Esoteric Why is writing on psychedelics so weak?

[Ismene2]

I suppose it's possible but I wouldn't say that's quite what I meant, to me the significance of the burning bush story was the fact that the bush was burning but not consumed and what that symbolizes whereas I assume if you were to smoke acacia seeds they would be consumed.

I was thinking more along the lines of how religions began. For example, in an ancient hunter gatherer group you might have a medicine man or shaman who is responsible for the spiritual well-being of the group, often times making use of various plants for healing and communing with the spirit world. In fact, most of the natural psychedelics have long histories of such uses and were generally used in some sort of ritualized setting within the societies that used them. Naturally, insights and information gained during these experiences would influence the thinking of the participants thus impacting their world views and whatever sort of cosmology or religious understanding they would ultimately pass down.

As for where did all the "authoritarian "do as i say or die" shit" come from do you really need to ask? Most obvious would be the desire to control other people. The bigger a religion gets and the further away it gets from its original founder(s) the more it becomes useful as a political tool. Even on a very small scale there is no shortage of cult leaders that desire to gather followers around them and then exert control over them.

Then of course there's also a sincere desire to warn other people that doing some things might be a bad idea and lead one to their death. For example on here we have a lot of people warning others not to start shooting heroin. Is that because they are authoritarian or is it because they noticed through their own experience that going down that path often leads to destruction and death? Of course in religion, there is a lot more superstition mixed in but generally speaking I think one could argue a lot of the things religions warn against actually are based on observations people made over time about what sorts of actions lead to problems down the line. For example, Buddhists might warn us not to use opiates because they lead to sluggishness of mind and insatiable craving. Can anyone here argue that's not at least somewhat true? Similarly with things like sex before marriage, it might seem completely innocent at first but over the long haul one might find that if they spend their youth having sex with lots of people then as they get older they find it more difficult to pair bond and the temporary thrill they got from sleeping around wasn't as full-filling as they thought it would be. Observations like this can get encoded into religions. Historically, religion and culture were often much more intertwined than they are today.

Isn't religion's origin more likely to be in the primal fear of death? When primitive man saw his family drop dead - isn't that the push to start creating fantasies about where they've gone? That's why you find trinkets in Homo Erectus graves - they didn't want to think death was the end. I think that's why all societies have some kind of religion - even the ones that don't have access to psychedelic plants.

I can see psychedelics might affect some people in a religious way but even today the number of people who are interested in taking psychedelics is vanishingly small. Even when we know they are harmless. I remember reading about Maria Sabina - she was the only gay in the village...sorry..the only woman in the village who took mushrooms and she was basically shunned as a wierdo and a freak by the rest of the village. She wasn't some popular person at all - a few people went to her for medical help or to see if she could predict the future for them but they wern't sat round in a group hug.

 

[JackARoe]

If it were just figuring out the need to be kind, they would not differentiate between saints and enlightened beings.

Interesting, I have to think about that. I do admit I don’t know much. I still do not know what an enlightened being is. This is after reading Autobiography of a Yogi 3 times in 30 years. While I know how realizations can help us reach a state of peace, I still do not know the measurement of someone who is "enlightened" and someone who is "not as enlightened". In a way I can see it, and I do realize I am dumbing this down but to me is still a valid thing to ask for proof for. And as we know for spiritual things proof is not always available leading us to rest on our other default. Faith.

When it comes to some Hindus and Buddhists, the states of peace that they reach are fascinating. I think if there were full proof techniques to reach those states then more people would strive. The techniques given are intense and not really practical for someone living in a city in 2022. At least not to my dumb ass. (I should only speak for me)

Is mahasamadhi real?

 

[Ismene2]

I've never actually seen an enlightened being either - they all have feet of clay. You find out he was fucking a 12 year old or something. I've asked "Can you point out a living geezer who is supposed to be enlightened for me?" and some say "Oh, the dali lama" - nah, he pissed off with all the gold when he left Tibet - the helicopter could hardly get off the fucking ground it had so much gold he'd robbed from the Tibetans in it.

 

[burn out]

Isn't religion's origin more likely to be in the primal fear of death? When primitive man saw his family drop dead - isn't that the push to start creating fantasies about where they've gone? That's why you find trinkets in Homo Erectus graves - they didn't want to think death was the end. I think that's why all societies have some kind of religion - even the ones that don't have access to psychedelic plants.

