Russo-Ukrainian War v. World War 3?

[-=SS=-]

Did they ever traffic drugs?

Haha. That's a classic. It's so well known that even Hollywood did a nod to it, 'American Made'.

 

[somnilicious]

Haha. That's a classic. It's so well known that even Hollywood did a nod to it, 'American Made'.

Yeah, cause Hollywood is a reliable source for information.

The idea comes from one article from the San Jose post by a guy named Gary Weber. Once again turning a blind eye to trafficking in a country for which the United States has no jurisdiction to make arrests. Not the same thing.

400 kilos of cocaine was however found at a Russian embassy so I'm guessing we should disband the Russian government or all diplomatic embassies.

 

[w01fg4ng]

Oh no!! Did your Russian friend have an opinion his government didn't like? I hope your Ukrainian friend stays safe.

Thanks for the well wishes, man. Both of these men have a wife and kids to take care of so there are many people involved.

Yes, my Russian friend has the basic opinion that war is bad and he is now seeking asylum in the States. We are helping him make the move by going down to Mexico to help with the legal logistics as well as drive him to the border. This is the first time I've had to deal with immigration on a personal level and I'm finding out just how stressful it is and how difficult it is for everyone involved. This isn't just helping a friend move, this is a legal, physical, emotional and monetary life-change.

Lawyers also drive me up the wall so it just adds another layer of uncertainty. I suppose I'm learning a lot, however. I'm learning it the hard way. I guess noone said war was easy.

 

[somnilicious]

Thanks for the well wishes, man. Both of these men have a wife and kids to take care of so there are many people involved.

Yes, my Russian friend has the basic opinion that war is bad and he is now seeking asylum in the States. We are helping him make the move by going down to Mexico to help with the legal logistics as well as drive him to the border. This is the first time I've had to deal with immigration on a personal level and I'm finding out just how stressful it is and how difficult it is for everyone involved. This isn't just helping a friend move, this is a legal, physical, emotional and monetary life-change.

Lawyers also drive me up the wall so it just adds another layer of uncertainty. I suppose I'm learning a lot, however. I'm learning it the hard way. I guess noone said war was easy.

Damn.... That sounds like a nightmare. Is your friend receiving asylum? Really puts my problems into perspective. I couldn't imagine having to leave my whole life or loved ones behind to move to another country or worse yet having my whole neighborhood blown to splinters, while I have to defend home with Molotov cocktails and bury my friends and loved ones as I find them dead in the street.

 

[Atomic_Decay]

Shows how much you know then doesn't it. The MI6 is about as British as HP Sauce and the CIA about as American as.. whatever the equivalent contextual example is.

Those entities specifically exist to interfere in the affairs of other nations internal politics. That's what they do. That's what the history shows unequivocally. They are the main tools of the powerful hidden interests of the West to exercise their geopolitical game playing i.e assassinations, regime change, industrial espionage, etc.

Calling for their disbandment would be a net positive to both our nations and the world itself. They are corrupt scum and always have been. It has nothing to do with disbanding the West or any of our values, because those institutions do not imbue those values we supposedly hold (and neither does our establishment generally).

Fuck the West. We can do better. I really don't understand people who hold on to antiquated notions about ourselves, that have been proved demonstrably false by recent history anyway, or conversely believe that integration with international institutions (UN, EU, etc) is the way forward. Where's the imagination? Where's the spirit? Do you really want yet another century of this bullshit bloodshed and flagellation? Because that's what we'll get if we continue on this path.

I couldn't disagree more. Every nation has it's intelligence agencies and practices these same tactics and worse. Why don't we just disband our armies and send Putin, Kim Jung-Un and Khamenei fruit baskets while we're at it. Then we can all sing Kumbaya together. I guess I don't have enough imagination or spirit. Christ dude.... That ending sounded like the conclusion to an episode of Barney and friends. Cause God knows if the West were to simply lay down it's arms there would be peace and harmony in the grand new century of imagination land.... Fuck me.

You are mistaking national defense and intelligence agency operations. They are not the same. Disbanding the CIA is not the same as disbanding the armed forces that protects the sovereignty of a country. Intelligence agencies operate inside other countries, both friend and foe, and there is a tremendous blackhole of oversight to their operations. When the military conducts exercises, we know about it.. or if they go into hostile nations (war).

Look at the known declassified history of CIA operations within the USA. What the fuck does MK-Ultra have to do with defending our sovereignty? Or Mockingbird? Or any of the numerous scandalous operations they've conducted (that we know of).

