Why are there so many open air drug markets in the U.S?

[OrbitalCombustion]

So I've been watching a few documentaries on Youtube and I'm finding this new phenonimon more than a little odd. Being from the UK here we certainly have places law enforcement know what is going on and monitor it, but nothing like some states in the US have these days (Philidelphia, Washington etc.)

Years ago I remember most places in America having quite heavy drugs laws, and even heavier sentance. I feel like the opioid crisis in some states must be some sort of blackops project to depopulated or else why would you ever allow public consumption of street sourced fentanyl/heroin/cocaine/meth. I notice some places in Canada (Vancouver, etc) have the same type approach where the police will sit and do nothing as addicts IV right in front of them.

Despite being anti prohibition I struggle to see that this kind of unregulated approach won't cause problems, especially knowing your country is full of drugs all cut with insanely powerful opiates like fentanyl.

Does anyone else here think it is a logical conclusion to make the government's are allowing this as a method to depopalate?

Be safe out there people, buy testing kits and only consume a tiny amount at first. Better safe than dead.

Lol Open Air Drug Market you make it sound so fancy. The main reason why is the cops wouldn't have the time or effort to prosecute every small time drug user, just isn't practical. This is in most places across America. The depopulation idea is an interesting stance and worth some thought for sure.

They are more worried about big drug deals and more advanced crimes. Cops hate paperwork. Plus they know arresting that person will not deter them from using or ending up on the same street corner. These Hotspot are typically ignored and they let the people there run rampant. We have plenty where I'm at. Philadelphia is a complete shithole it's up there on the list of these places you're talking about.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

yea but they're letting the dealers deal, and that's what's fucked up - you don't have to do anything to the user


i can't help but think that there's an ulterior motive to all of this

and ya know what, im gonna stop right there because you guys are gonna start calling me a fascist and an anti-harm reduction kinda guy if i go any further on this topic


but it's outta fuckin control right now and something needs to be done about it

 

[somnilicious]

yea but they're letting the dealers deal, and that's what's fucked up - you don't have to do anything to the user


i can't help but think that there's an ulterior motive to all of this

and ya know what, im gonna stop right there because you guys are gonna start calling me a fascist and an anti-harm reduction kinda guy if i go any further on this topic


but it's outta fuckin control right now and something needs to be done about it

The West Coast cities all seem to be imploding under this problem.

 

[smokeymcpot42088]

poverty, desperation, allure of a quick dollar. Because they can relatively successfully? I have wondered this as well.

*edit* I have also noticed an unusual thing going an with these open air markets....They seem to be safer than the blocks sorrounding them as the higher ups keep the stick up kids off there block. They dont want heat from robberies when that money was coming to them smooth otherwise. But I have noticed the drug controlled blocks are actually a little more orderly, safer may be going too far...

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

The West Coast cities all seem to be imploding under this problem.

Yea because drug laws are racist

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

The West Coast cities all seem to be imploding under this problem.

But I'd like to point out to you places like Philadelphia, NYC, and Chicago aren't doing much better...

 

[Foreigner]

There's more resources then one would think. In Orlando they have free detox, free rehab, then methadone or Subutex can be gotten for free and they put all the addicts who show a desire to do well and stay clean in apartments that were free for a year or even more.

In Daytona there are several places to stay for less than $500 a month
but there are homeless addicts everywhere. In my experience most people that are homeless just want to use drugs and be left alone to their own devices which unfortunately there wasn't many cheap drug using flop houses, though those did exist in a state of gross disrepair as well.

I know there are instances where help is still available so I apologize for making it seem so dire. I was mostly talking on the macro level. Of course some individuals will fare better than others depending on where they are and what resources they are lucky enough to gain access to.

