Bupe I'm terrified of taking Subox for maintenance. Please tell me what it's really like.

[Juicewrldfan]

I can actually see this point, because I myself am there, but with Oxy/Hydro.

I am fortunate to have a great career and it affords me a level of expendable income that has allowed access to real (not fake fentanyl) pills that most people can't attain. But with this access came the realization that I don't like what it's done to me, I don't enjoy the experience any longer, and I'm only taking it because I fear withdrawals and the mental anguish that comes with it.

If withdrawal was just physical I could easily do this but it's the mental side of things that really scares me. I become very depressed and even start questioning the worth of my own existence when I am in withdrawal. I've never made it past 36 hours going cold turkey.

The other side of having a career like I do is that I can't take 30 days off and go to rehab so I have to take these other options and do the best I can to get to a place where withdrawals or manageable. Suboxone or Sublicade are the best options for me at the moment.



I'm in California so they do hand this out like candy and I probably have a 3-month supply of this stuff just sitting around that I've never touched. And I say 3 month supply based off of 2 mg three times a day for 3 months.


My goal would be to be on this medication for no more than 4 months and I'm being realistic because the actual treatment is supposed to be 3 months and one week. One week of Suboxone pills to stabilize and then 3 months getting one injection per month of Sublicade.

My issue is that the dosages doctors recommend are all over the board, so I don't really know what would be effective and if it's 2 mg a day that would be great. But if it's 6 mg a day that's a different story.

I would love to hear what dosages actually work for people on here and if there's a schedule that also is helpful I would love to hear about that too.

Thank you to everyone for their input and replies. You all have been immensely helpful.

So as someone else said less is usually more with suboxone. 4mg sublingual is perfect for most people. Doctors do overprescribe and I too believe that that is due to them wanting better blocking of opiates.

I’ll be honest. I didn’t need to dose more than once a day. I do not suggest the shots. They have their benefits BUT with the films you can decide your dose. It gives you more control over your treatment. While I do suggest considering a good doctors advice, most doctors just take a short certification class to prescribe this and it’s information is all wrong as far as dosing goes.

So maybe I’m the beginning you may need 4mg twice a day but I really do not think you will. I’d say just dose when you absolutely have to and use the least amount that you need. If you feel like you can’t function due to physical withdrawal go ahead and dose a small amount. Or if you feel too intense cravings go ahead and dose a small amount, however I really don’t think anyone needs to go above two times a day.

I dosed at once a day and I was an iv user. In the beginning I dosed twice a day though.

I think three months is fine just as long as you have a firm plan to come off after that. For one you don’t want to ruin your opiate tolerance more than you already have. I regret being on suboxone for 5 years but i listened to the bullshit the doctors were spewing.

As far as subs ruining your teeth, just take care of your teeth is all. Personally, I was on it for 5 years and my teeth are fine. Now people that aren’t brushing their teeth regularly may encounter issues but I mean that’s the same if you drink acidic drinks regularly over years and don’t brush your teeth.

I really don’t get how it’s ruining ppl teeth when it goes under your tongue and I didn’t ever let it really touch my teeth. Like I wasn’t swishing it around in my mouth. It’s not necessary to do that. Also, unless you are sensitive to naloxone, I wouldn’t worry of it has it or not. Pretty much the same exact effect. Not only that but some believe low dose naloxone is good to take with opioids to keep tolerance down. But idk how true that is. I’m just saying don’t worry about it.

I usually don’t recommend ppl go on suboxone but I’m your case it very well may be life changing.

I’ve been on methadone as well before and if I had to pick between the two I would choose suboxone all day every day. Methadone clinics suck so bad. Daily in person dosing and also methadone only outshines suboxone pain wise. Suboxone very well can hold the majority of people and even IV users such as myself. It’s just a better drug in every aspect except pain than methadone. And I believe methadone withdrawals are worse. It’s a full agonist…but better pain treatment doesn’t always mean better mental improvement/mood lift.

Suboxone is just more functional in every way unless you have extreme pain issues.

Also, in case you are wondering, I’m not suggesting this but I jumped off of suboxone at 4mg and I had no withdrawals. Now people are going to say I’m lying but I’m not. And I wasn’t taking anything else at the time. I’m not saying to do that at all. What I am saying is don’t fear the withdrawal of subs. You can always take more if you need to when your ready to come off.

