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Esoteric Why would you need a shaman?

Since early childhood I worked with spirits and had experiences involving "entering the spirit world" and being taught and doing work there.

Having personal experiences working with spirits, I can vouch for genuine shamans being able to get things done. Thing is though, almost everybody paid for shamanic duties for ayahuasca is not a genuine shaman but an opportunist rising to the occasion.

No such thing as a "good shaman"

Yeah, whatever. Crooks! Every last one of them!

What I said was:

If you want specific things done in a session involving spirits, you usually need a spiritworker.

That doesn't mean I endorse the whole tourist drug shaman resort BS.

In order to work with spirits, you need to believe in spirits, sense them, successfully interact with them and have cred in the spirit world.

You need a spiritworker to work with spirits, unless of course you yourself are one.

You can become one, but it starts with taking the notion of spirits and spirit interactions completely seriously.

Thats a bridge too far for most people, thats not even the same river.
 
There was a huichol shaman I used to see who blew my mind in certain ways (I mean witnessing telekinesis and seeing a man manipulate matter in front of my eyes really leaves an impression, i don't put it past them to use some kind of invisible string, in one of the scenarios), though we never spoke. Anyway, at least with peyote the shaman is there to sing and pray, not really guide the experience per say
 
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Viraldrome said:
No such thing as a "good shaman". They are all crooks, you never learn do you? Its like there is sign over your head saying "scam me".
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WS Burroughs wandered south america for years looking for ayahusca and had to go the middle of nowhere to find a single tribe that used it. Now there are shamans everywhere down there. They became shamans to meet demand. Its not authentic and paying thousands of dollars to do something you could do at home for cheap is foolish. Its like going to Haiti to see voodoo rituals, they are doing it for the tourists.

Its fine to get into this shit for the mystical experience but don't get scammed into thinking you participated in some ancient ritual because you paid a native a thousand dollars to put on a show. The Peyote church can at least make a claim to actual lineage, but 5-meo-dmt "shamans" were a recent invention with no history all.
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The Ayahuasca/yagé Burroughs took was either fake, or very weak as the effects were either mild or imagined/placebo effect, and not really like when people today take larger doses of Ayahuasca.
 
schizoinfective said:
There was a huichol shaman I used to see who blew my mind in certain ways (I mean witnessing telekinesis and seeing a man manipulate matter in front of my eyes really leaves an impression, i don't put it past them to use some kind of invisible string, in one of the scenarios), though we never spoke. Anyway, at least with peyote the shaman is there to sing and pray, not really guide the experience per say
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Are you from Mexico City? What did he do besides apparently move things, or so it looked while you were tripping? I remember being on LSD seeing trees move, and things turn into crystals and melt, and the classic fractals and walls breathing on acid.
 
Asante said:
Since early childhood I worked with spirits and had experiences involving "entering the spirit world" and being taught and doing work there.

Having personal experiences working with spirits, I can vouch for genuine shamans being able to get things done. Thing is though, almost everybody paid for shamanic duties for ayahuasca is not a genuine shaman but an opportunist rising to the occasion.

No such thing as a "good shaman"

Yeah, whatever. Crooks! Every last one of them!

What I said was:

If you want specific things done in a session involving spirits, you usually need a spiritworker.

That doesn't mean I endorse the whole tourist drug shaman resort BS.

In order to work with spirits, you need to believe in spirits, sense them, successfully interact with them and have cred in the spirit world.

You need a spiritworker to work with spirits, unless of course you yourself are one.

You can become one, but it starts with taking the notion of spirits and spirit interactions completely seriously.

Thats a bridge too far for most people, thats not even the same river.
Click to expand...
So what is the spirit world like? Is this astral projection, out of body experiences or lucid dreaming? How did you get cred in the spirit world if you were new to it? What sort of work is done in the spirit world?
 
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PriestTheyCalledHim said:
Are you from Mexico City? What did he do besides apparently move things, or so it looked while you were tripping? I remember being on LSD seeing trees move, and things turn into crystals and melt, and the classic fractals and walls breathing on acid.
Click to expand...
He knocked a necklace off my neck, and took off the paint from it revealing something that had been burned into it, he collapsed logs and put out a fire with his hand..
 
schizoinfective said:
He knocked a necklace off my neck, and took off the paint from it revealing something that had been burned into it, he collapsed logs and put out a fire with his hand..
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Ok the necklace event is crazy, or how he burned or engraved something in it or revealed something burned or engraved that was covered up with paint. How big were the logs and fire?
 
Learning a little sleight of hand goes a long way with necklaces etc - remember ram dass "i watched really closely the second time he put 900mics on his tongue. ". Watching really closely is classic misdirection.

Apparantly indian "holyman" babaji was good at making watches disappear.
 
PriestTheyCalledHim said:
So what is the spirit world like? Is this astral projection, out of body experiences or lucid dreaming? How did you get cred in the spirit world if you were new to it? What sort of work is done in the spirit world?
Click to expand...

I take this as genuine inquiry.

Its not astral projection or OBE or lucid dreaming.

Basically what you do, at least what works for me, it sitting or lying down comfortably and getting in a meditative mood, eyes closed, no music. From the platform of having reached within, your mind at inner ease, you start augmenting your reception of sensory input.

What you do is listen very hard when there is nothing to hear and seeing very vividly with closed eyes. So to say, dial up the microphone's sensitivity. For me it works best with hearing.