 

[elgoucho9]

yea but they're letting the dealers deal, and that's what's fucked up - you don't have to do anything to the user


i can't help but think that there's an ulterior motive to all of this

and ya know what, im gonna stop right there because you guys are gonna start calling me a fascist and an anti-harm reduction kinda guy if i go any further on this topic


but it's outta fuckin control right now and something needs to be done about it

Exactly that. I mean what did they used to do to catch the bigger fish but go through the smaller ones first?

Consider how many people are still in jail in the US for small time drug dealing.

 

[Serhat]

The prevalence of open-air drug markets in the U.S. is a complex issue that cannot be attributed to a single cause. It's important to note that these observations are not universally true for every part of the U.S., and many cities and communities do not have open-air drug markets. However, where they do exist, several factors contribute to their prevalence:

1. Economic Inequality: Areas with high rates of poverty and few opportunities for upward mobility can be vulnerable to the emergence of illegal economies, including drug markets.
2. Social Disorganization: Neighborhoods that lack social cohesion or are fragmented in terms of norms and social control are more susceptible to criminal activities, including open-air drug markets.
3. Law Enforcement Challenges: The concentration of crime in certain areas can stretch police resources thin, making it difficult to permanently shut down open-air markets.
4. Consumer Demand: The high demand for illegal drugs sustains these markets. Some areas may become known as drug-buying destinations, even drawing in consumers from other areas.
5. Legislation: In some instances, drug laws themselves, by criminalizing drug users and sellers, can inadvertently create a black market for drugs.
6. Network Effects: Drug markets, like any other market, benefit from network effects. The more established a market becomes, the more attractive it is for both buyers and sellers, perpetuating its existence.
7. Gang Activity: In many cases, open-air drug markets are controlled by gangs who defend their "territory" fiercely, adding an additional challenge to law enforcement efforts to shut them down.
8. Adaptive Strategies: When law enforcement closes down indoor or more covert drug-selling operations, sellers and buyers may move to open-air markets as an adaptive strategy.
9. Urban Design: The built environment, including the layout of streets, buildings, and public spaces, can also influence where open-air markets are located. Places that offer some level of concealment, multiple escape routes, and high foot traffic can be conducive to such activities.
10. Cultural Factors: In some areas, the drug trade has been present for so long that it has become a "normal" part of the local culture, making it more challenging to eradicate.
11. Policy Failures: The War on Drugs has not succeeded in eliminating drug use or trade but has sometimes resulted in the displacement of drug markets from one area to another without solving the root issues.
12. Supply Chains: Proximity to supply routes, including international borders, can also contribute to the prevalence of open-air drug markets.

Efforts to deal with open-air drug markets involve not only law enforcement but also community revitalization, economic development, and public health initiatives to address the root causes that contribute to their existence.

 

[AlsoTapered]

We've got them in Dublin city centre. Sheriff st, Oliver bond flats are two that come to mind. There's plenty more though. When mobile phones became ubiquitous, street dealing became a dead art. Its come full circle and now lads are back on spots and the customers just arrive. Their making serious money

EVERY town in the UK has open markets. The street I live on is rapidly becoming one. In 400 yards I was stopped and directly asked if I wanted and light or dark. They look pissed of when I told them I didn't use.

The MOST obvious is next to Asda because ta da - no cameras. Sit on a bench for 5 minutes and you will have dealers SWARMING to sell or to give you their number.

I'm seriously disabled, in my 50s and not exactly skinny... so it seems SO MANY people have figured out that they ONLY have 1 way to make a living. Dealing.

 

[crazyhairman]

"watching documentaries" isn't a great frame of reference to really witness real life streets out here.
Why don't you come on down to the projects in any city in the states. Bring all your money and jewelry too.

Never been to Philly so I couldn't tell you. I can get you a map of all the properties where a meth lab has been found around north Texas.

When I lived in Washington state I don't think they ever arrested anyone for drugs. If it was a non-violent offence they just gave you a court date. So at that point, why the hell not hold up a sign saying you selling drugs.