It has a longer half life than most and usually that means the withdrawal is longer but weaker than fast acting opioids. That’s my experience anyway. And I do believe some ppl get sick from withdrawing from subs but they likely didn’t taper. I’m an outlier so don’t use me as an example. Taper…

However, placebo is a very very powerful thing. So are psychosomatic illnesses. Basically if you just read horror atories of withdrawal from buprenorphine then they are likely going to be very bad. The mind is very powerful. Now there is a biological standpoint that does support getting sick from bios withdrawal but I just think much of the horror stories are all psychosomatic IF they tapered.

So take that with a grain of salt, but I just wanted to share that my withdrawal from subs was nothing…

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

So as someone else said less is usually more with suboxone. 4mg sublingual is perfect for most people. Doctors do overprescribe and I too believe that that is due to them wanting better blocking of opiates.

I’ll be honest. I didn’t need to dose more than once a day. I do not suggest the shots. They have their benefits BUT with the films you can decide your dose. It gives you more control over your treatment. While I do suggest considering a good doctors advice, most doctors just take a short certification class to prescribe this and it’s information is all wrong as far as dosing goes.

So maybe I’m the beginning you may need 4mg twice a day but I really do not think you will. I’d say just dose when you absolutely have to and use the least amount that you need. If you feel like you can’t function due to physical withdrawal go ahead and dose a small amount. Or if you feel too intense cravings go ahead and dose a small amount, however I really don’t think anyone needs to go above two times a day.

I dosed at once a day and I was an iv user. In the beginning I dosed twice a day though.

I think three months is fine just as long as you have a firm plan to come off after that. For one you don’t want to ruin your opiate tolerance more than you already have. I regret being on suboxone for 5 years but i listened to the bullshit the doctors were spewing.

As far as subs ruining your teeth, just take care of your teeth is all. Personally, I was on it for 5 years and my teeth are fine. Now people that aren’t brushing their teeth regularly may encounter issues but I mean that’s the same if you drink acidic drinks regularly over years and don’t brush your teeth.

I really don’t get how it’s ruining ppl teeth when it goes under your tongue and I didn’t ever let it really touch my teeth. Like I wasn’t swishing it around in my mouth. It’s not necessary to do that. Also, unless you are sensitive to naloxone, I wouldn’t worry of it has it or not. Pretty much the same exact effect. Not only that but some believe low dose naloxone is good to take with opioids to keep tolerance down. But idk how true that is. I’m just saying don’t worry about it.

I usually don’t recommend ppl go on suboxone but I’m your case it very well may be life changing.

I’ve been on methadone as well before and if I had to pick between the two I would choose suboxone all day every day. Methadone clinics suck so bad. Daily in person dosing and also methadone only outshines suboxone pain wise. Suboxone very well can hold the majority of people and even IV users such as myself. It’s just a better drug in every aspect except pain than methadone. And I believe methadone withdrawals are worse. It’s a full agonist…but better pain treatment doesn’t always mean better mental improvement/mood lift.

Suboxone is just more functional in every way unless you have extreme pain issues.

Also, in case you are wondering, I’m not suggesting this but I jumped off of suboxone at 4mg and I had no withdrawals. Now people are going to say I’m lying but I’m not. And I wasn’t taking anything else at the time. I’m not saying to do that at all. What I am saying is don’t fear the withdrawal of subs. You can always take more if you need to when your ready to come off.

It has a longer half life than most and usually that means the withdrawal is longer but weaker than fast acting opioids. That’s my experience anyway. And I do believe some ppl get sick from withdrawing from subs but they likely didn’t taper. I’m an outlier so don’t use me as an example. Taper…

However, placebo is a very very powerful thing. So are psychosomatic illnesses. Basically if you just read horror atories of withdrawal from buprenorphine then they are likely going to be very bad. The mind is very powerful. Now there is a biological standpoint that does support getting sick from bios withdrawal but I just think much of the horror stories are all psychosomatic IF they tapered.

So take that with a grain of salt, but I just wanted to share that my withdrawal from subs was nothing…

Thanks for your input Juice, very helpful.

My reasoning for wanting to do the shot is that once I get it I can't go back meaning I won't be able to just stop and give up and continue using oxy, I'm using it more as a sobriety tool than a convenience thing.

