.

 

[Neuroprotection]

probably the softest drug I know of, barring some herbs like lavender. mite be wrong.

By soft, I assume you mean mild in terms of both effects and especially rewarding/addictive potential compared to most other recreational drugs.
However, I think it’s easy to underestimate caffeine’s stimulant potential in occasional users. during my second year of college, when I generally wasn’t using caffeine, one day was an exception, when I consumed a small can of caffeinated energy drink. as I’ve mentioned previously, when I’m not on caffeine, I have frequent naps throughout the day including when I would get home. on the day I consumed that drink, I completely forgot about the caffeine and went to have a nap. A few minutes later I was hit by the most intense feeling of wakefulness I had ever experienced with a slightly euphoric element. this lasted late into the night. another time during this period, I took headache medication that at the time I was unaware contained caffeine. I experienced that same energy rush and went to check the ingredients of the medication, sure enough it contained a lot of caffeine.
Of course, with regular use that surprising intensity is lost, although it still works pretty well to get me out of bed in the morning and I’ve been using it for more than a decade. of course, things were different during my period of anhedonia last year, but that has thankfully gone.

Because I believe caffeine is self limiting in terms of rewarding/reinforcing effects, I think it would make quite a nice recreational/functional drug for the occasional user. if you want to use it that way, I would recommend saving it for Times when you want to enjoy yourself but might be held back by tiredness. before I used caffeine daily, I would sometimes save energy drinks for the weekend. This is because the week of studying would make me extremely tired and I would end up sleeping in late on weekends. that morning hit of caffeine on a weekend would help me voluntarily get out of bed and I could enjoy the days of not doing work. As an added bonus, since I consumed the caffeine early and stayed up all day, my sleep schedule would not be screwed up by late sleeping on weekends.

 

[Madness]

By soft, I assume you mean mild in terms of both effects and especially rewarding/addictive potential compared to most other recreational drugs.
However, I think it’s easy to underestimate caffeine’s stimulant potential in occasional users. during my second year of college, when I generally wasn’t using caffeine, one day was an exception, when I consumed a small can of caffeinated energy drink. as I’ve mentioned previously, when I’m not on caffeine, I have frequent naps throughout the day including when I would get home. on the day I consumed that drink, I completely forgot about the caffeine and went to have a nap. A few minutes later I was hit by the most intense feeling of wakefulness I had ever experienced with a slightly euphoric element. this lasted late into the night. another time during this period, I took headache medication that at the time I was unaware contained caffeine. I experienced that same energy rush and went to check the ingredients of the medication, sure enough it contained a lot of caffeine.
Of course, with regular use that surprising intensity is lost, although it still works pretty well to get me out of bed in the morning and I’ve been using it for more than a decade. of course, things were different during my period of anhedonia last year, but that has thankfully gone.

Because I believe caffeine is self limiting in terms of rewarding/reinforcing effects, I think it would make quite a nice recreational/functional drug for the occasional user. if you want to use it that way, I would recommend saving it for Times when you want to enjoy yourself but might be held back by tiredness. before I used caffeine daily, I would sometimes save energy drinks for the weekend. This is because the week of studying would make me extremely tired and I would end up sleeping in late on weekends. that morning hit of caffeine on a weekend would help me voluntarily get out of bed and I could enjoy the days of not doing work. As an added bonus, since I consumed the caffeine early and stayed up all day, my sleep schedule would not be screwed up by late sleeping on weekends.

I read that caffeine allows for dopamine to take a stronger effect. It blocks reabsorption somewhat.

You didn't explicitly say this, but your post had me thinking - I enjoy caffeine in mornings as well. To make boring situations less boring. Similarly to how I use alcohol (and drugs too), to make the painful things less painful.

