arrall said:
There’s more to attraction and sexuality than what’s between a person’s legs.
I’ve never understood the right’s obsession with genitals in this debate.
Maybe insecurity around the size of their penises?
You're introducing genitals into the debate as much as I am by showing photos of trans men and saying that you're straight if you're attracted to them, because the obvious unavoidable next step of that discussion is genitals.
You seem to be suggesting - with those photos - that clothes and surgery and make-up / hairstyle is
more significant than genitals when it comes to sexuality. I am on the other side of the coin. Genitals are far more relevant.
This comes back (again) to gender and sex being muddied.
There is attraction in terms of gender expression (make up, hair, etc) and there's attraction in terms of biological sex. The latter is where traditional understanding of sexuality comes from. Some of us are born attracted to men. Some of us are born attracted to women.
If gender and sex aren't the same thing, let's talk about them separately. You can't have it both ways.
Gender attraction (is there a term for that?) is a thing. Some gay guys don't like feminine/camp guys, no matter how hot they are. They like their "men to be men". Some lesbians like butch girls. Some don't.
Genitals are unavoidably at the centre of this topic because we're talking about sex.
Those images of trans women may well be attractive to most straight guys here (I don't know, maybe not) but do they continue to appeal to them after these "girls" take their dick out? Or, they hear them speak and the illusion shatters when they realize they don't sound like a woman. They sound like a trans woman.
The idea that it is possible for a straight man to have a long-term relationship with a trans woman who still - has a full set of cock and balls - is beyond ludicrous. People wouldn't have accepted it as satire years ago, but now it is mainstream opinion. It's quite disturbing to witness, honestly.
I'm not obsessed with genitals. It's such a bullshit move to say that to me when we're discussing whether or not it's possible for 100% straight men to love sucking cocks. That's the topic at hand. I'm not obsessed. I'm not being crude. I'm just not beating around the bush... This is what we're talking about.
If you're suggesting we need to redefined homosexuality, then say that. Let's not pretend that being a gay man has always included cunnilingus.
Let's not pretend it is a fact all of a sudden that lots of women are anatomically male and it makes perfect sense to conduct experiments on children and generally play God with human gender.
arrall said:
Those photos were to demonstrate that trans people CAN and often do look identical to cis people of their gender despite being born as the opposite sex.
Not that all trans people will automatically look like that.
But they don't pass when they talk off their pants, so that whole point falls apart.
I have high cheekbones. I used to have long hair, before it all fell out. I could have passed for female if I spent a bit of time doing make-up and shaved my legs, etc... Doesn't mean sucking my dick is a heterosexual act. If I'm a man,
nothing makes that a heterosexual act. It is by definition homosexual.
Post-op trans woman with a vagina that looks identical to a real vagina (never seen that, from what I've seen they usually look like a mess): maybe that's not gay? I don't see why it is, but it's still not 100% straight either because people who identify as 100% straight mostly wouldn't want to have sex with someone like that and - if we're going to embrace people being who they are - you can't rightly tell them how to define their own identity.
But it also depends on how far they are into transitioning and what sort of medical treatment they have been able to get.
Most trans people I’ve met who are 5+ years into transitioning DO look like that.
A trans male friend of mine has almost as much hair on his legs as I have on my entire body.
I don’t think that focusing on “passing” or looking like that is a useful or productive place to focus the argument though, so let’s move on.
Trans men tend to look more convincing than trans women, but there is almost always something off. I can usually tell. When I suspect people are trans, they almost always turn out to be trans... One of the images you posted is a trans male porn star because he's
so convincing. I originally assumed he was a guy who had A+ bottom surgery and continued to dress/present as male.
I don’t understand where and why you draw the line with genitals.
See, you're going back to genitals again. Like I said, neither of us are obsessed. That's just the topic.
If a trans man puts on a strap on and fucks you with it, is it still straight?
I don't really consider pegging to be particularly gay/straight. I understand how other people do. That's just not how I view it. Same thing with handjobs/blowjobs/etc. These are more bisexual/pansexual acts in terms of how I think about sex. (I don't personally see the problem with bisexuality being replaced with pansexuality. I don't know the difference.)
I don't really care about labels. They're not precious to me. They're more like the best we can do. They're adequate as reference points, but experience varies so much and our definitions don't always align either.
The act of having a phallus being inserted up your ass (particularly if the strap-on is shaped like a penis) is obviously a bit gay, even if a woman is doing it, because your simulating gay anal sex.
What if he has had a sex change operation and it’s an actual penis?
I don't view it as an actual penis. It is a fleshy strap-on.
Is it still heterosexual in your eyes for a man to get fucked with a penis just because the person whom the penis belongs to has the wrong chromosomes?
I honestly don't have the answers to all your questions worked out, because (despite you thinking I'm obsessed) I don't spend a lot of time devoted to this sort of thing.
We have different opinions of what a penis is. You're redefining terms.
A post-op trans man's "penis" is something. I see how fleshy strap-on might be offensive. I wasn't trying to be offensive. Just trying to illustrate my point. My natural style is to communicate without filters and I don't see why I should have to bend to neurotypical expectations my whole life. Not saying you suggested otherwise. Just in a weird headspace, I guess.
It's something, but it isn't a penis.
A trans-penis, perhaps?
I don't see them as the same thing - most people don't - so there needs to be different terms, in order to avoid confusion in discussions such as these.
Heaven forbid we talk about genitals too much and we all go to hell.