Since I've been doing this for so long, relapse also worries me even though I don't want to do that, like you said, the brain is a powerful thing.

I did look at methadone for a quick minute but the way that works and going to someplace every day just was not for me. I also don't want to be hooked on that stuff and I can deal with my pain, I'm definitely way beyond just pain killing at this point. It's definitely a problem.

I'm curious, how long did you wait between your last dose of your DOC and then your first dose of Suboxone? I've heard that precipitated withdrawal is a major concern and I can normally go 24 hours and still feel pretty fine. So I'm wondering if that's because they're still so much in my system that I would get precipitated withdrawals anyways or if I would be okay?

Again, thank you for your input here.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I'm not really looking to get high off it, I just want to live my life and not have withdrawals.

When you say 2mg, do you mean per day or per dose and multiple doses per day?

Sorry, just trying to understand.

2 mg at once.

And fine you we be high if you have a tolerance …just "weller" because you can expect to feel somewhat shitty when you switch to bupe for the first week

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

2 mg at once.

And fine you we be high if you have a tolerance …just "weller" because you can expect to feel somewhat shitty when you switch to bupe for the first week

Okay, thank you for the info!

Much appreciated

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Actually bupe was at first considered a great stuff to be used in exact way as you did @Juicewrldfan. Stabilizing at minimal dose person can cope with and just a couple weeks on it and following rapid tapper and just “comfort meds” after that.

 

[Opana313]

This is definitely true. It's a phenomenon that I really love to discuss. We have all of these people out here doing Opioids for their entire lives, hustling, stealing, worrying... the majority of these people will never experience the feeling of being free from the worry of their next hit.

I was in Asia teaching and that was my first experience with having ready access to as much drugs as I wanted with money left over to live comfortably. It's only when you're in that position that you can begin to unravel you're true, objective relationship with the drug, outside of other influences like money, the law, family and so on.

I remember using like 5g per day of Morphine/Heroin for 2-3 months while I was there. The Heroin was doing nothing for me. I was just numb. I would wake up from a stupor, do another shot, go back to sleep and it was an endless cycle of that. I remember feeling panicked when I realized I felt shitty inside and out and that there was no amount of Heroin that could take these feelings away. It's an experience a lot of people in the United States will never have.

I discuss the idea of Heroin prescription programs with people and most laugh at the idea that a person on Heroin would decide on their own to stop using Heroin, but it happens. This sort of self-searching is something that is impossible to do when you're doing the full-time job of hustling to stay afloat.

Wow this is VERY interesting.

Reminds me of this book by Crowley...this couple with H & C addiction had unlimited amounts after being taken to a remote mountainous location and looked after(all he asked of them was to mark on calendar how many times they simply wanted or needed to take the next dose.) It was not in his interest to stop them but to help them master themselves.

In short, it kind of aligns with what you said above. Their was no other thing to do but just eventually stop on their own out of bordem. Something along those lines.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Actually bupe was at first considered a great stuff to be used in exact way as you did @Juicewrldfan. Stabilizing at minimal dose person can cope with and just a couple weeks on it and following rapid tapper and just “comfort meds” after that.

It’s also used as purely a pain management drug in transdermal delivery butrans

The way America is going bupe is basically the only pain management drug even the worst cases of dying and diseases ppl will receive…until the bump it up to schedule 2 which i guarantee is going to happen.

Then nursing homes and palliative care will become thriving markets for illicit fentanyl

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

I'm not really looking to get high off it, I just want to live my life and not have withdrawals.

OK there you go. THERE'S YOUR DESIRED OBJECTIVE.


You are no longer looking to get high off the drugs. But you fear withdrawal.

Withdrawal can be extremely unpleasant but it's not gonna actually kill you unless you have some VERY severe cardiac or neurological condition.

If you no longer crave the drug, AND you 'just wanna live your life' unencumbered by substance dependence, you can literally just DO it. Your body does not 'need' it.

It has integrated the substance into the way it functions, yes; and it will be severely objecting when you withdraw ; but it doesn't require dope the way a diabetic's body requires insulin.
You may experience a psychological effect where you feel very down and depressed after quitting opiates, which is a predictable process. On average it takes your brain to re-set to normal dopamine production in a time- frame of 14 months to 2 years. During this period you may require anti-depressants.