I don't know. It varies from state to state, city to city. Politics play a role as well. Police get stretched thin in some areas so you might get 14 calls an hour on your beet. Are you going to go to the man with a knife in Walmart call or a bunch of homeless junkies selling drugs to each other.

Teenagers stealing cars, or dude standing outside the corner store selling dime bags.

Twice a year they will do an under cover buy, bust operation for a week. The dea only fucks with big deals and they move super fast. So yea as long as you aren't well connected pushing big weight you can set up small time shop anywhere and fly right under the radar.

Welcome to America, the best nation in the world

 

[Serhat]

Typical liberal nonsense, this because of police defending, policies that make police scared to do anything, lax laws and liberal district attorneys, revolving door criminal justice, and the feds failure to use Rico laws on street gangs.

The topic of open-air drug markets is contentious and people hold a wide range of perspectives on how best to address the issue. You bring up another viewpoint that argues for a more law-and-order oriented approach to the problem, pointing to perceived deficiencies in law enforcement and criminal justice policies.

Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice​

1. Police Defunding: Critics of defunding argue that reduced resources for police departments can lead to reduced effectiveness in combating all sorts of crime, including open-air drug markets.
2. Lax Enforcement: Some people argue that if police feel restricted in their ability to enforce the law due to public sentiment or policy, this could embolden criminals to act with impunity.
3. Liberal District Attorneys: Prosecutors with lenient stances on drug-related offenses might opt for less punitive measures, which critics say might not deter future illegal activity.
4. Revolving Door Justice: This term refers to the perception that criminals are arrested, processed, and then released only to commit crimes again, contributing to ongoing cycles of criminality.
5. RICO Laws: The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) was intended to combat organized crime and could be used more aggressively to tackle gang-controlled drug markets, according to proponents of this view.
6. Federal Involvement: Some argue that federal agencies should be more proactive in dismantling drug trafficking organizations, which often supply local markets.

Tougher Legislation and Penalties​

1. Mandatory Minimum Sentences: Proponents argue that strict sentencing can act as a deterrent against participating in drug markets.
2. Three-Strikes Laws: Some advocate for harsh penalties for repeat offenders to prevent them from returning to criminal activities.
3. Asset Forfeiture: Seizing the assets of those involved in drug trade can, from this perspective, serve as a disincentive and cripple the financial infrastructure of drug markets.

While the law-and-order approach emphasizes stricter penalties and stronger policing to deter criminal activity, critics argue that this method may not address the root causes of drug markets and could disproportionately affect marginalized communities. They point out that a more punitive system may lead to overcrowded prisons without reducing drug abuse or trade in the long term.

The diversity of opinions on this issue reflects its complexity, and it's clear that no one strategy will satisfy everyone. What is apparent is that a multi-faceted problem likely requires a multi-faceted solution, drawing on law enforcement, community investment, and social services to tackle the problem from multiple angles.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

Interesting. Are there any other such cases in UK/Ireland? I'd previously assumed this was an exclusively US issue.

Plenty in Europe. Look up the Platzspitz/Letten situation in Switzerland awhile back, that was the biggest open scene in Europe and conditions were unspeakable.

In my home country of Germany, an area close to the main train station in Frankfurt is absolutely notorious, same goes for Berlin. There's a smaller less obvious but known open drug scene in the town where I used to cop, the police left mostly well alone unless there were fights or somebody was acting up under the influence, because the fuss isn't worth their while and they'd be doing nothing else all day long if they kept going after every single 'drug offense'.

The law is essentially unenforceable unless you wanted to go the 100% totalitarian draconian route and lock up every user.

 

[Serhat]

Plenty in Europe. Look up the Platzspitz/Letten situation in Switzerland awhile back, that was the biggest open scene in Europe and conditions were unspeakable.