But isn't that a pretty gross over simplification? It's like saying the origin of medicine was ancient peoples' fear of death and disease. Well, duh but that doesn't tell us anything specific about how early medical practices were developed, other than to imply they were just made up out of thin air. Now of course, some of them probably were but there was also experimentation, theory, debate, passing on of knowledge, etc. People would notice the effects various herbs had on the body and then share that knowledge with others for example, and then someone might realize that one particular herb was beneficial to a particular ailment and a body of knowledge began to be formed. I think the same is likely true for religion, with psychedelics playing a role but also other techniques such as meditation, fasting, prayer, various yogic practices as well as spontaneous spiritual experiences. Consider also there are religions, such as certain sects of Judaism that do not have a belief in an afterlife. If the whole point of religion was based in creating fantasies about where one's loved one had gone, why would people create religions that didn't have much of anything to say about that? Also, religions like Buddhism which teach that there is no enduring self, are not very comforting to one who wants an assurance of continued existence.

I can see psychedelics might affect some people in a religious way but even today the number of people who are interested in taking psychedelics is vanishingly small. Even when we know they are harmless.

I disagree both that a "vanishingly small" number of people are interested in using psychedelics and that they are harmless, but whatever if you consider millions upon millions of people a vanishingly small number I don't know what to tell you.

I remember reading about Maria Sabina - she was the only gay in the village...sorry..the only woman in the village who took mushrooms and she was basically shunned as a wierdo and a freak by the rest of the village. She wasn't some popular person at all - a few people went to her for medical help or to see if she could predict the future for them but they wern't sat round in a group hug.

So? I don't know what you read, she was a well regarded healer from what I know and after Gordon Wasson publushed the essay about her people came from all over the world to see her. But what is your point here anyway? Not everyone wants to take psychedelics. So What?

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

Yeah - the hindu side of things was where George Harrison went wasn't it - but I could never accept the caste system - it's like something out of Mein Kampf. And the buddhists? They were bullwhipping the native Tibetans and lording it over them as their feudal masters for 900 years. Lots of meditation but if you were starving and pinched one of their goats they tied you down and gouged your eyes out. Will they show us the route to enlightenment? I doubt it.

The caste system was in place in South Asia for Centuries before any Europeans really went there or set up colonies and it varies from country/region/modern day state. They claim it is illegal and demolished now, but is it really? I have Hindu friends but they are not into any drugs and do not even drink or use medical marijuana or hashish at all. I have asked them about the caste system and they said how it is basically still around in many ways at least socially and in basically almost all South Asian countries and religions. There are also sub-castes and also clans but they are not like the very old clans from Ireland and the UK. I asked an Indian friend why so many Sikhs have the last name Singh and she said it is basically a clan, and that many join the Indian army, work as police or in security, etc. @yubacity can explain more.

People don't have professions based on their caste, however a very high % of people still practice the social aspects of the caste system, while untouchability isn't as prevalent, but when it comes to things like marriage, friend groups and having staff for home or business people do prefer castes that are equal to them. I know an Indian businessman who because of his caste he refuses to take out trash to the bin and he hires someone else to do this for him.

The more developed a city the less this occurs however inter-caste marriage is still seen as not always being favourable, and also political parties also base their identities on caste so it has turned into a vicious symbiotic cycle where having the caste system helps the cause of the political parties who then offer 'solution' to the problem they do not have an intention of solving.

For the original topic: Psychedelic drug experiences are best described not with navel gazing but by actually experiencing them, maybe with music or film, and not thinking that they give you some secret to life or make you better off than anyone else who has never taken them or is not into tripping. Ken Kesey, Leary, Ram Dass, and later the McKennas and Shulgins were all into abuse/excess of psychedelics and products of the 1960s and loved their fame and $$$.

 

[yubacity]

The caste system was in place in South Asia for Centuries before any Europeans really went there or set up colonies and it varies from country/region/modern day state. They claim it is illegal and demolished now, but is it really? I have Hindu friends but they are not into any drugs and do not even drink or use medical marijuana or hashish at all. I have asked them about the caste system and they said how it is basically still around in many ways at least socially and in basically almost all South Asian countries and religions. There are also sub-castes and also clans but they are not like the very old clans from Ireland and the UK. I asked an Indian friend why so many Sikhs have the last name Singh and she said it is basically a clan, and that many join the Indian army, work as police or in security, etc. @yubacity can explain more.

People don't have professions based on their caste, however a very high % of people still practice the social aspects of the caste system, while untouchability isn't as prevalent, but when it comes to things like marriage, friend groups and having staff for home or business people do prefer castes that are equal to them. I know an Indian businessman who because of his caste he refuses to take out trash to the bin and he hires someone else to do this for him.