But seriously, if you no longer have an emotional attachment to your drug, you can absolutely JUST QUIT using and get on with your life. Thousands of people have done just that. Don't make it harder and more complicated for yourself than it has to be.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

OK there you go. THERE'S YOUR DESIRED OBJECTIVE.



You are no longer looking to get high off the drugs. But you fear withdrawal.

Withdrawal can be extremely unpleasant but it's not gonna actually kill you unless you have some VERY severe cardiac or neurological condition.

If you no longer crave the drug, AND you 'just wanna live your life' unencumbered by substance dependence, you can literally just DO it. Your body does not 'need' it.

It has integrated the substance into the way it functions, yes; and it will be severely objecting when you withdraw ; but it doesn't require dope the way a diabetic's body requires insulin.
You may experience a psychological effect where you feel very down and depressed after quitting opiates, which is a predictable process. On average it takes your brain to re-set to normal dopamine production in a time frame of 14 months to 2 years. During this period you may require anti-depressants.

But seriously, if you no longer have an emotional attachment to your drug, you can absolutely JUST QUIT using and get on with your life. Thousands of people have done just that. Don't make it harder and more complicated for yourself than it has to be.

So you're saying just go cold turkey?

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

So you're saying just go cold turkey?

No, I'm saying go easy on yourself and taper.
No need to make it harder.

I AM saying that if you have no more mental attachment to the drug then getting over the physical withdrawal WILL sort you out.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

Do you still crave the drug effects? (you do not seem to).

Are you frightened of withdrawal? (it doesn't have to be so bad).

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

No, I'm saying go easy on yourself and taper.
No need to make it harder.

I AM saying that if you have no more mental attachment to the drug then getting over the physical withdrawal WILL sort you out.

Now that makes sense. Thanks for the advice.

I'm going to try and start Bupe this weekend I think.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

Do you still crave the drug effects? (you do not seem to).

Are you frightened of withdrawal? (it doesn't have to be so bad).

I don't crave the effects, can't even get to a fun point with them any more considering my tolerance.

Very scared of withdrawals. More the mental/depression/anxiety side than the physical discomfort.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

I don't crave the effects, can't even get to a fun point with them any more considering my tolerance.

With that, you've already reached a point that a lot of users never get to. That's to say you're capable of objectively assessing the benefits of your use and weighing those up against the costs.

If it helps, reaching a point in my heroin use where I was taking about the maximum amount my body could handle without it producing the desired effect, was where I turned myself around.

Very scared of withdrawals. More the mental/depression/anxiety side than the physical discomfort.

Firstly, all the drug movies greatly exaggerate the distress, and a lot of it is psychosomatic. If you start telling yourself the second you begin to sweat, or feel that first little twinge of nausea, what an intolerable hell it's going to be from now, you can be sure you will experience it that way.

With regards to the mental side, it's kind of unavoidable because you've created an imbalance in your brain chemistry. But if you manage to regard this as just one more predictable logical consequence of your actions, and keep in mind it won't be forever, and get whatever therapeutic / medical support you need, then it's perfectly possible to get past THAT, as well.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

With that, you've already reached a point that a lot of users never get to. That's to say you're capable of objectively assessing the benefits of your use and weighing those up against the costs.

If it helps, reaching a point in my heroin use where I was taking about the maximum amount my body could handle without it producing the desired effect, was where I turned myself around.

Firstly, all the drug movies greatly exaggerate the distress, and a lot of it is psychosomatic. If you start telling yourself the second you begin to sweat, or feel that first little twinge of nausea, what an intolerable hell it's going to be from now, you can be sure you will experience it that way.

With regards to the mental side, it's kind of unavoidable because you've created an imbalance in your brain chemistry. But if you manage to regard this as just one more predictable logical consequence of your actions, and keep in mind it won't be forever, and get whatever therapeutic / medical support you need, then it's perfectly possible to get past THAT, as wel

If you don't mind me asking, did you also use Suboxone to work towards sobriety? Or what did you do or use that worked?
Any groups or therapies that you tried?

Thanks for taking the time to talk about this with me.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

If you don't mind me asking, did you also use Suboxone to work towards sobriety?

