Stimulants Caffeine, Safe but counter-productive stimulant?

[CFC]

Nicotine is the drug I want to use at high doses frequently on a daily basis as a replacement for caffeine. i’m really surprised you found kratom less addictive than nicotine. i’m not doubting your statement/ experience, just wondering if it is your unique body chemistry or is this actually more common than I thought. some people think I may have a unique body chemistry due to my unusually intense positive reactions to chronic nicotine use.

You do know how addictive nicotine is right? I'm guessing you likely do, but it's definitely up there with some of the worst.

 

[Neuroprotection]

You do know how addictive nicotine is right? I'm guessing you likely do, but it's definitely up there with some of the worst.

Oh yes, I am fully aware of that. chronic nicotine makes me very resilient to stress so I’m prepared for lifelong dependence. of course, I’m not planning to get it through cigarettes, but rather through very high potency Siberia brand of Swedish Snuss(45 mg of nicotine per pouch) or even better, a tobacco free product that delivers the same amount of nicotine.

 

[Mycophile]

Good to hear, I wish you all the best. let me start with your last question about a drug for your social anxiety, as that is the most important. personally, I would avoid antipsychotics and prescribing them for an anxiety disorder is a little unusual, especially social anxiety, which I’m pretty sure they could severely aggravate. I think occasional valerian route or kava extract may help with anxiety flare ups, but be aware that these drugs can also be somewhat addictive. if your social anxiety doesn’t improve and you require medication, I’ve heard that tranylcypromine is an excellent last resort for treating social anxiety but it can simultaneously fight fatigue as well through it’s dopaminergic affects. however, it really should be a last resort as it is a non-selective MAO inhibitor requiring severe dietary and Drug restrictions.

Just to clarify, in regards to my desire to give up caffeine, that’s because of its anxiety provoking and mind scattering effects. without caffeine in my system, I’m hoping I can explore occasional use of other stimulants like methylphenidate or even regular use of selegiline which is apparently excellent for long-term motivation. I know i’ve asked others this question, but it really interests me. if you can remember any time where you didn’t consume caffeine, how did that affect your experience with other substances? personally, when I went for a year without caffeine, I developed a greater interest in other substances and I found nicotine to be both much more pleasurable as a euphoriant, but also much more effective as a functional drug to help me get work done. others have understandably questioned how it is that I consider giving up caffeine only to replace it with nicotine, which is a much more addictive stimulant. my answer to that is I don’t actually have a problem being dependent on something so long as it is cheaply available and easily accessible. I think my main problem with caffeine is not the fact that it is simply a stimulant, but rather, it’s mechanism of action (adenosine antagonism) is likely exacerbating my anxiety and producing a non-functional aversive stimulation. this is one of the reasons why caffeine doesn’t work for ADHD in almost everyone, with some suggesting it can actually exacerbate ADHD symptoms. apparently, caffeine can also render Adderall or Ritalin toxic and ineffective. it’s not a simple case of potentiation, but blockade of adenosine receptors bye caffeine can alter the brains response to psychostimulants.

I’m actually really interested in trying ginseng, but I would only want to do it once I’m completely off caffeine. i’ve always wanted to know how good of a stimulant strong ginseng is on its own, but I have not yet been able to get hold of some.
In regards to your experience with B vitamins, you shouldn’t really get much Direct stimulation from them unless you were previously deficient. However, The idea of extra B vitamin supplementation is to help maintain stress resilience(Ability to resist breaking down physically or mentally under pressure).

Yeah, we have similar reasons for wanting to quit. I'm on day 7 of a detox, which is the last day. I've done it before and it helps with the physical withdrawal, but still, it's rough on rainy gray days like today having NOTHING but a little ginseng to wake me up. Really, my photosonix nova pro did more. The 7 day detox had: Rutacarpine, Schisandra, Ginseng, Ashwagandha, Dandelion Root and Magnesium. And I'm also with you on not caring whether or not I replace caffeine with something else to some extent (I'd rather not need a stimulant EVERY DAY or being physically dependent on it if possible) but really I just can't deal with the anxiety, the crash and the effect on my sleep quality and it making me want to take more Klonopin. If anything can possibly help as a stimulant in moderation and not mess me up like caffeine has, then I'm fine with it, but I know it's a slippery slope so I don't want to just go nuts on another stimulant.

