Esoteric Why would you need a shaman?

[Fornax55]

Anybody that makes you pay for a experince is scamming you thats the final word. True light healers will fucking do it for free as a service to the world not just the elite and wealthy. fuck the rich people!

This is such an interesting paradox that we find ourselves in.

Any task that is truly selfless and altruistic in nature we believe must be performed for free. Should a shaman, priest, bishop, guru - anyone who wants to help people grow and expand - ask to be compensated for their services, they are immediately written off as a scam and a fraud. If you really want to help people, you'll do it for free.

And yet, who is more deserving of our money? Look what it goes to fund instead: services that should, by necessity, be free. Acquiring food, shelter, transportation, often doled out by corrupt organizations. We see no problem or moral inconsistency in paying for these services, and yet if someone has the audacity to ask for money in exchange for a nonessential service provided for personal/spiritual growth, suddenly they're the devil.

What does this mean, then? That we pay for these services because we know that the providers wouldn't do so willingly? That they're not offered out of the goodness of individual's hearts and thus we must compensate for them?

One question I have failed to see anybody answer and usually results in a conversation change: why is it morally acceptable for a therapist, psychiatrist, or doctor to charge for their services when it's not OK for a shaman, priest, or guru to do the same? They're all essentially different modalities of the same service with the same end result, healing, in mind. To be effective in any of these tasks requires years of education. An untrained shaman or guru is, indeed, useless and fraudulent, but no more so than an untrained doctor offering back alley surgeries in his garage.

I make no statements about my opinion on the matter. Just observing that this is a pretty funny relationship that we have with our money and what we believe to be a 'good' use for it.

 

[JackARoe]

This is such an interesting paradox that we find ourselves in.

I make no statements about my opinion on the matter. Just observing that this is a pretty funny relationship that we have with our money and what we believe to be a 'good' use for it.

That is a good point and I usually spoof on it when someone thinks if someone is so spiritual why don't they do it for free. That is like saying I should work for free and not get a paycheck. I mean if I am so "enlightened" I would not do it for money. I never knew why that is the litmus test for a lot of people. You all try and work for free I mean, if you are so spiritual. lol

When it comes to Shaman though I would need some definate proof that a service was rendered and result was agreed upon. And I do truly believe we can all be Shamans to each other at times. It just so happens that the Shaman bandwagon did produce a lot of con men. But in life we do have con men for just about everything there is. The notion of Shamanism is pure though I believe. Whether I believe I need I or not is irrelevant.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Like all Jobs there are

Anybody that makes you pay for a experince is scamming you thats the final word. True light healers will fucking do it for free as a service to the world not just the elite and wealthy. fuck the rich people!

Talking like a true commie...
Should this also be true for doctors, pt's, massage therapists?

Hey IF you want to help people then get in the bread Line.

Only destructive proffesions should be able to make a living right?
If there are People willing to pay for a service then noone should be able to deny them from offering that service.



With that said, most so called shamans are sketchy af.

I used to get kambo and ayahyasca ceromonies from a lady who is connected to a peruvian tribe.

She is probably doing more Good then harm.
However seing her increase här rate from around 100euro to over double to serve watered down ayahyasca made me feel quite dupped.

She probably did 2-3 sessions per week with at least 5people at a time.
You do the math on the dough she was making.
I dont mind anyone making money if People feel its worth whats they paid.

But i personally felt that paying 10x what some chakruna and caapi costs to barely feel anything was not for me.