You can't have peace when you have places for darkness to congregate. Whether it be MI6, CIA, Mossad, ISI, FSB, MSS..

It's part of every countries national defense. Come on... Get real. Naive.... I'm done with this conversation. This thread was originally about Russia invading Ukraine but for some strange reason it became an attack the West thread. Sorry your not convincing me that getting rid of our intelligence agencies is to our benefit. You can't have a military without intelligence agencies. Quit playing into their hands. Sounds like something Russian propaganda would say.

I’m too tired to put this into my own words - but both sides here may find some enlightenment and support in the following article. Which basicaly highlights the near impossibility of a world order based on the primacy of Westphalian principle of sovereignty operating any differently.

It’s also worth noting that the West came up with the idea of a rules based international order precisely to stop large and powerful states simply taking what they wanted by force.

Realism (international relations) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[w01fg4ng]

Damn.... That sounds like a nightmare. Is your friend receiving asylum? Really puts my problems into perspective. I couldn't imagine having to leave my whole life or loved ones behind to move to another country or worse yet having my whole neighborhood blown to splinters, while I have to defend home with Molotov cocktails and bury my friends and loved ones as I find them dead in the street.

He doesn't know yet. One uncertainty is what the guards will do at the border once we drop him off. We might do it again the next day. There are a number of potential outcomes for him, unfortunately, so we are doing our best to help him out.

Yes, there are war stories that my Ukrainian friend has but when he tells them it's not a moment he is looking back on. It's a moment he is dealing with. You'd think I'd at least smile after being told how his grandfather helped blow up a Russian tank but there were no smiles or laughs. Maybe someday, but there are no laughs today.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

 

[imo_incolae]

I don't believe that the West is responsible for all the problems in the world. You say that as if it's a fact and it's not. Russia and other countries have their own multitude of atrocities. I don't exactly want all drugs to be legal and your argument is flawed. Even if I disagreed with the war on drugs I wouldn't want to do away with every aspect of our government. You don't throw out the baby with the bath water. I would much rather live under our government than most of the current world governments.

Agreed and most people agree too.
Anybody who is sympathetic without reason towards Russia is compromised in their reasoning. It seems like you are ASSUMING that everybody who is challenging you is supporting Russia and then you're projecting that onto everybody who challenges you. Ring any bells? We spent the past few years in a vortex arguing like crazed fools over binary arguments about subjects that were hugely nuanced and complicated. And now it seems like that's happening again.

"Hey, you're talking about Russia! That makes you a disinformation agent!"
It's absurd. It's like talking about heroin and then being accused of being an international drug peddler for the Mexican cartel. "Hey you, we all know you're connected to El Chapo!". And how is that? "Because you're talking about heroin and we don't like you having freedom of expression!" It's the stifling of debate, unless everybody agrees that you ARE a Mexican cartel heroin peddler, in which case the debate can continue.

This black and white thinking is what allows governments to enact laws that bring about changes you don't like. And I used drugs as a perfect example because that's the perfect example of what happens when the masses start regurgitating utter bullshit that holds no weight in reality. "Drugs are bad!" they said. "LSD will create holes in your brain!" they said. And then all of a sudden, we have demonised and essentially shunned a portion of the population and created a war that we cannot win, reinforced the police state, imprisoned endless amounts of innocent people and people guilty only of the lowest level offences, like smoking a joint. Compartmentalising the bigger picture just so you can see your own reality reinforced doesn't change the fact you're looking at DECADES of YOUR government fucking over people like yourself. You want to see all the good bits and the things you like but you won't look at the facts, unless the facts reinforce your reality.

And that's what makes all the things you don't like happen in the world. You choose to pretend you're in some sort of ideal relationship with your government that doesn't ever need challenging and that the system will just iron itself out on it's own. The system irons itself out because we have checks and balances. Because people stand up for YOUR freedoms, rights and liberties. Big assumptions I know but I'm pretty confident that a large majority of the global population have been brainwashed and are now in a deeper sleep than ever before. The war against our own societies are happening from within, not without. And so whose to blame? You think I'm to blame? You're not even to blame really. But you're the one opening the door to the bully who wants to beat up your entire family and then pretending the bully is your friend just because you let him in. The bully uses you to get into your home! And after he's got what he wants he now knows he can return time and time again to take what he wants and do what he wants. It's the people challenging this shit that are the ones stood in front of your front door preventing the bully coming in. That bully is the encroaching external forces; social media giants and big tech empires, the tightening laws on freedom of expression and freedom of assembly, the agendas pushing digital smart grids that will imprison everybody eventually, the lobbyists who fight for multi billion dollar contracts to build weapons and technologies that create more destruction in the world, the legacy media empire that is desperate to claw back the power it lost during the expansion of our digital lives, the rich and powerful private interests who seek to influence political decisions that affect you and me (and who aren't even elected officials yet have more power than those very elected officials).

