What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[unodelacosa]

Methylone. That methylone was good and guess what it smelled like? Safrole.

Yes, safrole has a lot of related compounds that smell similar. Good point.

I spent nearly my entire 18 months sentence in the law library studying federal cases.

Sucks to do time, but at least it sounds like a skid bid in Club Fed compared to others, ya know? I mean, 18 mo.'s in a low security FCI is shitty, but it's not a living hell exactly either. Or was it an FPC? (btw, for everyone else that's "Federal Correctional Institution" and "Federal Prison Camp"; to be compared against USP or "United States Penitentiary"… hard time). Actually that's so short, unless you were out on bond, you maybe served the majority of that time in county?

By law they have to give you full access to all federal cases.

Yeah but that doesn't mean it has to be available to you in a computer terminal format with search capabilities. How sweet is that? Was it Westlaw, LexisNexis, Quicklaw one of those? They're super handy for quickly finding caselaw and determining its relevance and relative legal strength/merits.

And think about it: who would enforce that law? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

These were the big speckled wafers that were prevalent during the late 80s and early 90s. I say all this because those wafers are universally recognized as the best pills ever by all who were fortunate enough to consume them and they were not produced by any complex method or even by particularly advanced chemists.

Disco biscuits, what! And yes, it's not super tricky chemistry. Anyone with the right equipment and basic functional knowledge of first-year orgo. chem lab can bumble their way through some basic procedures to produce MDMA that will knock your fucking socks off. It's all about procuring the right precursors, reagents, and catalysts without attracting unwanted attention. Therein lies the challenge of clandestine chemistry.

The thing those chemists had was unlimited safrole and that allowed them to produce the best material that I have ever done throughout 30 years of taking MDMA.

Having Safrole is pretty clutch, but not entirely necessary.

If you want to know how their story ended the two dudes starting fighting over the girl. She left them and got arrested and then ratted them both out. They are all now free after serving 10 years for the girl and 20 each for the dudes.

Naturally, she's the one who was granted a §5K1.1 after all… what a piece of shit…

The other cases are fascinating and it's way too much to type out here. What I wouldn't give to have access to that database again but of course that would mean being back in that cage.

Or just… you know, paying for your own subscription to the Weslaw database or similar

 

[user666]

Here is an interesting video about the effects of different MDMA analogues:

 

[G_Chem]

I unfortunately was incarcerated for violating the analog act in 2009. Methylone. That methylone was good and guess what it smelled like? Safrole.

I spent nearly my entire 18 months sentence in the law library studying federal cases. By law they have to give you full access to all federal cases. You could type in any keyword and any related cases would come up.

It didn't take me long to find the case of the main supplier of MDMA in the north Texas area in the 80s and 90s. These two chemists and their shared girlfriend were making pretty much everything in the Texas area before it was made illegal. They continued on even after it was made illegal. These were the big speckled wafers that were prevalent during the late 80s and early 90s. Once safrole was made illegal they were forced to move their operation to South America where they had unlimited access to safrole. From what I read they didn't seem particularly advanced in their methodology but they didn't need to be because precursor was unlimited and cheap. I say all this because those wafers are universally recognized as the best pills ever by all who were fortunate enough to consume them and they were not produced by any complex method or even by particularly advanced chemists.

The thing those chemists had was unlimited safrole and that allowed them to produce the best material that I have ever done throughout 30 years of taking MDMA.

If you want to know how their story ended the two dudes starting fighting over the girl. She left them and got arrested and then ratted them both out. They are all now free after serving 10 years for the girl and 20 each for the dudes.

The other cases are fascinating and it's way too much to type out here. What I wouldn't give to have access to that database again but of course that would mean being back in that cage.

Do you recall the synthesis route? Was the reduction Leuckart?

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Do you recall the synthesis route? Was the reduction Leuckart?

-GC

There are some pretty good reads about those three people out of Dallas. I will try to find some links, but I don't remember if they talk about the synthesis method or not.

 

[G_Chem]

There are some pretty good reads about those three people out of Dallas. I will try to find some links, but I don't remember if they talk about the synthesis method or not.

Long time no see, hope you been well

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Long time no see, hope you been well

-GC

Thanks! Not quite sure how so much time went by, but got distracted with other life stuff. Any new or interesting developments recently?

 

[G_Chem]

Thanks! Not quite sure how so much time went by, but got distracted with other life stuff. Any new or interesting developments recently?

Not really.. but I did run into some meh stuff like a month ago. I was rolling on my usual shit and my buddy offered me a booster to which soon as I took it I could taste the difference and sure enough it began killing my roll tremendously. After an hour I took a fat booster of my stuff and was able to bring the roll back. It’s pretty much impossible for my roll to just randomly drop off like that.