Id rather get fully immersed att home without someone colouring My experiences with dogma.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Some people prefer if someone else holds their dicks for them while they piss while others have the wisdom to realize that only the pisser truly knows how to give the perfect shake at the end .....
But seriously, there is so much nonsense and bullshit in the occult world that it's depressing.
You only require a shaman if you believe that you do. Period . End of story.
The overwhelming majority of Magicians, fortune tellers, palm readers, tea leave readers shamans, even apparently extremely experienced "adepts" that I've encountered over the last 2 decades have been so obviously fuelled by their own overgrown egos that it's astonishing.
The entire point of Magick is to control the ego and gain a deep PERSONAL understanding of yourself, the universe and the divine and most have only deluded themselves into believing that they have achieved this.
It's disgusting how stupid and gullible even fairly smart people can become when they gather in groups and when it's in a temple it's far worse....
Too many "masters" have had their egos stroked by the very neophytes that come to them for spiritual training.
Sometimes you may need a guide from an experienced tripper but that's as far as I could ever recommend with taking a esoteric psychedelic journey.
Obviously I'm soured by my experiences in many many occult groups and I strongly feel that the only real way to blaspheme God is to tell another person what their spiritual journey should be.
Be brave and take the plunge on your own or with trusted friends....unless you dislike the money in your bank account and enjoy having a stranger dictate how your personal spiritual journey should proceed.

 

[JackARoe]

Some people prefer if someone else holds their dicks for them while they piss while others have the wisdom to realize that only the pisser truly knows how to give the perfect shake at the end .....

True wisdom. Classic statement. :D

 

[pupnik]

yeah, kinda, but I do not agree that magic is about controlling the ego. more like planning around it, and respecting the nature of habits most specifically, and the habits of nature in general.
The ego is just one tiny bit of nature

 

[Fornax55]

yeah, kinda, but I do not agree that magic is about controlling the ego. more like planning around it, and respecting the nature of habits most specifically, and the habits of nature in general.
The ego is just one tiny bit of nature

Magic is imagination in solidity. Trying to consider this from a rational framework is hard but in my experience it works.

Look at the world. Everything we see existed at some point in someone’s imagination and was thus created physically. “Magic” is learning to control you imagination through techniques (meditation, Jungian active imagination, steady attention) all of which can be vastly improved upon with psychedelics.

A good example is those moments people have on a good trip where everything just works out beyond perfectly, rapid chains of successful moments and unlikely encounters, or you physically encounter something that is so unlikely or be physically impossible that’s you struggle to retell the tale afterwards. Imagination is in hyperdrive and can produce quick results.

I also believe this is partly how ayahuasca works in healing, by addressing trauma. Trauma sets a mental precedent or unhealthy belief. This belief sets our expectations about how things should be and thus we end up perpetually recreating the same cycles. For example my anxiety keeps me holed up in my room because I unconsciously imagine that socializing will result in me making a humiliating blunder and thus I avoid it entirely.

But when I actually put the effort in to employ active imagination - meditate for half an hour beforehand, for example, visualizing and focusing on a situation that would produce in me feelings of comfort, acceptance, and joy - and use that to overwrite the pre-establishes narrative that runs my imagination, it always works.

Ayahuasca also allows us the unique opportunity to observe the scripts running in our subconscious and the results that they produce.

Normally I keep these ideas to myself because a lot of people write them off as woo. In fact I write them off as woo myself a lot of the time, which is why I don’t push myself to do it every day. And yet I know the truth of this practice and have employed it countless times to “magically” produce certain results, eliminate emotion triggers, find things I need on the side of the road, etc

 

[pupnik]

...
But when I actually put the effort in to employ active imagination - meditate for half an hour beforehand, for example, visualizing and focusing on a situation that would produce in me feelings of comfort, acceptance, and joy - and use that to overwrite the pre-establishes narrative that runs my imagination, it always works.
...

You are writing about great magic work here in these lines, but what goes on is not exactly overwriting; it is more like allowing the trauma memory to be what it naturally is, not reacting to it, while counter balancing the traumatic effect using your gentle presence and even-mindedness. basically adding more to the memory, but what is added is all good. (this works best if done regularly - do you have to go out to make yourself meditate? )

memory is not exactly ever really overwritten, but by using your approach, it stops screwing you up so much
Things in memory are very enmeshed, so erasure is not an option but expanding the linkages is a natural process -
by gently meditating, the set of trauma memories becomes connected to the awareness of a gentle presence meditating.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

yeah, kinda, but I do not agree that magic is about controlling the ego. more like planning around it, and respecting the nature of habits most specifically, and the habits of nature in general.
The ego is just one tiny bit of nature

No offence but it is impossible to "plan around something " whithout exerting a degree of control over it even if that level control is a denial of that thing.
You basically disagreed with my point only to actually make the same point with the rest of your statement.