The more developed a city the less this occurs however inter-caste marriage is still seen as not always being favourable, and also political parties also base their identities on caste so it has turned into a vicious symbiotic cycle where having the caste system helps the cause of the political parties who then offer 'solution' to the problem they do not have an intention of solving.

For the original topic: Psychedelic drug experiences are best described not with navel gazing but by actually experiencing them, maybe with music or film, and not thinking that they give you some secret to life or make you better off than anyone else who has never taken them or is not into tripping. Ken Kesey, Leary, Ram Dass, and later the McKennas and Shulgins were all into abuse/excess of psychedelics and products of the 1960s and loved their fame and $$$.

You got most things right my brother just correct a couple of things .
Sikhs were given the name Singh so they would drop their surnames which would show your caste . Sikhism believes there is no caste the old sikh temples would have 4 entrances signifying open to all faiths and castes . We have langar after services where everyone sits on the floor or tables in west and eats together where a king will sit with a pauper because in gods eyes we are not titles or castes but insaan meaning humans . When the emperor Akbar came to visit a guru he had to have langar with everyone else. Sounds good but we have not let go of castes in marriage social settings i stayed a year in Punjab when i was 10 and during harvests we and the other jatts our caste or clan who land owners would have a lot of farm labor all what they call low castes. Food would come from our homes to the farmhouses for us and the workers my grandad never practised this but when I would be with friends I would eat at their farmhouses the low caste workers would have separate dishes and would not sit with us to eat had the same food but would have to sit away from us and not even face us when eating then would have to wash their own dishes they would not even let their dishes touch ours fucking disgusting our faith never taught it but even Punjabi Muslims would be the same and their faith don't teach it .

At one point we were 2 per cent of Indias population but 25 per cent of the army . In my family alone my Granddad fought for the British Indian Army in Burma my Moms dad the same. His brother fought in North Africa and was killed in the Italian campaign my Dad was a Indian paratrooper who fought in the India Pakistan war of 71 so did my Moms brother where he and my dad Swapped turbans meaning they brothers and married my mom so they cement their friendship to family . Sikh Punjabi unlike so many Hindus have huge issues with drug and booze . Punjab has been in a heroin epidemic for 25 years and there is more licensed liquor shops then schools . In my family alone my frandads 2 other brothers were addicted to opium which been there for milenia my dad was a functioning alcholic so was my uncle along with my moms brother i have had meth and heroin addiction since i was 15 now 46 my 2 brothers booze and meth lost many friends including cousins to drink we just drug taking pissheads im lucky never liked drink . I was first given Opium as a baby on a trip to Punjab raw opium was used to treat tummy upset and the shits or if the baby was restless

 

[yubacity]

All sikh temples provide a free kitchen no money needed i tell all addicts here in UK go to sikh temple free food no obligation to pray just no ciggeretes booze or drugs to be taken in some days there is nearly 20 people there noone can be denied it is a house of god we humans cant judge

 

[yubacity]

Some villagesnin rural punjab 70 percent are addicted to hard drugs

 

[Ismene2]

But isn't that a pretty gross over simplification? It's like saying the origin of medicine was ancient peoples' fear of death and disease. Well, duh but that doesn't tell us anything specific about how early medical practices were developed, other than to imply they were just made up out of thin air. Now of course, some of them probably were but there was also experimentation, theory, debate, passing on of knowledge, etc. People would notice the effects various herbs had on the body and then share that knowledge with others for example, and then someone might realize that one particular herb was beneficial to a particular ailment and a body of knowledge began to be formed. I think the same is likely true for religion, with psychedelics playing a role but also other techniques such as meditation, fasting, prayer, various yogic practices as well as spontaneous spiritual experiences. Consider also there are religions, such as certain sects of Judaism that do not have a belief in an afterlife. If the whole point of religion was based in creating fantasies about where one's loved one had gone, why would people create religions that didn't have much of anything to say about that? Also, religions like Buddhism which teach that there is no enduring self, are not very comforting to one who wants an assurance of continued existence.


I disagree both that a "vanishingly small" number of people are interested in using psychedelics and that they are harmless, but whatever if you consider millions upon millions of people a vanishingly small number I don't know what to tell you.



So? I don't know what you read, she was a well regarded healer from what I know and after Gordon Wasson publushed the essay about her people came from all over the world to see her. But what is your point here anyway? Not everyone wants to take psychedelics. So What?

Well, religion is universal. So it has to have it's basis in something with a universal appeal. That means the simpler it is the more successful you will be. You need something everyone is going to feel - like the fear of death. Psychedelics appeal to a vanishingly small number of people so they can't be the basis of religion. If only 2 people out of 10,000 enjoy something you can't form a religion out of it. Y'follow?