I’ve noticed on my few run ins with potential meh that it will kill a roll on good product, and the taste is oddly different.

Like my buddy who gave me that ate some of mine he commented on how bitter and nasty it was in comparison. I might try some of the meh again soon just to see in a sober headspace how it actually tastes.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Not really.. but I did run into some meh stuff like a month ago. I was rolling on my usual shit and my buddy offered me a booster to which soon as I took it I could taste the difference and sure enough it began killing my roll tremendously. After an hour I took a fat booster of my stuff and was able to bring the roll back. It’s pretty much impossible for my roll to just randomly drop off like that.

I’ve noticed on my few run ins with potential meh that it will kill a roll on good product, and the taste is oddly different.

Like my buddy who gave me that ate some of mine he commented on how bitter and nasty it was in comparison. I might try some of the meh again soon just to see in a sober headspace how it actually tastes.

-GC

I have had that experience as well, where the "meh" product gets added into a decent experience and the whole tone of the experience shifts. It really sucks. I only roll a hand full of times in a given year, and there aren't opportunities for "makeup" experiences when the product is bad.

 

[G_Chem]

I have had that experience as well, where the "meh" product gets added into a decent experience and the whole tone of the experience shifts. It really sucks. I only roll a hand full of times in a given year, and there aren't opportunities for "makeup" experiences when the product is bad.

Have you still been trying to get that good experience? Any luck?

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

Have you still been trying to get that good experience? Any luck?

-GC

I have not had many opportunities to use MDMA this year. I had one experience back in February and just used the remainder of some old product that I had. Would like to have another roll at the end of the summer, but not sure how to proceed with that one. Basically, don't have a lot of options left with product procurement. Going to have to really go back to the drawing board there.

I have some old stuff that I did not enjoy that I could attempt to purify, but I don't have much faith that it would help much.

 

[elgoucho9]

Haven't done MDMA in probably 5+ years now I think 2016 was the last time and even then everything around was lacklustre.

I believe since the manufactures shifted from safrole/PMK oil to the analogue PMK-glycidate, it now creates a product that feels like an analogue itself compared to the old skool synthesis.

Notice even marquis reaction nowadays is a much darker colour. Back in the old days good pills/MDMA would turn the marquis purple, rather than jet black.

 

[unodelacosa]

Haven't done MDMA in probably 5+ years now I think 2016 was the last time and even then everything around was lacklustre.

So that was more like 7 years ago and that would've been around the time L.E. managed to disrupt the global supply of MDMA by systematically destroying crops of sassafras growing in a few locations in South America and Western Europe. That supply was eventually replaced within 2 years by new North African sources from what I hear. But no doubt, during that two year spell in the interim there were some imposter substituted phenethylamines some underground chemists attempt to masquerade as MDMA, though it clearly was not. However, I personally haven't seen this problem since that time. Mind you, I'm in the U.S. and based on a few of your spellings I'm guessing you're in the UK (or somewhere that speaks British English parlance, e.g.: "lacklustre", "colour") where I'm less aware of what the MDMA scene is like and cannot speak with confidence on the availability of British MDMA. But since the issue ended in the U.S., at least for yours truly, I've since had molly that was brown, tan, purple, pink, and white, and they've all been of the same high caliber and had me mashed up rolling my tits off.

I believe since the manufactures shifted from safrole/PMK oil to the analogue PMK-glycidate, it now creates a product that feels like an analogue itself compared to the old skool synthesis.

Are you aware that PMK-glycidate is first converted to PMK and then to MDMA? (Piperonyl methyl ketone is also called MDP-2-P). Were you aware that safrole is rearranged to isosafrole and then converted directly to PMK and then MDMA? Removing the glycidate molecule is trivial, but allowed China to ship the chemical since it was not technically PMK yet. While this theory that PMK glycidate is somehow producing the wrong chemical is interesting and has been espoused by others without chemistry backgrounds here and there, this theory does not hold water in my humble opinion when you analyze the chemistry a bit. Can't say for 100% certain, but it just doesn't seem likely to me. I think MDMA is substituted with other, similar-but-inferior, serotonergic stimulants, per usual.

If someone can show me in chemical terms how exactly a clandestine chemist could fuck up synthesizing MDMA specifically from using PMK-glycidate as a precursor instead of PMK or PMK derived from Safrole/Isosafrole, I'm all ears. I just don't see it.

Notice even marquis reaction nowadays is a much darker colour. Back in the old days good pills/MDMA would turn the marquis purple, rather than jet black.