 

[pupnik]

No offence but it is impossible to "plan around something " whithout exerting a degree of control over it even if that level control is a denial of that thing.
You basically disagreed with my point only to actually make the same point with the rest of your statement.

I do not disagree with you - only with the idea of control and when control is possible.
I think we can appear to be in control while doing something that we practice or rehearse since we learn by repetition.
some people call this muscle memory, ok, except muscles have no memory. per se.

if you have a prepared attitude or response complex then you can pretty much count on it kicking in if circumstances trigger it. Is ego other than that?

In real time, you cannot control your responses (ego), if you are lucky you can become more aware of what is happening - so becoming more aware is worth practising. That can provide enough pause to allow the most suitable response (also ego) to kick in.

the reality is all about mind and memory - aka responses.
to plan around that, we have to discover what is worth practising, because that is what will take over (like muscle memory).
the control element is way in advance of any chance to use any skill that needs to be developed by practice.

 

[JGoldStar]

HI I am new to BlueLIght. I have scanned/read the past 4 pages of comments and there were few comments from those who actually worked with a shaman. So I must leave a comment....

I have been to Peru 2 times and done Ayahuasca several times on both journeys. A true shaman who has worked with mother Ayahuasca and understand the plant magic that is created , the ways of use and how to get the best "medicine". My first Ayahuasca trip was by someone who lived in Peru and was himself a spiritual teacher but he was not a Shaman and did not understand. He made the Ayahuasca himself and dispersed it to all of us in the back yard area of their home, we were staying at. Many people became ill instead of having good "trips". He didn't know that eliminating by mouth or back ends can be common and there were no accommodations except the 2 bathrooms in the house that 1) some people were too out of it to get to and 2) quickly became occupied. He himself took some of the medicine and was not really able to help other people. It was not a pleasant experience and most everyone was too sick the next day to go do our planned activities.

He felt bad that it went so badly and arranged to have a true Shaman come give us the medicine next time. So 3 days later we traveled to a jungle place and met a Shaman and his helpers (because we had a group of 15 - you need conscious helpers with that many people). He was only in his 40's but his family has brewed ayahuasca for generations. They had a small plot of land in the jungle where we set up little 2 man tents to sleep in - if we felt like sleeping. He explained the process of seeking knowledge and healing offered by mother Ayahuasca and prepared us for the journey. We fasted the majority of the day drinking a lot of water and taking a fun/easy activities in the afternoon and in the early evening we were quiet and meditated and wrote in our journals before we started. We came with a sacred understanding and each held an intention for our "medicine trip" as our shaman had instructed. It was an amazing and beautiful night with many visions as I sat by the fire. The Shaman (and his helpers) made regular round checking on each of us. Some made it on their own back to their tents, some were helped. I spent the night by the fire sleeping on the ground and someone brought me a blanket. The next morning we all felt really good and traveled to Machu Picchu and he taught us more of the true history of Peru and its people. We chewed coca leaves and learned so much. The thing was no was was sick or having a bad reaction from the ayahuasca.

ONE THING NO ONE THINKS ABOUT IS SETTING UP A SAFE PLACE. When we open our energetic fields with some of these drugs we invite energetic beings that we may not be aware of in our 3D realm/dimension/reality - but are real - to attack or take advantage of us, energetically, spiritually and mentally. Sometimes this is what causes bad trips on every kind of drug. One thing a true shaman does is clear the area of bad/energic beings and holds a spiritually/energetically SAFE PLACE while we are tripping out of our minds.