In my home country of Germany, an area close to the main train station in Frankfurt is absolutely notorious, same goes for Berlin. There's a smaller less obvious but known open drug scene in the town where I used to cop, the police left mostly well alone unless there were fights or somebody was acting up under the influence, because the fuss isn't worth their while and they'd be doing nothing else all day long if they kept going after every single 'drug offense'.

The law is essentially unenforceable unless you wanted to go the 100% totalitarian draconian route and lock up every user.

You're absolutely right tackling drug-related issues is a messy, complicated business. I mean, what you're describing in places like Frankfurt and Berlin shows that simply arresting everyone isn't a solution. It's like playing whack-a-mole; you might get one person off the streets, but another pops up right away.

It's a real dilemma for the police too. They've got a ton of things to manage, and going after every single drug offense could mean neglecting other critical duties. So it's almost like they have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

Have you heard about Portugal's approach? They decided to treat drug use more as a health issue than a criminal one, offering treatment instead of jail time. The results look promising, which makes you wonder if that could be a better route to go down, at least compared to the "lock 'em all up" strategy.

But yeah, it's a complicated issue without easy answers, especially when every country, or even city, has its own unique set of challenges.

 

[elgoucho9]

Plenty in Europe. Look up the Platzspitz/Letten situation in Switzerland awhile back, that was the biggest open scene in Europe and conditions were unspeakable.

In my home country of Germany, an area close to the main train station in Frankfurt is absolutely notorious, same goes for Berlin. There's a smaller less obvious but known open drug scene in the town where I used to cop, the police left mostly well alone unless there were fights or somebody was acting up under the influence, because the fuss isn't worth their while and they'd be doing nothing else all day long if they kept going after every single 'drug offense'.

The law is essentially unenforceable unless you wanted to go the 100% totalitarian draconian route and lock up every user.

Yeah I thought after I posted this there are definitely open air drug markets in Barcelona and Marseille.

I mean there are areas local to me that are drug hot spots. But nobody is meeting you without phoning through with your order if that makes sense.

I'm pretty sure in Easton, Bristol I was able to score a couple of times without calling up any lines first.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

I'm pretty sure in Easton, Bristol I was able to score a couple of times without calling up any lines first.

I've cold-copped in unfamiliar places in Germany, the UK and France at a pinch.

The 'traditional' street dealing still goes on, you just have to know how to both read and give off the right signals. Frequently on my sporadic visits back to my home country, I just sniff out where the druggies gather, hang around for a bit and invariably some guy I've never interacted with before will approach me wanting to sell.

 

[elgoucho9]

I've cold copped most places I've been to be fair, easily done in any city in the UK. However would we really classify being able to cold cop and an open air drug market as the same thing? The closest I've seen to an open air drug market here in the UK was Easton in Bristol, which it still wasn't an open air market, just more obvious dealing than most places.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

Have you heard about Portugal's approach? They decided to treat drug use more as a health issue than a criminal one, offering treatment instead of jail time. The results look promising, which makes you wonder if that could be a better route to go down, at least compared to the "lock 'em all up" strategy.

I've not just ' heard ' about Portugal's approach ; I'm a drug researcher so I've followed this initiative from the start and studied all the related statistics in- depth. It's a massive step forward but to my mind still far from enough.

You can de-criminalise an individual, ie not punish for possession, procurement or personal use, but as long as the drug itself remains essentially ILLEGAL, the absolute major problems don't go away. You're still leaving criminal cartels with a monopoly on drug production. You're still contending with all the grave consequences that of necessity result from being forced to ingest an illegally produced substance, ie the risk of it being contaminated with fuck knows what and the impossibility of accurate (and therefore safe) dosing. As a street user you can never know the potency nor what's actually in it, even to the point where you can't always be sure your drug even IS what it's being sold as.