That said, I find that caffeine for me when used when already tired isn't very enjoyable. If I'm tired and need to stay awake I'll have an energy drink or coffee sure - but it's for the stimulation and nothing more. Being exhausted on caffeine is actually pretty uncomfortable. I feel loopy. My mind is still Jell-O but I have fine motor skills, is I guess how I'd explain my experience

 

[Neuroprotection]

does anyone else find that without caffeine they drift towards becoming a night person?
I’ve noticed that whenever I’m off caffeine and the withdrawals have passed, I paradoxically find myself wanting to stay up longer at night and seem to have more energy then. At first, I thought this was simply because I was sleeping in late without caffeine, but even being forced to get out of bed early didn’t correct this. of course, early rising would correct my sleep schedule to allow me to sleep at night, but I would drift back to late bedtime without caffeine at any opportunity.
I’ll be interested to know if anyone else is like this, either with caffeine or any other drug.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I read that caffeine allows for dopamine to take a stronger effect. It blocks reabsorption somewhat.

You didn't explicitly say this, but your post had me thinking - I enjoy caffeine in mornings as well. To make boring situations less boring. Similarly to how I use alcohol (and drugs too), to make the painful things less painful.

That said, I find that caffeine for me when used when already tired isn't very enjoyable. If I'm tired and need to stay awake I'll have an energy drink or coffee sure - but it's for the stimulation and nothing more. Being exhausted on caffeine is actually pretty uncomfortable. I feel loopy. My mind is still Jell-O but I have fine motor skills, is I guess how I'd explain my experience

You are correct. Caffeine makes given amount of dopamine much stronger. it does this by blocking adenosine. adenosine receptors are like the brakes that restrain the activity of dopamine receptors. by lifting these brakes, caffeine allows dopamine receptors to signal more strongly and continuously than normal, even though the amount of dopamine hasn’t changed.

Your experience with caffeine seems identical to mine. I also hate it when I’m tired and like you, I often use it to get through boring tasks.
On a sidenote, what’s your opinion on nicotine?
I absolutely love it and it’s much more rewarding than caffeine for me.

 

[Madness]

Nicotine, that's the one thing I can't seem to permenently quit.

I've overcame meth, coke, heroin, most of the drugs the average person has heard of.

Nicotine, I am not sure. I haven't won that battle yet.

It definitely feels more like a compulsive need than a means to an end.

How about you @Neuroprotection ?

 

[Neuroprotection]

Nicotine, that's the one thing I can't seem to permenently quit.

I've overcame meth, coke, heroin, most of the drugs the average person has heard of.

Nicotine, I am not sure. I haven't won that battle yet.

It definitely feels more like a compulsive need than a means to an end.

How about you @Neuroprotection ?

Thank you for that. For me, I don’t have experience with most other, drugs, just caffeine and nicotine. however, given that I’m blind and living with a family who won’t approve of a non-smoker like me using nicotine, I currently only use it occasionally if I can secretly get it off my brother. I love nicotine infinitely more than caffeine, I find it rather euphoric every time, and the effects seem to get better the longer I use it. if you’ve seen any of my previous posts, you’ll know that I absolutely hate doing any sort of mental work and I have tendencies towards laziness, poor focus, and attention and extreme procrastination. I once got hold of enough nicotine to use daily for a few months. during that time, I became super productive. this wasn’t because nicotine helped my memory or thinking speed, instead, it just made me able to tolerate pushing through a piece of work, it lifted the pain associated with it and help me to focus on the reward of getting it done. furthermore, I find nicotine has a really unique antidepressant effect. it does not numb my emotions in any way, it just helps me keep going in the face of excessive negative -ones. it gave me resilience whereby I could still feel those negative emotions, put under the influence of nicotine they just wouldn’t interfere with my performance.
Once I become independent, I’m planning to become a daily user of very high strength nicotine pouches, more specifically, the 150 MG iceberg product.
I’m not surprised you find nicotine so difficult to quit. apparently, research has recently found that nicotine, at least in the nucleus accumbens behaves very similar to psychostimulants like amphetamine and cocaine. The only difference is that nicotine doesn’t force the brain to release dopamine in a way that would exhaust its supplies or cause neurotoxicity.
To be honest, I have no qualms about being addicted to nicotine, and I’m planning to use it daily for the rest of my life.
If you’re not taking your nicotine from smoking tobacco, you might be okay or even better off carrying on with that addiction. despite being addictive, nicotine might be balancing out your reward system, acting as a bridge to hold you up and preventing you falling into the emotional despair/anhedonia that drives relapse in many addicts.