A year later I went back and did it again. With the same Peruvian friend and the same Shaman. It was a different group. We did Ayahuasca 2 times that trip as well but both times in the jungle with the Shaman. Ayahuasca has a different affect on me - it was very gentle and I sat up drumming and singing to myself and talking to the shaman all night. The next day I felt great even though I had not slept and decided to leave the group and climb to the top of Machu Picchu. I had plenty of energy and stamina and spent hours up top meditating. Then we did it again that night and again I stayed up almost the whole night. Finally sleeping after about 3 am for a few hours. We were up leaving camp by 8 am. I felt amazing.

You would not go to a doctor and say "if you believe in healing people you would do it for free"
You don't go to Wal-Mart and say "if you believe in low prices everything would be free- or there would be no mark-up"
So why do we expect spiritual people to serve for "free". The shaman I worked with worked with each of our group with 2 helpers for 24-48 hours. I'm not going to talk cost because this was 2002-2004. But we paid by the person for their time and experience and help and I am ever so grateful for them.

Mother ayahuasca when done in ceremony is beautiful and expanding. I totally understand the need just to get high. I have recently ordered a bunch of acacia confusa root to try to get some more of this experience. I am out of work, but I don't want to do it any more. I want to find my true purpose and meaning for my life and I know if I could have another ayahuasca journey I would find the answers I am searching for.

But honestly if you are just looking to get high - yeah you don't need a shaman.

Blessings and Love that you find what you are looking for!!

 

[Hexagon Sun]

Happy to see people normalizing talking about energies and dimensions.

To me ayahuasca is clearly a 5th density entity. The pletora of machine elves, probably 4D or astral. You find a lot of high and low astral kind of entities out there. Some negative/demonics as well, but in my experience, they can not breakthrough your aura-our natural protection- unless you allow it

I would love to map, scientifically, all this. To get a solid and rigurous understanding of all the multidimensional dynamics... And sure, a true chaman could teach a lot of this from it´s experience

 

[pupnik]

oof, this would be the map of trails and layered feelings, and basically that is where ever you have been - especially recently.
inner body sensations are too much ignored until you get slowed down and phlanged.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

ayahuasca is another chemical drug its dmt + maois aint no enities aint nothing outside of yourself. No energy nothing. at the end of the day all is does is bring you into contact with your self. Aint no fucking demons aint no fucking angels. Its all one.,

 

[MydriHaze]

Its all one.,

So why the code with the "," and the ".", didn't you wanted to post : ".." either? What restrained you?

Ow sorry, just a typing fault i guess... No shaman involved.:.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

ayahuasca is another chemical drug its dmt + maois aint no enities aint nothing outside of yourself. No energy nothing. at the end of the day all is does is bring you into contact with your self. Aint no fucking demons aint no fucking angels. Its all one.,

This is like having the discussion on god.
Noone can prove he exist or doesnt.

Just like you have no clue if what happens on ayahyasca is delusions or spirits talking to you.
So its up to everyone to make their own interpetation of their experience.

 

[The Shadow Self]

No one is coming to save you. But the good news is that you can save yourself. If you are still looking for answers for yourself, outside yourself, you are barking up the wrong tree. While an over-simplification, it is true in my opinion. Consulting with people who may provide something of value to you is one thing, but pretending someone else has the answers to the puzzle of your life because of some perceived label such as "shaman" or "guru" is just chasing shadows, in my opinion. I do not trust anyone outside of myself more than I trust my own self, and there is nothing that it will ever change that. If we are going to be truly accountable for ourselves, I see no other way. But again, that is just, like, my opinion, man...

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

You would need the shamen to move any mountain.

Of course...

 

[RDP89]

You don’t need a shaman. Worthless spiritual mumbo jumbo nonsense.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

This is not fiction, but a 2 mins documental about astral dynamics condensed and embebbed as a superheroes scene