Yeah, Ginseng helps a little bit. I think the kind I have is probably good quality, but it's not like something super strong. It's very mild but it helps a little bit. Paraxanthine is stronger, and that's the only other one of the things I've gotten or have ordered as a replacement that I've tried.

As far as your asking about experiences with other drugs while off of caffeine, I've never really been off it long enough to be able to say. I can tell you that LESS caffeine has made weed less anxiety inducing for me than when I drink more, so i can assume even less weed anxiety on none. Klonopin makes me more tired off caffeine that I can say for sure. And Kratom is very finicky in general for me and often doesn't work, and I know that there have been times where drinking too much coffee has completely ruined Kratom for me, and there have been times where drinking somewhat less I THINK may have allowed the kratom to work a bit better, but Kratom is really just so hit or miss with me these days, and I don't want to get addicted to it again, so I usually don't use it much these days.

 

[Mycophile]

Good to hear, I wish you all the best. let me start with your last question about a drug for your social anxiety, as that is the most important. personally, I would avoid antipsychotics and prescribing them for an anxiety disorder is a little unusual, especially social anxiety, which I’m pretty sure they could severely aggravate. I think occasional valerian route or kava extract may help with anxiety flare ups, but be aware that these drugs can also be somewhat addictive. if your social anxiety doesn’t improve and you require medication, I’ve heard that tranylcypromine is an excellent last resort for treating social anxiety but it can simultaneously fight fatigue as well through it’s dopaminergic affects. however, it really should be a last resort as it is a non-selective MAO inhibitor requiring severe dietary and Drug restrictions.

Just to clarify, in regards to my desire to give up caffeine, that’s because of its anxiety provoking and mind scattering effects. without caffeine in my system, I’m hoping I can explore occasional use of other stimulants like methylphenidate or even regular use of selegiline which is apparently excellent for long-term motivation. I know i’ve asked others this question, but it really interests me. if you can remember any time where you didn’t consume caffeine, how did that affect your experience with other substances? personally, when I went for a year without caffeine, I developed a greater interest in other substances and I found nicotine to be both much more pleasurable as a euphoriant, but also much more effective as a functional drug to help me get work done. others have understandably questioned how it is that I consider giving up caffeine only to replace it with nicotine, which is a much more addictive stimulant. my answer to that is I don’t actually have a problem being dependent on something so long as it is cheaply available and easily accessible. I think my main problem with caffeine is not the fact that it is simply a stimulant, but rather, it’s mechanism of action (adenosine antagonism) is likely exacerbating my anxiety and producing a non-functional aversive stimulation. this is one of the reasons why caffeine doesn’t work for ADHD in almost everyone, with some suggesting it can actually exacerbate ADHD symptoms. apparently, caffeine can also render Adderall or Ritalin toxic and ineffective. it’s not a simple case of potentiation, but blockade of adenosine receptors bye caffeine can alter the brains response to psychostimulants.

I’m actually really interested in trying ginseng, but I would only want to do it once I’m completely off caffeine. i’ve always wanted to know how good of a stimulant strong ginseng is on its own, but I have not yet been able to get hold of some.
In regards to your experience with B vitamins, you shouldn’t really get much Direct stimulation from them unless you were previously deficient. However, The idea of extra B vitamin supplementation is to help maintain stress resilience(Ability to resist breaking down physically or mentally under pressure).

Also, may I ask why you got addicted to caffeine again after a whole year off it? Like, do you think you could have stayed off it if you'd really wanted to? Cause if I ever made it that long I'd really like to think I'd have conquered my caffeine addiction altogether. Was it something psychological like thinking you needed it for work or something like that? And overall, did you feel better and less anxious during that year off caffeine?

