Which drugs should a drug naive person try?

[Higherfocus420]

Mdma can certainly be addictive, and very damaging, however

I can think of Bette r drugs to get addicted to than Md if you smash that stuff too much you turn into a mong

 

[Jabberwocky]

The only drugs I would actively encourage other people to try (in a recreational sense) are psychedelics and cannabis.

 

[simstim]

ARe



Mate there is a big difference between someone who drops mdma and a speed freak plus mdma you can't get addicted too as you run out of serotonin amphetamines work mainly on dopamine speed is way worse than mdma

There certainly is a difference between an ecstasy abuser and speed abuser. IME speed users tend to be chill compared to people rolling, however I find speed abusers get more psychotic with time.

MDMA can be very addictive. If you're not rolling then you simply need a higher dose to continue. Serotonin depletion ending rolls is a myth. I've rolled for 4 days straight on MDMA before feeling like it was time for a break and stopping taking pills, and 12 days straight with 4-MMC. I did the 12 just to push my limit and see how long I could go.

 

[telepathetic]

There certainly is a difference between an ecstasy abuser and speed abuser. IME speed users tend to be chill compared to people rolling, however I find speed abusers get more psychotic with time.

MDMA can be very addictive. If you're not rolling then you simply need a higher dose to continue. Serotonin depletion ending rolls is a myth. I've rolled for 4 days straight on MDMA before feeling like it was time for a break and stopping taking pills, and 12 days straight with 4-MMC. I did the 12 just to push my limit and see how long I could go.

Not really. At least 6 years I couldnt roll at all, and still barely can after a solid two year break

 

[simstim]

Not really. At least 6 years I couldnt roll at all, and still barely can after a solid two year break

I think that's caused by receptor damage not the depletion of serotonin. Were you on any medication, as that can severely interfere as well.

I took an 11 year break and I'm rolling just as hard as ever, albeit on ridiculous doses of MDMA.

 

[simstim]

Not really. At least 6 years I couldnt roll at all, and still barely can after a solid two year break

You could try 3 or 4-mmc if MDMA isn't working for you. Lots of people are able to breakthrough with those when MDMA "won't work".

Like I said though I bet if your initial dose of MDMA in a session was 540mg like I take you would roll. One 180mg pill just doesn't cut it anymore for me either. Two is not bad. Three is where it's at for me and my tolerance.

 

[Skorpio]

GHB is both GABAergic and an antagonist of NMDA-receptors, qualifying it as a dissociative

Cite a source or its bullshit

 

[izo]

4mmc should be added for people who just wanna have some fun without the downsides of mdma.

 

[telepathetic]

4mmc should be added for people who just wanna have some fun without the downsides of mdma.

Much much worse IME

 

[simstim]

Much much worse IME

It's proven to be far less neurotoxic to dopamine neurons than MDMA or meth.

Its way worse for your heart though. Especially the primary metabolite.

 

[telepathetic]

Thank God I was like 16

 

[Xorkoth]

That's ill-defined. Firstly, did you know the term, “addictive” literally means “spoken for” if you look into its etymology a bit. The World Health Organization tried to retract this term from the lexicon surrounding what medical professionals prefer to call dependency and this, coupled with tolerance and compulsive behavior patterns, can be very problematic, but it's not helpful to personify and anthropomorphize drugs as something capable of “speaking for you”. What a lame metaphor that is. Secondly, what about caffeine? That builds dependency… What about insulin-dependent diabetics? Those goddamn addicts, right? Or does this sound fuckin' ridiculous?

Who cares what the origin of the word "addictive" is? Clearly in this context we're talking about drugs that frequently produce dependence. If someone drug-naive asked me what drugs they should try, I would say "none, save yourself a world of hurt". That's not to say I have any problem with drug users or addicts at all. I'm one of them. The fact that I AM one of them is why I would say that to someone, though. Although some drugs have brought me some good things, there has been far more bad than good and that is true with a lot of people. Certainly not all, but half the people I know from Bluelight are in the Shrine, as well as a number of IRL friends. And it all started innocently enough. The risk is too high for me to ever feel good about recommending someone start using drugs, if they don't already.