We could go on and on. When you look at it like that you're a victim. You're stood with the bully and perhaps because it makes you feel better you continue to stand with him. The bully doesn't give a shit about you. The fact you stand with him means you've capitulated which means you've been bullied too. All this madness would end if people stopped siding with this predatory, psychopathic and ruthless forces. You'd see war reduce down to a rare event, you'd see open discourse about everything with very little recourse, you'd see brighter opportunities (because they aren't being stolen from you to keep you downtrodden) and you wouldn't be here trying to defend one of the biggest superpowers on the world who has through the decades forced it's version of 'democracy' onto the world. And this is what we have as a result. If you think that's happened because of well-intentioned decent people like myself and others commentating, you really are living like a beaten house wife and really need help.

Look at how fragile things are right now. We've just come sailing off the back of one of the most fucked up experiences in all our lives. And without rest you're thrown into another conflict, this time with the 'bad guys' of war and not the 'bad guys' of viruses. Last year and before it was about attacking those who spoke out about the incongruencies of the pandemic. Now it's about attacking those who are speaking about the incongruences of this war. Notice the same pattern? Wake up man.

I'm curious which government you live under because you keep switching between your's and ours as if you can't make up your mind as to where you live?

The good 'ole UK with our lovely lady the Queen defending the realm! God save the Queen!
I think I just threw up.

 

[Conky]

Did they ever traffic drugs? Turning I blind eye on the movement of drugs in a country in the middle of a civil war and for which the United States has no jurisdiction to make arrests is different than trafficking drugs.

I dunno

You ever watch Kill The Messenger with Jeremy Renner playing Gary Webb

The spooks harassed & stalked him and his family for reporting on their deals with the contras

He allegedly killed himself in 2004 with 2 gunshots to the head

RIP

 

[w01fg4ng]

Your Ukrainian male friend is trying to leave Ukraine?

His family is trying to leave. He isn't allowed to.

 

[Jabberwocky]

His family is trying to leave. He isn't allowed to.

I would be terrified being a man with a family in ukraine right now knowing that no one was safe and nothing was off limits to the Russians when it came to killing not a woman or child.

There are always civilian causalities in war and of US drone strikes but they are usually accidental this is more on the lines of darfur and genocide ethnic cleansing
the idea that soilders would be purposefully killing so many civilians on such a major scale is horrific

putin needs to be tried at The Hague

seeing the mass graves is in Bucha is just so sad I’m terrified of what is happening at Mariupol
will anyone be left alive

I hope his family gets across the border into Poland or wherever they will be safe so he can have that off of his mind

 

[Xorkoth]

Holy shit

The "label the majority of the people you're invading as reprehensible" is the oldest play in the book

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

 

[imo_incolae]

I would be terrified being a man with a family in ukraine right now knowing that no one was safe and nothing was off limits to the Russians when it came to killing not a woman or child.

There are always civilian causalities in war and of US drone strikes but they are usually accidental this is more on the lines of darfur and genocide ethnic cleansing
the idea that soilders would be purposefully killing so many civilians on such a major scale is horrific

putin needs to be tried at The Hague

seeing the mass graves is in Bucha is just so sad I’m terrified of what is happening at Mariupol
will anyone be left alive

I hope his family gets across the border into Poland or wherever they will be safe so he can have that off of his mind

Its war. That's what happens but that's also what people ask for when they choose to believe the bullshit they see on TV and social media. And people like war and like to spend untold amounts of it on needless wars and supporting elected officials who push these wars. Name one major war in the past few decades not a result of Western intervention? This war now involves the West. Do you really think we are looking on from the sidelines as completely oblivious spectators? Our Western governments have had their fingers in all the pies in this part of the world for a very long time. We are hardly new to the conflicts going on. We ARE a part of those conflicts. You might want to learn about the agreements made and the history involving Western involvement. It goes back quite a ways. Ukraine is a guinea pig for Western posturing against Russia and Russia supporting countries, and has been long before this happened.

Are you also forgetting all the millions of innocent people slaughtered by these interventions over the decades? We've gone after pretty much every ethnic minority you can think about and pretty much every skin colour other than white. We have destabilized every country we sought to "help" and instilled our version of "democracy" onto them, most of which if you spoke to the real voices on the ground don't actually want or ever needed.