 

[Neuroprotection]

Yeah, we have similar reasons for wanting to quit. I'm on day 7 of a detox, which is the last day. I've done it before and it helps with the physical withdrawal, but still, it's rough on rainy gray days like today having NOTHING but a little ginseng to wake me up. Really, my photosonix nova pro did more. The 7 day detox had: Rutacarpine, Schisandra, Ginseng, Ashwagandha, Dandelion Root and Magnesium. And I'm also with you on not caring whether or not I replace caffeine with something else to some extent (I'd rather not need a stimulant EVERY DAY or being physically dependent on it if possible) but really I just can't deal with the anxiety, the crash and the effect on my sleep quality and it making me want to take more Klonopin. If anything can possibly help as a stimulant in moderation and not mess me up like caffeine has, then I'm fine with it, but I know it's a slippery slope so I don't want to just go nuts on another stimulant.

Yeah, Ginseng helps a little bit. I think the kind I have is probably good quality, but it's not like something super strong. It's very mild but it helps a little bit. Paraxanthine is stronger, and that's the only other one of the things I've gotten or have ordered as a replacement that I've tried.

As far as your asking about experiences with other drugs while off of caffeine, I've never really been off it long enough to be able to say. I can tell you that LESS caffeine has made weed less anxiety inducing for me than when I drink more, so i can assume even less weed anxiety on none. Klonopin makes me more tired off caffeine that I can say for sure. And Kratom is very finicky in general for me and often doesn't work, and I know that there have been times where drinking too much coffee has completely ruined Kratom for me, and there have been times where drinking somewhat less I THINK may have allowed the kratom to work a bit better, but Kratom is really just so hit or miss with me these days, and I don't want to get addicted to it again, so I usually don't use it much these days.

Very interesting, thanks for that. i’m sure you’ll find something that works best for you. an interesting nootropic is selegiline,(L-Deprenyl) though in my opinion and at least at the doses I am planning to use, it is basically a powerful pharmaceutical drug. some people report slightly manic or mild anxiety symptoms and that’s understandable. However, it may be that some of those people are mixing it with caffeine which they probably shouldn’t. another replacement for caffeine i’m interested in trying is 300 mg bupropion tablets. other substances I would like to try on an occasional basis include; phenylpiracetam, prolintane, fencamfamin and nomifensine(This one is an exception that I might use on a daily basis). of course, I would never combine these substances together or even use them in close proximity to each other. aside from those, unless I am diagnosed with ADHD, I might use methylphenidate occasionally, although, the other substances I previously mentioned sound good enough.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Also, may I ask why you got addicted to caffeine again after a whole year off it? Like, do you think you could have stayed off it if you'd really wanted to? Cause if I ever made it that long I'd really like to think I'd have conquered my caffeine addiction altogether. Was it something psychological like thinking you needed it for work or something like that? And overall, did you feel better and less anxious during that year off caffeine?