 

[Madness]

Thank you for that. For me, I don’t have experience with most other, drugs, just caffeine and nicotine. however, given that I’m blind and living with a family who won’t approve of a non-smoker like me using nicotine, I currently only use it occasionally if I can secretly get it off my brother. I love nicotine infinitely more than caffeine, I find it rather euphoric every time, and the effects seem to get better the longer I use it. if you’ve seen any of my previous posts, you’ll know that I absolutely hate doing any sort of mental work and I have tendencies towards laziness, poor focus, and attention and extreme procrastination. I once got hold of enough nicotine to use daily for a few months. during that time, I became super productive. this wasn’t because nicotine helped my memory or thinking speed, instead, it just made me able to tolerate pushing through a piece of work, it lifted the pain associated with it and help me to focus on the reward of getting it done. furthermore, I find nicotine has a really unique antidepressant effect. it does not numb my emotions in any way, it just helps me keep going in the face of excessive negative -ones. it gave me resilience whereby I could still feel those negative emotions, put under the influence of nicotine they just wouldn’t interfere with my performance.
Once I become independent, I’m planning to become a daily user of very high strength nicotine pouches, more specifically, the 150 MG iceberg product.
I’m not surprised you find nicotine so difficult to quit. apparently, research has recently found that nicotine, at least in the nucleus accumbens behaves very similar to psychostimulants like amphetamine and cocaine. The only difference is that nicotine doesn’t force the brain to release dopamine in a way that would exhaust its supplies or cause neurotoxicity.
To be honest, I have no qualms about being addicted to nicotine, and I’m planning to use it daily for the rest of my life.
If you’re not taking your nicotine from smoking tobacco, you might be okay or even better off carrying on with that addiction. despite being addictive, nicotine might be balancing out your reward system, acting as a bridge to hold you up and preventing you falling into the emotional despair/anhedonia that drives relapse in many addicts.

You know yourself best.

Personally, the part of addiction to anything that I find most troubling, is how I can be preoccupied with thoughts of the substance. Even dreaming about them.

 

[Neuroprotection]

You know yourself best.

Personally, the part of addiction to anything that I find most troubling, is how I can be preoccupied with thoughts of the substance. Even dreaming about them.

Interesting. do you obsess over nicotine? I know it’s addictive, but unless you’re in a constant struggle to quit it, it’s rather unusual to be dreaming about it.
Then again, everyone is different. for some, dependence on a substance may hold them back and even if the substance is not particularly intoxicating, some personally don’t like the idea of being addicted to anything.
Although I can’t relate to that feeling, it’s perfectly okay and I respect it.
I talked about this on another thread today, my brother can’t stand the idea of being addicted to anything and he really can’t understand why I want to start using nicotine. he takes it even further in that he disagrees with the use of substances to help one get through work

 

[Neuroprotection]

update:
I’ve now been completely off caffeine for three days as Ramadan has started, and I won’t be using caffeine for a whole month. The main effects I experienced are as follows:
Extreme fatigue/tiredness on the first day, followed by a mild headache which probably would’ve got worse if I didn’t take paracetamol.
On the second day, there was no headache but just constant sleepiness.
Subtle, but more interesting effects of being caffeine free for me include:
irregular, but seemingly better quality sleep.
Slightly decreased anxiety.
Greater energy from food after eating.

Unfortunately, the main negative affects of being off caffeine is a slightly increased sense of gloom and apathy when faced by a big stressor although this does resolve quickly. there’s also the fact that the sleep improvements seen with caffeine withdrawal disappear after the first week and my sleep goes back to being light and easily disturbed.
I do wonder how much fasting without food or water all day contributes to the experience. if I can resist the traditional coffee we drink on Eid(celebrating the end of Ramadan), I might try going caffeine free for an extra week to see what difference being able to eat and drink in the daytime makes.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Guarana is is not couner productive. At least ime.