And your assumption is everyone reacts to psychedelics in the same way - "Oh dude, I saw God" or they have some kind of religious experience. That's not the case is it. Even today most people who take psychedelics take them maybe once every so often - maybe just once in a lifetime. The vast majority of people who take psychedelics go "Oh that was interesting" but most of the time they'd rather get drunk or take coke.

It's a matter of numbers - to form a religion you need vast numbers of people who relate to what you're saying. It's no good if only one in a hundred or one in a thousand people relate to what you're saying. You can't form a religion from that, It's like that "Temple of the inner light" in New York who tried to make a religion from DPT - there were only 2 fucking blokes in the entire religion - and they mainly did it so they could fuck young girls they could promise drugs to.

 

[Mjäll]

More like 1000 out of 10,000

And 9000 out of 10,000 with it normalized

 

[Ismene2]

One in ten have such good experiences of psychedelics they take it regularly? Nah - most people try them once or twice then get married and go to the pub. The ones it means anything to who use psychedelics throughout their life is vanishingly small - maybe one in 500,000 or even lower.

Incidentally I'm the biggest psychedelic fan there is and I have NEVER had any kind of religious experience or "seen God". To the contrary, it's made me even more firmly convinced religion and the idea of God is utter steaming bullshit.

 

[Mjäll]

One in ten have such good experiences of psychedelics they take it regularly? Nah - most people try them once or twice then get married and go to the pub. The ones it means anything to who use psychedelics throughout their life is vanishingly small - maybe one in 500,000 or even lower.

Incidentally I'm the biggest psychedelic fan there is and I have NEVER had any kind of religious experience or "seen God". To the contrary, it's made me even more firmly convinced religion and the idea of God is utter steaming bullshit.

I totally agree on the atheism, but i don't think appreciation of psychedelics and an internal spirituality is such a fringe, exceptional thing.

It was big in the 60's and it's gotten perhaps even bigger now. Meanwhile, marriage is declining, as are other tangible prospects of conventional success for today's youth.

 

[Ismene2]

True about the inner spirituality - but thats a diiferent thing to religion. When you hear buddhists or hindus who have tried psychedelics they always say "man made religion is superior". If anyone thinks buddhism or hinduism are in any way superior to psychedelics then they havnt understood a thing about psychedelics.

You often get that atitude - then you ask them how many times they tripped and they say "once'". But I understand - the vast majority of people like belonging to a big group and being told what to do by a boss/bishop. Not me tho. I dont mind going my own way.

 

[burn out]

Well, religion is universal. So it has to have it's basis in something with a universal appeal. That means the simpler it is the more successful you will be. You need something everyone is going to feel - like the fear of death. Psychedelics appeal to a vanishingly small number of people so they can't be the basis of religion. If only 2 people out of 10,000 enjoy something you can't form a religion out of it. Y'follow?

You're assuming everyone needs to take psychedelics in order for psychedelics to have influenced religion. This is simply not the case. Again I will use the analogy of medicine. Medicine has a near universal appeal, because just about everyone gets sick, injured or fears death at some point in their lives. However, that doesn't mean everyone has to dissect cadavers or study drug design in order to advance medical knowledge. A few people do those things and then those people share what they learned with others. As I already explained, the same is true for religion. The shaman, medicine men or priestly class were responsible for larger share of religious thought than the farmers.

And your assumption is everyone reacts to psychedelics in the same way - "Oh dude, I saw God" or they have some kind of religious experience. That's not the case is it. Even today most people who take psychedelics take them maybe once every so often - maybe just once in a lifetime. The vast majority of people who take psychedelics go "Oh that was interesting" but most of the time they'd rather get drunk or take coke.

Not assuming that at all. As I explained, only a segment of the population is required not everyone. If the ancient Rishes wrote the Vedas while high on Soma, people who have never taken Soma can still read them or listen to them being recited.

It's a matter of numbers - to form a religion you need vast numbers of people who relate to what you're saying. It's no good if only one in a hundred or one in a thousand people relate to what you're saying. You can't form a religion from that, It's like that "Temple of the inner light" in New York who tried to make a religion from DPT - there were only 2 fucking blokes in the entire religion - and they mainly did it so they could fuck young girls they could promise drugs to.

So how do you explain the success of the Native American Church which exists despite the fact that you are required to prove native American ancestry to join? If not for that rule, tons more people would want to join, just like people fly across the world to do ayahuasca ceremonies. You seem to be vastly under estimating the interest in psychedelics and ignoring the fact that psychedelic churches actually exist. You are also falsely assuming that one must use psychedelics themselves in order to "relate" to ideas that may have been influenced by psychedelics. You have no bases for that assumption. It's entirely possible that some of the scriptures of the worlds most popular religions, were written under the influence of psychedelics and millions of people relate to these scriptures despite never having tripped themselves.