 

[simstim]

Agreed with @Xorkoth. People who use drugs tend to seek them out in their youth. My experience with my ex wife showed me it's not really ok to suggest drugs to people who don't already get high, or only use alcohol. I feel that there's usually a reason why they weren't attracted to them in the first place.

 

[EcHo EcHo]

i though about this question and came up with the following list:

-ketamine
-cannabis
-codeine
-gbl
-amphetamine
-diazepam
-lsd
-(mdma)

Which ever one/s you decide to try by using, do so with purpose and intent.
Control what you do, don't let what you do control you.
One way to self check is asking yourself, "If I got called into work suddenly, would I be able to function and if I were, what would my career be?"

 

[unodelacosa]

Mate there is a big difference between someone who drops mdma and a speed freak

That's putting it in some bullshit terms. That's like if I said, Mate, there is a big difference between someone who uses amphetamine now & again and an E-tard who drops MDMA every weekend

plus mdma you can't get addicted too as you run out of serotonin

That isn't true. There are people in rehab for it, especially in conjunction with abusing other drugs – what rehab people call “cross addicted”. But that shit is all psychological, so you know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ To me that boils down to compulsive behavior pattern disorder. Physical dependency is a different matter. Say what you want, but the come down from MDMA sucks shit compared to… well no, actually, coming down from either kinda sucks unless you have a benzo and enough time to sleep…

amphetamines work mainly on dopamine

MDMA works mainly on Serotonin (5-HT), as you pointed out; however, it also affects dopamine and adrenaline, just to a much lesser extent. Furthermore, the psychedelic amphetamines are primarily serotonergic with all of them exhibiting a strong effect on 5-HT2A. So it's inaccurate to say “amphetamines work mainly on dopamine”; some do and some don't. It really just depends on the compound in question… I'm talking about DOM, DOB, DOI, DOC, etc., btw, regarding psychedelic amphetamines. There are entries for each found in PiHKAL by Dr. Alexander Shulgin.

speed is way worse than mdma

Says who? Let's say I had to be in a car with someone else driving and had to choose between that person being high on MDMA or high on speed (Idk why I would be in that predicament, but humour me for a moment, s'il vous plaît), I would opt for the latter simply because speed is less inebriating than MDMA. If you're talking about the primary amine, amphetamine, you're not crossing into neurotoxic range if you dose sensibly, unlike MDMA which is neurotoxic every single time it's used on account of MAOs converting it into alpha-methyldopamine when it floods into dopamine receptor synapses. (To be fair, I mostly consider this kind of damage to be negligible so long as you don't overdo it with frequency and chasing an MDMA high; after all, drinking booze is also neurotoxic every time…)

 

[unodelacosa]

Which ever one/s you decide to try by using, do so with purpose and intent.

Yeah, or I like doing so with self-discipline, personally

Control what you do, don't let what you do control you.

It's trite but true. I agree.

One way to self check is asking yourself, "If I got called into work suddenly, would I be able to function and if I were, what would my career be?"

Yeah that is one way I guess, if one's career is one's priority, but career isn't everything. Personal health, family relationships, seeking out meaningful experiences in this world while one has the chance, education, romance, acquiring new skills… other things matter and usually make someone much more interesting than those purely concerned with moving up the career ladder, so to speak. Just thought I'd point that out, but otherwise I'm agree with what you're saying here. All things in modesty, even excess.

 

[simstim]

That's putting it in some bullshit terms. That's like if I said, Mate, there is a big difference between someone who uses amphetamine now & again and an E-tard who drops MDMA every weekend

That isn't true. There are people in rehab for it, especially in conjunction with abusing other drugs – what rehab people call “cross addicted”. But that shit is all psychological, so you know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ To me that boils down to compulsive behavior pattern disorder. Physical dependency is a different matter. Say what you want, but the come down from MDMA sucks shit compared to… well no, actually, coming down from either kinda sucks unless you have a benzo and enough time to sleep…

MDMA works mainly on Serotonin (5-HT), as you pointed out; however, it also affects dopamine and adrenaline, just to a much lesser extent. Furthermore, the psychedelic amphetamines are primarily serotonergic with all of them exhibiting a strong effect on 5-HT2A. So it's inaccurate to say “amphetamines work mainly on dopamine”; some do and some don't. It really just depends on the compound in question… I'm talking about DOM, DOB, DOI, DOC, etc., btw, regarding psychedelic amphetamines. There are entries for each found in PiHKAL by Dr. Alexander Shulgin.

