Are humans made to naturally eat meat

[Mjäll]

and you're not responding to mine, blah de blah de blah, around we go

Yes i am.

Are you still talking about my first reply where i selectively commented your bad rhetorics, even though we are now discussing the things you intended to discuss?

 

[RareForm]

Perhaps there is an impasse here, and it's best to move on?

 

[extropy]

ok, so we are discussing the things i intended to discuss cool. thanks.

so this is what i intend to discuss - animal abuse.

what gives you the right to kill an animal when you don't have to? what is your reasoning behind that stance?

 

[darvocet21]

Obviously I'm not talking about The Garden of Eden, it's a fictional place! That would be like talking about how people used to eat in Narnia or Mordor xD

Yeah you really on point about metaphors. They be interchangeable.

 

[extropy]

blah de blah de blah quotes not very good for a thread i don't think

unfortunately that's all i can hear at this point

 

[Mjäll]

ok, so we are discussing the things i intended to discuss cool. thanks.

so this is what i intend to discuss - animal abuse.

what gives you the right to kill an animal when you don't have to? what is your reasoning behind that stance?

Yeah, we transitioned to that a while ago.

What gives you the claim to categorically micro-manage other people's ethical choices? What's the cutoff point for necessity? Is your diet optimized for ethics?

There are plenty of points to be made and i lean towards agreement about reducing animal consumption. However, the demands for absolutism are not constructive. Knowledge and nudging is good, but trying to micro-manage adult strangers is counterproductive. Making it about a polarized label is counterproductive.

Pets are an interesting special case btw. Could be viewed as exploitation.

 

[extropy]

^ dude i swear i'm not even trying to troll or annoy you, but you didn't answer the question...

 

[darvocet21]

People should say good things about veganism, or discuss how they might want to transition to veganism or vegetarianism, stuff like that

I will! As soon as I finish cooking this pasture-raised 80/20 ground beef

 

[Mjäll]

^ dude i swear i'm not even trying to troll or annoy you, but you didn't answer the question...

I answered by asking questions in return, questioning your claims to that question.

As said, i'm morally flexible. I've got no problem admitting that unnecessary animal consumption is a moral error, and likely not the only one i'm guilty of. I guess i can give you that answer if it's important. To me it's more important to put this in the broader context of a world permeated by various moral errors. Dogmatic judgment based on narrow moral parameters is a moral error in itself.

Honestly i'm not sold on the moral importance of animal rights. Like i said, there is a moral aspect to it but i tend to view it as much less important compared to intraspecies morality.

 

[extropy]

I answered by asking questions in return, questioning your claims to that question.

that. is. not. answering. the. question.

As said, i'm morally flexible. I've got no problem admitting that unnecessary animal consumption is a moral error, and likely not the only one i'm guilty of. I guess i can give you that answer if it's important. To me it's more important to put this in the broader context of a world permeated by various moral errors. Dogmatic judgment based on narrow moral parameters is a moral error in itself.

Honestly i'm not sold on the moral importance of animal rights. Like i said, there is a moral aspect to it but i tend to view it as much less important compared to intraspecies morality.

ok, so your point is animals shouldn't have rights? am i correct?

i'd just like to point out there is a HUGE movement to grant animals rights. in England, just recently they were declared sentient beings BY LAW. this is the first step to them getting the rights you would deny them...

 

[darvocet21]

unfortunately that's all i can hear at this point

To answer the question
"Are humans made to naturally eat meat"
and end the thread - no - because we are born without teeth - but yes after that if we can catch it or are offered some.

I don't understand why there's this struggle. It's just a numbers game. If you're presentable enough and you ask nicely eventually you'll get some

 

[extropy]

To answer the question
"Are humans made to naturally eat meat"
and end the thread - no - because we are born without teeth - but yes after that if we can catch it or are offered some.

so when a xenomorph rocks up and wants to eat you that's totally fine? or is it only things you know you could have in a fight that you would abuse, like a bully?

 

[Mjäll]

that. is. not. answering. the. question.



ok, so your point is animals shouldn't have rights? am i correct?

i'd just like to point out there is a HUGE movement to grant animals rights. in England, just recently they were declared sentient beings BY LAW. this is the first step to them getting the rights you would deny them...