To my mind, re-legalization with a state monopoly on production and distribution, under very strict quality control, sale and age-restriction laws, is ultimately the only rational way to go. Humans absolutely will take a variety of mind-altering substances whatever. Best way to handle this and to minimise the associated harm is to STOP handing the market to the criminals, to sell a pharmaceutical-grade product, and to stop either criminalising or pathologising users on the mere basis of their use. (Portugal under current law mandates 'therapy' in place of a criminal sentence and it's expected of you whether you want or require it or not. I do not agree with this.)

 

[Serhat]

I've not just ' heard ' about Portugal's approach ; I'm a drug researcher so I've followed this initiative from the start and studied all the related statistics in depth. It's a massive step forward but to my mind still far from enough.

You can de-criminalise an individual, ie not punish for possession, procurement or personal use, but as long as the drug itself remains essentially ILLEGAL, the absolute major problems don't go away. You're still leaving criminal cartels with a monopoly on drug production. You're still contending with all the grave consequences that of necessity result from being forced to ingest an illegally produced substance, ie the risk of it being contaminated with fuck knows what and the impossibility of accurate (and therefore safe) dosing. As a street user you can never know the potency nor what's actually in it, even to the point where you can't always be sure your drug even IS what it's being sold as.

To my mind, re-legalization with a state monopoly on production and distribution, under very strict quality control, sale and age-restriction laws, is ultimately the only rational way to go. Humans absolutely will take a variety of mind-altering substances whatever. Best way to handle this and to minimise the associated harm is to STOP handing the market to the criminals, to sell a pharmaceutical-grade product, and to stop either criminalising or pathologising users on the mere basis of their use. (Portugal under current law mandates 'therapy' in place of a criminal sentence and it's expected of you whether you want or require it or not. I do not agree with this.)

I get what you're saying. The issue of drug policy isn't just about laws and regulations; it's deeply personal and complex, impacting real lives in often devastating ways. The Portugal model is a step forward, but as you pointed out, it's kind of like putting a Band-Aid on a much larger wound. People are still risking their lives with unsafe, unregulated drugs, and the cartels are making a killing literally and figuratively.

Your idea about a state-run production and distribution system cuts to the core of the issue. It's like saying, "Okay, we know people are going to use these substances. Let's make it as safe as possible for them and take the power away from criminal organizations." This could be a game-changer. And it's not like we don't have a model for this; we regulate alcohol and tobacco, after all. Why should other substances be different, especially when the "war on drugs" has clearly failed to deter usage?

As for the therapy mandate in Portugal, I get your point. It assumes everyone who uses drugs needs psychological help, which is a pretty big assumption. This one-size-fits-all solution doesn't respect people's individual experiences and reasons for using. Therapy might be beneficial for some but unnecessary or even counterproductive for others.

The real change has to come from accepting that humans have used mind-altering substances since forever and will continue to do so. The challenge is how to manage this in a way that's humane, realistic, and based on harm reduction rather than moral panic or criminal punishment. And for that, we'd need to be willing to make some pretty radical changes to how we think about drugs and drug policy.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

And it's not like we don't have a model for this; we regulate alcohol and tobacco, after all. Why should other substances be different, especially when the "war on drugs" has clearly failed to deter usage?

Everytime I argue for legalization, the standard response I tend to get even from people who generally favour the idea is, 'oh but it would be a massive social experiment and nobody knows how that would turn out, so we can't risk it'.


... The 'social experiment' was run for centuries before prohibition, where basically anybody was free to take whatever mind-altering substance they wished in whatever quantities they wished, that was available where they lived.

Result? Yes you had a proportion of problem users (ie addicts) in every population, but that never reached some massive proportion to the point where it was noticed and recognised as a distinct 'social problem' . THAT tellingly only happened following prohibition laws. And to this day the very worst statistics for 'addiction', associated drug crime, social degradation etc reliably correlate with those parts of the world that have the most intolerant drug laws. Clearly something is not merely 'not working' but instead being actively counter-productive.

THE WHOLE WORLD WASN'T ON DRUGS BEFORE PROHIBITION JUST BECAUSE DRUGS WERE AVAILABLE.