Basically, that year off caffeine occurred when I was a teenager at College and was unintentional. since I was a kid, I always believed caffeine helped me, probably just because I was fascinated with drugs plus I heard everyone around me saying it. when I started college, my family went on holiday at the same time and nobody was there to prepare the fresh coffee me and my mother ritually drank every morning. with these changes, I basically forgot about coffee/caffeine and that’s where things got interesting. Many people commented my skin looks healthier and I look alive. interestingly, off caffeine my Energy levels and sleep pattern changed. for example, whilst my sleep was definitely deeper, without caffeine I had a propensity to go to bed later and wake up later. whilst I didn’t notice it then, my anxiety was massively reduced and if I ever became anxious about work/deadlines, it would be a more functional anxiety which pushes me to get the work done. In contrast, on caffeine, my anxiety is more likely to push me away from work and encourage me to procrastinate or rush, producing a lower quality of work. I was also much more social without caffeine.
Unfortunately, I didn’t realise those benefits until reflecting on it now. in regards to what got me back on caffeine, some friends at college offered to buy me energy drinks in bulk and at a low price to help me revise. Note that I am blind so that’s why I couldn’t go on my own. One afternoon before class, I took my first two cans of energy drink and shortly after my afternoon sleepiness disappeared. however, something just didn’t feel right. my mind felt scattered and I was unable to focus on anything. I lost all interest in the lesson, Along with becoming extremely anxious. unfortunately, I didn’t take heed of these symptoms and convinced myself that caffeine was somehow helping me. it is true that without caffeine, I was much more likely to fall asleep in class, but I was more likely to actually sit down and read over the notes afterwards and do any work that needed to be done.
I assume caffeine induced anxiety is the main cause of all my caffeine related problems, though I do believe that the adenosine antagonism might play a more direct role in disturbing focus/attention.
During that year of caffeine, I was very lucky to find a huge supply of my fathers abandoned nicotine products(Lots of e-cigarettes and high nicotine liquid). without caffeine, nicotine worked so much better as both a recreational and functional drug.
I think the next time I quit caffeine, I’m never going back. to be successful and to make the most out of it, i’m waiting till my fixed term employment contract ends and I can change my working hours. also, my family may be going on holiday soon meaning I don’t have to wake up very early every morning. what regularly brings me back to caffeine after quitting it for Ramadan is the requirement for me to wake up very early every morning. i’m practically non-functional in the morning and walk around half asleep, hence the desire for caffeine.
If my circumstances change for the better, I’ll be delighted to have caffeine out of my life and be able to wake up with my natural energy. One benefit I forgot to mention of being without caffeine is having a high libido. I don’t know if that’s just me and a few others, but I searched it and found an article making the same claim.

 

[Neuroprotection]

just done a bit more research and it seems to be that most of caffeine’s negative effects, especially mental anxiety and physical discomfort are caused bye adenosine A1 receptor blockade. it’s very interesting to note that activation of A1 adenosine receptors by a selective agonist has not only antianxiety and sleep promoting properties, but also antidepressant effects. in contrast, activation of A2A adenosine receptors promote depressive behaviour and suppress locomotor activity by suppressing the downstream signalling of dopamine receptors. this could be why caffeine, By blocking both classes of receptors has both negative and positive effects respectively. apparently, chronic caffeine can lead to a temporary supersensitivity of the adenosine A1 receptor, but only a very minor change in the Number/sensitivity of the A2A subtype. over activation of these receptors during withdrawal could also explain why caffeine withdrawal/abstinence also has positive and negative effects. for example, A1 hyperactivity could contribute to increased tiredness, suppression of anxiety but also possibly headaches. The initial, but very short lived depressive phase is probably linked to excessive A2A activation, which thankfully disappears very quickly.

One question that fascinated me is why The benefits of caffeine abstinence don’t disappear once homeostasis is re-established. I suspect the reason might be constitutive adenosine A1 activity fulfilling important functions. constitutive activity refers to a Receptor being able to transmit signals or influence other signalling pathways when not bound to any agonist. Areceptors constitutive activity may be similar or wildly different from its traditional agonist activated signalling pathway. opioid receptors, particularly the MU subtype are known for this, something which could explain how Mu opioid receptors contribute to amphetamine reward.
A1 adenosine receptors strongly modulate glutamate release and receptor functions in various ways. I will do a bit more reading about this and post the links if anyone wants them.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Activation of Adenosine1 Receptors Induces Antidepressant-Like, Anti-Impulsive Effects on Differential Reinforcement of Low-Rate 72-s Behavior in Rats

Stress and psychiatric illness have been associated with a dysregulation of glutamatergic neurotransmission. Recently, positive allosteric modulators (PAMs) of the metabotropic glutamate 2 (mGlu[2] ) receptor have been found to exert antidepressant-like ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[jasperkent]

Nicotine is the drug I want to use at high doses frequently on a daily basis as a replacement for caffeine. i’m really surprised you found kratom less addictive than nicotine. i’m not doubting your statement/ experience, just wondering if it is your unique body chemistry or is this actually more common than I thought. some people think I may have a unique body chemistry due to my unusually intense positive reactions to chronic nicotine use.