No. I was on methadone for a while, which was mandated and not of my own choice, and I actively disliked the effects. I am also not 'sober'. My drug use just doesn't interfere with the quality of my life anymore.

Or what did you do or use that worked?

I learnt the science about what drugs can and cannot do by their pharmacological properties. (They can get me high but they can't physically compel me to use them.)

I met ex-addicts who were contentedly abstinent without a constant struggle against themselves.
I met ex-addicts who had returned to moderation and maintained it easily and without internal conflict.

Any groups or therapies that you tried?

The ones I was sent to only made me feel helpless and trapped, because I was indoctrinated with the idea that I suffered from a 'chronic disease', that substances could literally own and 'enslave' me as though a simple chemical was some demonic entity, and that I was somehow fatally flawed and forever dependent on something outside of myself to 'fix' me.

The most empowering message I ever heard was that NOTHING outside of my own mind can 'make' me do drugs. That my drug use doesn't have spurious 'causes', instead it has REASONS. Reasons which I can logically comprehend, give myself compassion for, and then am free also to challenge; thereby giving them less weight and less determination over my actions.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

No. I was on methadone for a while, which was mandated and not of my own choice, and I actively disliked the effects. I am also not 'sober'. My drug use just doesn't interfere with the quality of my life anymore.

I learnt the science about what drugs can and cannot do by their pharmacological properties. (They can get me high but they can't physically compel me to use them.)

I met ex-addicts who were contentedly abstinent without a constant struggle against themselves.
I met ex-addicts who had returned to moderation and maintained it easily and without internal conflict.


The ones I was sent to only made me feel helpless and trapped, because I was indoctrinated with the idea that I suffered from a 'chronic disease', that substances could literally own and 'enslave' me as though a simple chemical was some demonic entity, and that I was somehow fatally flawed and forever dependent on something outside of myself to 'fix' me.

The most empowering message I ever heard was that NOTHING outside of my own mind can 'make' me do drugs. That my drug use doesn't have spurious 'causes', instead it has REASONS. Reasons which I can logically comprehend, give myself compassion for, and then am free also to challenge; thereby giving them less weight and less determination over my actions.

I guess I should say that I'm also not trying to be totally sober, The occasional beverage or a couple hits of weed is all I'm after. But I am trying to be sober from opiates so that is what I am meaning.

My issue is that I struggle with regulation and not chasing that feeling up until recently when I've just grown tired of the struggle of finding stuff and not being able to safely take enough to get the feeling I'm after anyways to where I'm just annoyed with the whole idea.

I do therapy and I also just got a prescription for antidepressants which I labeled above in this thread of what they are if you're curious.

But this is a change I really want to make. Not only for myself but also for my family. I want to get off the bus.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

My issue is that I struggle with regulation and not chasing that feeling

Yes, I have a very impulsive nature as well.

I've just grown tired of the struggle

Sure.

But this is a change I really want to make.

There you go!!

I'm not saying that guarantees you an easy passage (it doesn't), but just being certain it's what you want FOR YOURSELF really is important and will skew the odds in your favour.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

Yes, I have a very impulsive nature as well.

Sure.

There you go!!

I'm not saying that guarantees you an easy passage (it doesn't), but just being certain it's what you want FOR YOURSELF really is important and will skew the odds in your favour.

Thank you for your advice and input. It is greatly appreciated.

Curious to know if you have any insight into the safety of a low dose of bupe and a little bit of Xanax? is it like even the tiniest bit of Xanax will kill me? Or could it be occasionally used for its anxiety purpose in a quarter of a milligram to a half milligram dosage?

I do not abuse Xanax in any way. I literally only take it as needed and that is very rare. But I want to make sure that if I do have a need for it I could take it without dying if I am on Suboxone

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

Thank you for your advice and input. It is greatly appreciated.

Curious to know if you have any insight into the safety of a low dose of bupe and a little bit of Xanax? is it like even the tiniest bit of Xanax will kill me? Or could it be occasionally used for its anxiety purpose in a quarter of a milligram to a half milligram dosage?

I do not abuse Xanax in any way. I literally only take it as needed and that is very rare. But I want to make sure that if I do have a need for it I could take it without dying if I am on Suboxone

Sorry, I'm prescribed Xanax but never been on bupe. Cannot advise you correctly about their possible interactions.