Just get some context by studying the bloodshed the Western world is responsible for before you talk about other countries and their leaders being tried. Learn about the real history of where you come from and what that is built on. Because its not hugs and kisses.

To be rational about any of this you have to eradicate any biases towards war and that involves refusing to support your very own governments responsible for their parts to play in it because your own government is chief about the warmongering that exists in the world. You can't cry because another country rolls the dice and moves their character across the board just because yours didn't. Russian tanks, American tanks, British tanks, Ukrainian tanks. Russian bullets, American bullets, Ukrainian bullets. You know what they all have in common? They are all designed to kill in the most clinical of ways. None of them discriminate. If you want to paint a particular bullet a certain colour and make elaborate stories up about that bullet, so be it, it will still kill you in the same way and doesn't give a fuck about your nationality, your feelings or your beliefs.

All you're seeing is a country doing what your country has spent the past few decades doing and with relative impunity. Invading countries, overthrowing governments, assassinating leaders, destroying economies, killing huge amounts of innocent people. Its no different. You are just reflecting back everything your country does to others.

I mean, if we are taking about a relatively neutral country like Finland or Sweden or Iceland, sure, you can't say any of these countries are hypocrites. You can't argue against their track record. But come on, if you come from most places in the West tied to the Western military industrial complex, your point is mute before you even talk.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Its war. That's what happens but that's also what people ask for when they choose to believe the bullshit they see on TV and social media. And people like war and like to spend untold amounts of it on needless wars and supporting elected officials who push these wars. Name one major war in the past few decades not a result of Western intervention? This war now involves the West. Do you really think we are looking on from the sidelines as completely oblivious spectators? Our Western governments have had their fingers in all the pies in this part of the world for a very long time. We are hardly new to the conflicts going on. We ARE a part of those conflicts. You might want to learn about the agreements made and the history involving Western involvement. It goes back quite a ways. Ukraine is a guinea pig for Western posturing against Russia and Russia supporting countries, and has been long before this happened.

Are you also forgetting all the millions of innocent people slaughtered by these interventions over the decades? We've gone after pretty much every ethnic minority you can think about and pretty much every skin colour other than white. We have destabilized every country we sought to "help" and instilled our version of "democracy" onto them, most of which if you spoke to the real voices on the ground don't actually want or ever needed.

Just get some context by studying the bloodshed the Western world is responsible for before you talk about other countries and their leaders being tried. Learn about the real history of where you come from and what that is built on. Because its not hugs and kisses.

To be rational about any of this you have to eradicate any biases towards war and that involves refusing to support your very own governments responsible for their parts to play in it because your own government is chief about the warmongering that exists in the world. You can't cry because another country rolls the dice and moves their character across the board just because yours didn't. Russian tanks, American tanks, British tanks, Ukrainian tanks. Russian bullets, American bullets, Ukrainian bullets. You know what they all have in common? They are all designed to kill in the most clinical of ways. None of them discriminate. If you want to paint a particular bullet a certain colour and make elaborate stories up about that bullet, so be it, it will still kill you in the same way and doesn't give a fuck about your nationality, your feelings or your beliefs.

All you're seeing is a country doing what your country has spent the past few decades doing and with relative impunity. Invading countries, overthrowing governments, assassinating leaders, destroying economies, killing huge amounts of innocent people. Its no different. You are just reflecting back everything your country does to others.

I mean, if we are taking about a relatively neutral country like Finland or Sweden or Iceland, sure, you can't say any of these countries are hypocrites. You can't argue against their track record. But come on, if you come from most places in the West tied to the Western military industrial complex, your point is mute before you even talk.

slaughtering entire cities is not just war
that’s a Geneva code violation

edited to add

again
im saying this for the last time
just because we had wars that were wrong doesn’t mean we would have been right to sit back and let ukraine be wiped off the map
that is easy for you to philosophize about from your warm cozy house in the west but is not realistic
and the west stepping down will not stop dictators and power hungry people from being that way that viewpoint is childish and naive at its core

it lacks a fundamental understanding of human nature

it’s like believing if I woman doesn’t do anything wrong she will never be raped or murdered
naïve
rainbows and unicorns thinking

 

[deficiT]

Its war. That's what happens but that's also what people ask for when they choose to believe the bullshit they see on TV and social media. And people like war and like to spend untold amounts of it on needless wars and supporting elected officials who push these wars. Name one major war in the past few decades not a result of Western intervention? This war now involves the West. Do you really think we are looking on from the sidelines as completely oblivious spectators? Our Western governments have had their fingers in all the pies in this part of the world for a very long time. We are hardly new to the conflicts going on. We ARE a part of those conflicts. You might want to learn about the agreements made and the history involving Western involvement. It goes back quite a ways. Ukraine is a guinea pig for Western posturing against Russia and Russia supporting countries, and has been long before this happened.