I dunno.
I just know that nicotine was the first drug I became addicted to (relatively quickly) and the only drug I've never been able to kick.

 

[jasperkent]

I dunno.
I just know that nicotine was the first drug I became addicted to (relatively quickly) and the only drug I've never been able to kick.

PS-- Obviously the physical symptoms of WD are much worse with other drugs (alcohol, benzos, opioids), but the psychological symptoms of nicotine WD are rough for me: anxiety, irritability, depression, and unbearably intense cravings.
All I got from kratom WD was insomnia and a mild headache.

 

[jasperkent]

I dunno.
I just know that nicotine was the first drug I became addicted to (relatively quickly) and the only drug I've never been able to kick.

PPS-- It occurs to me that I started smoking at age 12 and was fully addicted by age 14.
I've used nicotine daily for 50 years.
I bet that has a lot to do with the severity of my addiction.

 

[Neuroprotection]

PS-- Obviously the physical symptoms of WD are much worse with other drugs (alcohol, benzos, opioids), but the psychological symptoms of nicotine WD are rough for me: anxiety, irritability, depression, and unbearably intense cravings.
All I got from kratom WD was insomnia and a mild headache.

I definitely agree with you. Nicotine is seriously psychologically addictive and it definitely affects the reward system, Probably much stronger than some medical experts are currently claiming. my father told me about a man he knew Who was an alcoholic for decades but eventually managed to kick that habit. However, he never managed to quit chewing tobacco, no matter how much he tried.
Do you agree with me about the stress resilience effects of nicotine. i’ve talked about this in my previous posts but if you want me to describe in more detail what I mean by stress resilience, I’m happy to do so.

 

[jasperkent]

...my father told me about a man he knew Who was an alcoholic for decades but eventually managed to kick that habit. However, he never managed to quit chewing tobacco, no matter how much he tried.

I read somewhere that most sober alcoholics die from a tobacco-related illness.

Do you agree with me about the stress resilience effects of nicotine. i’ve talked about this in my previous posts but if you want me to describe in more detail what I mean by stress resilience, I’m happy to do so.

100% agree. I've dealt with some seriously stressful situations in my life and I remember thinking as long as I have cigarettes I'll be OK.

 

[Neuroprotection]

this study goes into a lot more detail about the role of adenosine antagonism in caffeine behavioural effects. interestingly, chronic caffeine seems to change the level of many neurotransmitter receptors, Not just those of adenosine A1 receptors.

The role of adenosine receptors in the central action of caffeine

The behavioral effects of caffeine appear likely to be due in large measure to antagonism of the action of endogenous adenosine at A[1] - and A[2a] -receptors in the central nervous system. Other biochemical mechanisms of action of caffeine, such as release ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Neuroprotection]

here’s a Study that suggests a significant link between early caffeine use and the onset of smoking/nicotine addiction. I guess drinking two large pots of coffee every morning since age 12 could have altered my brain enough to cause it to enjoy nicotine particularly strongly.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0285682&type=printable

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

Smoking tobacco or weed increases caffeine metabolization. Smoking forms some compounds that increase some enzyme levels. I never recall what they are. PHAs? DAmn now I am pissed.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Smoking tobacco or weed increases caffeine metabolization. Smoking forms some compounds that increase some enzyme levels. I never recall what they are. PHAs? DAmn now I am pissed.