[Le sigh]. Dammit, I just keep explaining the same things to ppl over and over. That's not how presumptive testing works. They're simply binary. It's either that the sample "likely contains" MDMA (or whatever you're testing for) or it doesn't. You cannot infer from the speed of change or the exact hue of the test anything about the tested product beyond this binary. You cannot tell purity, amount, strength/potency, duration, adulterants, etc. We likely will never have this unless and until regulators provide govt. overwatch after we end this dumbass global drug prohibition that ruins more lives than any drugs could.

 

[elgoucho9]

There was no problem with supply here since the last drought around 2009-2010. After that drought there were a few good batches of pills and MDMA but it tailed off quite sharply. Last decent pills I saw were orange Q dances.

Believe what you like nobody is arguing. But I've been doing MDMA since the early 2000's and there's no way the mass prodiced stuff coming out of the Netherlands now is as good as it once was. I've even been at parties and not taken any, and watched other people. Its not the same when everyone is rolling around the floor rather than dancing. I've even tried lower doses of the recent stuff and still no energy, empathy or wanting to dance off it. I'm far from the only one who thinks this. Go and look at the European regional pill discussion thread.

 

[Rectify]

Try this instead

Or for the truly brave

 

[unodelacosa]

Try this instead

Yeah I agree with you. A couple decades ago I made a few small batches of this stuff just because I had access to ethylamine and why not? Looking back, no, it's not as hardcore as MDMA, but that's not always a bad thing. A shorter duration can definitely be preferable at times. [Edit: btw, to anyone reading along not quite sure which drug this is ☞ 3,4-methylenedioxyethylamphetamine, aka: MDE, "Eve", and n-ethyl-MDA.]

Or for the truly brave

Oh Idk about this one, 3,4-dichloromethamphetamine (3,4-DCMA). I don't trust many of the chloro-substituted stimulants due to precedent set by 3-CMC, 4-CMC, 3-CA, 4-CA, 3-CMA, 4-CMA, IIRC… Seems awfully risky unless you know of a study or something proving otherwise. Please do enlighten us if so. I can't find any studies out there, I'm just saying who wants to roll those particular dice, for reals, ya know?

 

[Rectify]

I tried some yesterday. It was nice and milder than I recall. Serene, pretty colors, gentle stimulation.

However, I didn't make it so its identity is not 100% certain. Infuriating, I know.

 

[user666]

If the conversion of PMK Glycidate to PMK is not 100% efficient then some PMK Glycidate is left in the reaction vessel.
If this unreacted precursor is not removed completely by the subsequent workup, it can get amidated and its epoxy ring can be opened by subsequent reaction with Methylamine, generating M-ALPHA-HMCA as a contaminant.
A reaction with dimethylamine will produce another variant.

If someone can show me in chemical terms how exactly a clandestine chemist could fuck up synthesizing MDMA specifically from using PMK-glycidate as a precursor instead of PMK or PMK derived from Safrole/Isosafrole, I'm all ears. I just don't see it.

 

[JackARoe]

But I've been doing MDMA since the early 2000's and there's no way the mass prodiced stuff coming out of the Netherlands now is as good as it once was. I've even been at parties and not taken any, and watched other people. Its not the same when everyone is rolling around the floor rather than dancing.

I had read every angle of this thread just for knowledge. I have not really had MDMA for 40 years proper. 3 times since, last time 2008. The pill was good, from a trusted friend but only about 90-100mgs it felt like. But the way you typed that makes me think there are changes with MDMA beyond the usual variables. I always thought the stuff from the Netherlands was the best stuff these days? But that statement has me rethinking.

I think the sassafras issue may factor in, as well as all the other variables like tolerance, adulterated, and just not good stuff. But this is the first I think I heard Netherlands stuff also has issues but is valid MDMA?

Looks like this thread needs another 100 pages. Thank you Uno for playing devils advocate (along with chemistry knowledge). Thanks G-Chem, deep organized digs into what this could be from a synth perspective. Everyone else too. I know there is a lot of back and forth with opinions. I will say this, I can not imagine expecting to feel genuine MDMA and getting half effects leaving me to wonder what is going on. I'll let you all do that. Someday I hold hope of genuine valid MDMA being more available than it is today. Possibly legally. I know there is still good stuff by the posts here. But it also seems like a crap shoot.

 

[user666]

Have you read the other thread as well ?

I had read every angle of this thread just for knowledge.

 

[JackARoe]

Have you read the other thread as well ?

Yipper, read that too. I find the topic fascinating, hope there’s a resolution to all this at some point.