Are you also forgetting all the millions of innocent people slaughtered by these interventions over the decades? We've gone after pretty much every ethnic minority you can think about and pretty much every skin colour other than white. We have destabilized every country we sought to "help" and instilled our version of "democracy" onto them, most of which if you spoke to the real voices on the ground don't actually want or ever needed.

Just get some context by studying the bloodshed the Western world is responsible for before you talk about other countries and their leaders being tried. Learn about the real history of where you come from and what that is built on. Because its not hugs and kisses.

To be rational about any of this you have to eradicate any biases towards war and that involves refusing to support your very own governments responsible for their parts to play in it because your own government is chief about the warmongering that exists in the world. You can't cry because another country rolls the dice and moves their character across the board just because yours didn't. Russian tanks, American tanks, British tanks, Ukrainian tanks. Russian bullets, American bullets, Ukrainian bullets. You know what they all have in common? They are all designed to kill in the most clinical of ways. None of them discriminate. If you want to paint a particular bullet a certain colour and make elaborate stories up about that bullet, so be it, it will still kill you in the same way and doesn't give a fuck about your nationality, your feelings or your beliefs.

All you're seeing is a country doing what your country has spent the past few decades doing and with relative impunity. Invading countries, overthrowing governments, assassinating leaders, destroying economies, killing huge amounts of innocent people. Its no different. You are just reflecting back everything your country does to others.

I mean, if we are taking about a relatively neutral country like Finland or Sweden or Iceland, sure, you can't say any of these countries are hypocrites. You can't argue against their track record. But come on, if you come from most places in the West tied to the Western military industrial complex, your point is mute before you even talk.

I mean, you're right about the US. But that doesn't make the war acceptable, and you can't just label an entire countries population hypocrites because of their governments actions. So I don't know what point you're trying to make.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I mean, you're right about the US. But that doesn't make the war acceptable, and you can't just label an entire countries population hypocrites because of their governments actions. So I don't know what point you're trying to make.

I don’t either he is like Finland and Norway they aren’t hypocrites
um dude Finland sent soilders to Afghanistan Norway sent soilders to Iraq …I’d keep going but why?
there are no angels

 

[thegreenhand]

something a friend told me really made this whole hypocrisy thing make sense:

during the iraq war, the world was much more unipolar. russia was not the superpower it is today and china wasn't quite there either. it was america pulling the strings and running the show

so when war broke out in the world, yeah we could pretty easily blame the US and criticize them for it. not always, but a lot of the time.

but now the world is no longer unipolar. russia and china are actors capable of big geopolitical actions, as we've seen from the invasion of ukraine

i think many people are still stuck in this mindset that we are responsible for any wars around the globe. and now that this current one doesn't involve america people are still quick to frame it as a result of US interventions because that's the frame of mind that was correct for so long.

i guess i just don't think people fully grasp that the world is now multipolar with other powerful nation states acting on their volition.

it's not the america show anymore...

 

[imo_incolae]

something a friend told me really made this whole hypocrisy thing make sense:

during the iraq war, the world was much more unipolar. russia was not the superpower it is today and china wasn't quite there either. it was america pulling the strings and running the show

so when war broke out in the world, yeah we could pretty easily blame the US and criticize them for it. not always, but a lot of the time.

but now the world is no longer unipolar. russia and china are actors capable of big geopolitical actions, as we've seen from the invasion of ukraine

i think many people are still stuck in this mindset that we are responsible for any wars around the globe. and now that this current one doesn't involve america people are still quick to frame it as a result of US interventions because that's the frame of mind that was correct for so long.

i guess i just don't think people fully grasp that the world is now multipolar with other powerful nation states acting on their volition.

it's not the america show anymore...

Agreed. One thing people need to do is stop living with the 19th century mentality that everything can be explained through flags, countries and mass spectacle about military power and potential. There are underlying forces present in today's world that dominate the "world stage" that people unfortunately don't want to accept, or maybe aren't being exposed to, so they keep waving their flags and singing the national anthem believing there is a defined line between us and them, our country and other countries, and our politics and theirs. We can just "sort out" the other country and then bravely return home without any attachment to the underpinning context that melds everything together. Those times are long gone.

It's all enmeshed and the systems that exist that prop up our reality is far more complex than the binary belief systems people hold.

 

[bingey]

Ted kazynski?