Yes, I’m aware of that. hopefully, though when I start nicotine, I won’t be getting it through cigarettes and I will be completely off caffeine. according to what I’ve read, caffeine actually has pharmacodynamic interactions with nicotine, thus altering nicotine’s psychoactive/behavioural effects. it is said that caffeine enhances the stimulatory and pleasurable effects of nicotine when Coadministered with it. I partly agree with this. caffeine has definitely enhanced nicotine stimulation for me in the past creating a stronger euphoric rush. however, as I’ve said previously, nicotine seems to be a lot more rewarding and functional for me when I’m completely off caffeine. it’s very hard to explain, but without caffeine, nicotine gives me a long-lasting mood lift and a very clean mild mental stimulation. additionally, in the absence of caffeine, nicotine seems to have more of a deeper/ subconscious rewarding effect which I really can’t explain.
I know I’ve made this point many times before, but just want to mention it as I get asked about it a lot and I think it’s quite important people understand where I’m coming from. I’ve fully accepted that I will become addicted to nicotine once I use it to replace caffeine. however, I have no problem being dependent on a cheap and readily available drug like nicotine, which could help me so much with procrastination, as well as providing me with enjoyment and comfort more generally. with these benefits aside, just the stress resilience that chronic nicotine has given me in the past, would be enough to consider using it daily for the rest of my life. so what about caffeine?
Well, caffeine is undoubtedly less harmful and addictive than nicotine and is readily available. however, apart from getting me out of bed in the morning, caffeine is generally giving me heightened anxiety/ stress, Worsening my ADHD like symptoms and worsening my procrastination.
I know you probably already understood my point but I just wanted to clarify this for others.
I am by no means upset and this is no criticism of people who question my ideas, it’s actually a good thing. I admit, replacing caffeine with nicotine might sound bizarre or simply a bad idea, but it is something I have thought about very deeply and the conclusion I came to after years of experience.

 

[Neuroprotection]

this is just my personal experience and a bit of what I’ve read online, so it isn’t medical advice. One of the paradoxical side-effects of quitting caffeine is temporary insomnia or even a long-term unusual shift in sleep patterns/timings. as I’ve mentioned, without caffeine, I found myself gravitating towards later bedtime and later rising. it has been suggested that adenosine A1 supersensitivity unmasked as caffeine is removed from the system by night, produces a more heavy/sedated drowsiness which speeds up sleep onset. once this cycle of antagonism and withdrawal from caffeine is broken, sleep may not come as easily. however, I believe A much more important/major contributor to this phenomenon is excessive daytime napping. without caffeine in the system, tiredness is much more likely to lead to sleep, especially if one is bored and inactive. doing this too frequently may disrupt sleep wake cycles and reduce sleep pressure. therefore, by the time night comes, your body feels adequately rested and the brain feels it has no reason to go to sleep yet.
The solution to this is simple, though it’s definitely easier said than done. try to avoid napping as much as possible and try to get some bright light, a brisk walk and some water to drink to stimulate you. doing this for a few days along with waking up at the same time every day should force the circadian clock to readjust and you should have your desired bedtime achieved in no time.

The other point, which might only apply to me, is the increased obsession/curiosity with other substances when completely off caffeine. I generally enjoy this, but my only concern is that if I try another psychoactive substance and as with nicotine, I come to enjoy it more without caffeine, dependency could be a risk. of course, I’m going to always keep this in mind and maybe even write it down as a reminder as well as making addictive amphetamine like stimulants strictly an occasional affair, sticking to Low doses only ever administered orally and never re-dosing no matter what.
Kratom is something I might also consider using occasionally unless I come to the conclusion that long-term use is non-problematic.

 

[jasperkent]

.... nicotine, which could help me so much with procrastination....

Hope it helps you.
Unfortunately for me, nicotine exacerbates my procrastinating tendencies. I don't know how many times a day I will think I need to _______, but first I'll smoke a cigarette. Or two. Or three...
But of course I also consume a lot of caffeine. You pointed out that this might be counterproductive to my motivation.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Nicotine gum works well IMO

But the cardiovascular problems may not be worth it