 

[burn out]

True about the inner spirituality - but thats a diiferent thing to religion. When you hear buddhists or hindus who have tried psychedelics they always say "man made religion is superior". If anyone thinks buddhism or hinduism are in any way superior to psychedelics then they havnt understood a thing about psychedelics.

They could just as easily say you haven't understood a thing about Buddhism.

You often get that atitude - then you ask them how many times they tripped and they say "once'". But I understand - the vast majority of people like belonging to a big group and being told what to do by a boss/bishop. Not me tho. I dont mind going my own way.

Yes, clearly you are superior to Buddhists and Hindus but while I know you're not a fan of his, folks like Ram Daas tripped a few more times than once before adopting Hinduism. You just spout off opinions as though they are facts yet you provide no supporting evidence and counter examples are very easy to find.

 

[burn out]

One in ten have such good experiences of psychedelics they take it regularly? Nah - most people try them once or twice then get married and go to the pub. The ones it means anything to who use psychedelics throughout their life is vanishingly small - maybe one in 500,000 or even lower.

I think I forgot I realized years ago you were just a troll, lol. You are funny but for everyone who might be taking this guy seriously think about what he is saying. This would be only about 600 people in the entire USA. To put that in perspective, over 3,000 people attended the 2017 maps psychedelic science conference. Granted, there were people there from all over the world but still I find it hard to believe such a large gathering could be pulling from such a small segment of the population.

Also, where I currently work I have met five other psychedelic users. Granted two of them are very young so they couldn't be considered life long users and a couple older guys don't trip anymore but tripped a lot throughout their lives but if you consider collectively the six of us have quite a bit of psychedelic experience among us and we all just met by chance and none of us are people who only just tripped once or twice, it was a serious interest for all of us. If you consider only 1 in 500,000 people or so to have such an intererst, then the chances of the six of us meeting randomly like this would be astronomically small.

 

[Ismene2]

But the number of people who get anything out of psychedelics is nowhere near enough to call it the basis of religions practised by billions of people. Agreed?

Anyone who doesnt agree with you is a troll right?

Yeah Hinduism is cruel and bullshit pure and simple. The caste system is like something out of Mein Kampf. Tibetan buddhists practised a feudal system and had slaves for a thousand years. What do you want us to "respect" about the silly bastards?

Ram dass was fucking every young boy he could lay his hands on and making up bullshit stories about "he took 900 mics of acid for the first time and it had no effect on him". And you believe him? Have you ever taken psychedelics? You do know thats bullshit dont you?

 

[burn out]

Anyone who doesnt agree with you is a troll right?

Yeah Hinduism is cruel and bullshit pure and simple. The caste system is like something out of Mein Kampf.

No, but people who make absurd claims like your only 1 in 500,000 claim are often trolling in my experience.

 

[Ismene2]

No more absurd than your claim that religion has to be based on psychedelics rather than the fear of death.

And you arnt interested in the argument anyway - you just dont like it when someone disagrees with you.

But we didnt we go through all this bollocks before? You believe ram dass right? Were you the one who spent months arguing "Its true!! he gave him 900 mics and he just sat there scratching his arse"? Go give any hindu master 900 mics for the first time and see what happens to him. Use your own brain dont just believe blindly.

 

[burn out]

No more absurd than your claim that religion has to be based on psychedelics rather than the fear of death.

I never claimed religion has to be based on psychedelics, lol. I claimed that in my opinion psychedelics played a role in the genesis of religion, this in addition to many other things. It also doesn't have to be an either-or. Obviously fear of death is a strong motivating factor for why someone might adopt religious beliefs. This doesn't mean religious scriptures couldn't also have been influenced by psychedelics. This is why I pointed out earlier than you were over simplifying, which you are still doing.

And you arnt interested in the argument anyway - you just dont like it when someone disagrees with you.

I do like it when someone disagrees with me, if everyone agreed on everything there would be little purpose to discussion. The issue I have with you is that you don't seem to really be paying much attention to my actual arguments instead choosing to mischaracterize my position as you did above. I'm not angry though, and I apologize if calling you a troll offended you. It was simply me realizing that perhaps I was taking this discussion too seriously.

But we didnt we go through all this bollocks before? You believe ram dass right? Go give any hindu master 900 mics for the first time and see what happens to him. Use your own brain dont just believe blindly.

I have my doubts about Ram Daas.