Says who? Let's say I had to be in a car with someone else driving and had to choose between that person being high on MDMA or high on speed (Idk why I would be in that predicament, but humour me for a moment, s'il vous plaît), I would opt for the latter simply because speed is less inebriating than MDMA. If you're talking about the primary amine, amphetamine, you're not crossing into neurotoxic range if you dose sensibly, unlike MDMA which is neurotoxic every single time it's used on account of MAOs converting serotonin into alpha-methyldopamine when it floods into dopamine receptor synapses. (To be fair, I mostly consider this kind of damage to be negligible so long as you don't overdo it with frequency and chasing an MDMA high; after all, drinking booze is also neurotoxic every time…)

It's actually MDMA itself which is converted into alpha methyl dopamine, aka 3,4-dihydroxymethamphetamine, via removal of the methylene bridge on the methylenedioxy ring in the liver, and not a reaction with serotonin. It would be impossible to convert a tryptamine (serotonin) into a phenethylamine (alpha methyl dopamine).

 

[unodelacosa]

Who cares what the origin of the word "addictive" is?

People who realize the power and influence of language and how the words we use actually do matter.

Clearly in this context we're talking about drugs that frequently produce dependence.

I guess. I mean, the question originally was just "which drugs should a drug naive person try?” Other people brought “addiction” into the discussion.

If someone drug-naive asked me what drugs they should try, I would say "none, save yourself a world of hurt".

Do you feel that trip reports of illicit drugs are in any way an endorsement of illicit drug use?

That's not to say I have any problem with drug users or addicts at all. I'm one of them. The fact that I AM one of them is why I would say that to someone, though.

Kind of a “do as I say, not as I do” approach though, isn't it?

Although some drugs have brought me some good things, there has been far more bad than good and that is true with a lot of people.

I'm sorry to hear that. For me, personally, I feel it's the other way around – there has been more good than bad come from drugs so far for me.

Certainly not all, but half the people I know from Bluelight are in the Shrine, as well as a number of IRL friends. And it all started innocently enough.

Still I don't blame drugs. While people's compulsive decisions certainly play into things, and there are some people more prone to compulsion than others, biologically speaking, it's worth addressing the facts that: 1. mental illness does not get the recognition in modern medicine it deserves, 2. many people out there are self-medicating as a result, 3. the lack of regulation that's created by drug prohibition certainly ups the ante in terms of danger, and 4. while meanwhile, just like alcohol prohibition, the net effect of drug prohibition is to exacerbate an existent problem with added legal troubles whilst lining the pockets of transnational criminal organizations who traffick illegal drugs.

The risk is too high for me to ever feel good about recommending someone start using drugs, if they don't already.

Do you think there's anyone out there who has read your trip reports and subsequently felt persuaded to try that drug themselves? I'm not knocking you for writing trip reports – indeed they're well written and informative. I even came across some book someone published that was a compilation of your trip reports, that's how prolific of a trip-report-writer you are, evidently, and you've inspired some people I'm guessing. You really don't think encouraging responsible use is a more reasonable approach? Deeming something forbidden fruit just makes that thing all the more alluring to the wrong kinds of people… Idk, just my proverbial $0.02.

 

[unodelacosa]

It's actually MDMA itself which is converted into alpha methyl dopamine, aka 3,4-dihydroxymethamphetamine, via removal of the methylene bridge on the methylenedioxy ring in the liver, and not a reaction with serotonin. It would be impossible to convert a tryptamine (serotonin) into a phenethylamine (alpha methyl dopamine).

Yeah, I know this, but did you realize that MAO (monoamine oxidase) is the endogenous chemical agent that removes the methylene bridge and/or demethylates the nitrogen moiety? You're not talking to a noob here, brother. I used to manufacture MDMA.

EDIT: I really don't know how you inferred something different there…

EDIT2: Apologies, I see what happened; that was a typo earlier on my part. Good catch.

 

[thegreenhand]

You really don't think that encouraging responsible use is a more reasonable approach?

I would argue the most responsible use would be no use. No risk of overdose, addiction, etc.

Harm reduction, as I understand it, is for encouraging safe use if you were going to do it anyway