Animal protection laws are already a thing, right?

I don't think animal consumption should be criminalized, if that's what you're asking. Killing and eating animals may be something we should move away from, but comparing it with intraspecies murder gets ridiculous in my opinion. Since humans are omnivores, we should expect humans to eat meat and not suddenly stop at some arbitrary cutoff point for survival necessity.

I believe animals should have some rights, but not the rights of humans. We are humans and working in the interest of humanity. We are not arbiters of absolute cosmic morality.

 

[extropy]

Animal protection laws are already a thing, right?

barely...this new bill ensures that animals are recognised in law as sentient for the first time. it's gonna take it's time but this will allow legislation to appear that will provide greater animal welfare.

I don't think animal consumption should be criminalized, if that's what you're asking. Killing and eating animals may be something we should move away from, but comparing it with intraspecies murder gets ridiculous in my opinion.
Since humans are omnivores, we should expect humans to eat meat and not suddenly stop at some arbitrary cutoff point for survival necessity.

rape used to be common among humans too, but we're growing out of that. but i'm glad you can see that moving away from meat is the right thing.

I believe animals should have some rights, but not the rights of humans. We are humans and working in the interest of humanity. We are not arbiters of absolute cosmic morality.

not the right to life and liberty tho?

 

[Mjäll]

barely...this new bill ensures that animals are recognised in law as sentient for the first time. it's gonna take it's time but this will allow legislation to appear that will provide greater animal welfare.

rape used to be common among humans too, but we're growing out of that. but i'm glad you can see that moving away from meat is the right thing.

not the right to life and liberty tho?

Rape has a human victim, though. Moving away from rape is a question of human peace, collaboration and civilization. This simply isn't applicable to other species. They are not part of humanity, even though we interact with them in some ways.

The reasonable moral concern imo is to minimize maltreatment in the industry. A lot of these problems are due to the alienation of production. We used to raise, care for and slaughter our own animals.

I don't think other species can be legally considered to have the right to life and liberty, no. I do however recognize veganism as a spiritual value.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

To answer the question
"Are humans made to naturally eat meat"
and end the thread - no - because we are born without teeth - but yes after that if we can catch it or are offered some.

Best answer so far.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

And please let's keep triggering words like " rape " out of a simple meat diet thread. Thanks.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

i actually mostly agree with @extropy

because he's mostly right - moralistically speaking

if you have a child, and you tell them well this chicken we're eating is from the one we had in the backyard that you were playing with the last couple months, its probably not gonna go over too well, and that's in it's simplest form


my grandfather was a butcher and he would chop everybodys deer for them....he made some great venison sausage...my brother has the sausage maker now


it's ok to eat eggs because they aren't baby chicks yet right?

 

[extropy]

Rape has a human victim, though. Moving away from rape is a question of human peace, collaboration and civilization. This simply isn't applicable to other species.
They are not part of humanity, even though we interact with them in some ways.

The reasonable moral concern imo is to minimize maltreatment in the industry. A lot of these problems are due to the alienation of production. We used to raise, care for and slaughter our own animals.

I don't think other species can be legally considered to have the right to life and liberty, no. I do however recognize veganism as a spiritual value.

well i think due the the fact they feel pain and have desires, we can empathise with them. so i do believe rights are applicable to other species.

i guess we just disagree on that point

 

[birdup]

Are you talking about crop deaths or the fossil fuel thing?

Both.

As for your question, yes I have the "right" to eat meat whatever that means. I am not a functional enough person to stop consuming animal products right now. I've tried and failed so many times. I have other priorities.

Scallops have nerves so they might feel pain. That's not a very solid argument. Plants have their own version of nerves. They are more distant from us than scallops, so we assume that they are not sentient. Personally, I think scallops are closer to broccoli than they are to monkeys in terms of sentience. It is quite extreme to not eat scallops because they might feel harm, when there is no (decent) scientific studies to back that up.

Veganism makes less sense to me than sentientism, which is probably what I will eventually settle on. It always made the most sense to me.