When you do this, trying your utmost best to hear beyond hearing etc, you are, just like with sensory deprivation tanks and dissociatives, creating a surplus in sensory receptive bandwidth and therefore, an information vacuum.

There is more capacity to hear/see than there are things to hear and see. This presents a problem for your brain, which it solves by filling the void with Meaning. This is standard fare for sensory deprivation tanks and dissociatives, but you do something more.

In this rift between the worlds that you created you start calling out to your allied spirits, and they will answer you and if you have such contracts with them, will pull you into the spirit world as an active participant.

A very good spirit to contact first is that of your heart. Each subdivision of everything has a spirit assigned to it that comprises it, and you can reason with them. The heart is a great place to start as your primary ally because of its devotion to your continued existence and the fact that it is internal, not external, so harder for an imposter to get inbetween. Your subconscious is another great one.

How you get cred in the spirit world?

DO THINGS FOR SPIRITS.

After establishing you both come in peace, your first question should be: "What can I do or you?"

The Universe works with honest weights and measures.

If you do a spirit a favor, they are in debt with you, and vice versa.

The spirits ABHOR!!! the human "slash and burn" mentality of exploiting the crap out of everything. Its why many spirits steer clear of humans. Show that you are not about that, that you come to give and receive in proper measure, and give first.

By the fruits you will know the tree. Benevolent spirits ask small, easy favors and offer trifles in return, and gradually over years both of you build it up.

Some things they ask may even be utterly absurd and of no apparent utility - the purpose then is to see whether you are willing to oblige an absurd request.

Sinister spirits will ask for things you just know aren't right, such as cut an obituary out of the newspaper, drip a drop of your blood on it and burn it. You know it when you see it. When it feels wrong, don't!

You build up cred with spirits. Spirits inform friends that they found a liaison in the physical world willing to transact and contract, this will lead to increasing activity around you.

Your reality bubble changes. Miraculous activity exists throughout, but it becomes increasingly consciously possible around you. The laws of physics become more negotiable, as reality itself is a spirit which can be cooperatively accomodating.

Its a beautiful adventure.

You don't NEED drugs, because you can induce an information vacuum sober without any purchases of powders or gear, but everything that induces an information vacuum (serotonin-psychedelics like LSD, glutamate/GABA-dissociatives like ketamine or propofol, choline-deliriants like datura, kappa opioids like salvia) can be used as a springboard to from there on out, contact the spirits.

Its best that you also learn how to do it sober, so that you can do it at the drop of a hat, in the back of the bus. You can't get high as often as you'd want to enter the Spirit World.

But auditively, picture this:

You listen to the sounds behind the sounds, you listen HARD. Then typically tinnitus starts appearing, then if you persist through that the tinnitus becomes meaningful communication, and then, you're there.

You can have 1000 trips on 1000 micrograms, but unless you start working with the spirits, it stays just tripping.

Running shoes do not make you run a marathon: Its what you do wth them that counts.
 
Real shamans are rare, which is why there are so many fakes. You don't need one but if you can have one it makes for a pretty awesome and deeply integrating experience... but you also have to get along on a personality level, otherwise it could be a nightmare.

Case and point, I went to 1 ayahuasaca ceremony with a shaman and like 15 white people. It was a nightmare. The shaman just gave me what dose he thought I should have rather than what I knew my body could tolerate. His assistant was some whitey who counseled people during the trip and she said all kinds of fucked up, unqualified shit to me. The "shaman" who was supposedly spouting ancient wisdom from his lineage was mostly a machismo latin American with a lot of Catholic influence that he wasn't recognizing. The whole thing traumatized me.

I've since done ayahuasca on my own and it was 10x better. I did microdosing for a long time before I worked up to something bigger.

My psychedelic days are behind me now, but... I think shamanism is mostly show business now.
 
Ismene2 said:
Learning a little sleight of hand goes a long way with necklaces etc - remember ram dass "i watched really closely the second time he put 900mics on his tongue. ". Watching really closely is classic misdirection.

Apparantly indian "holyman" babaji was good at making watches disappear.
Click to expand...
Yeah, thing is my back was against a solid object, no one was next to me, and no one touched me. He passed a feather a foot or two over my head to knock it off
 
Asante said:
I take this as genuine inquiry.

Its not astral projection or OBE or lucid dreaming.

Basically what you do, at least what works for me, it sitting or lying down comfortably and getting in a meditative mood, eyes closed, no music. From the platform of having reached within, your mind at inner ease, you start augmenting your reception of sensory input.

What you do is listen very hard when there is nothing to hear and seeing very vividly with closed eyes. So to say, dial up the microphone's sensitivity. For me it works best with hearing.

When you do this, trying your utmost best to hear beyond hearing etc, you are, just like with sensory deprivation tanks and dissociatives, creating a surplus in sensory receptive bandwidth and therefore, an information vacuum.

There is more capacity to hear/see than there are things to hear and see. This presents a problem for your brain, which it solves by filling the void with Meaning. This is standard fare for sensory deprivation tanks and dissociatives, but you do something more.
.....
.....
.....

You listen to the sounds behind the sounds, you listen HARD. Then typically tinnitus starts appearing, then if you persist through that the tinnitus becomes meaningful communication, and then, you're there.

You can have 1000 trips on 1000 micrograms, but unless you start working with the spirits, it stays just tripping.

Running shoes do not make you run a marathon: Its what you do wth them that counts.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your honesty about your path here.
I agree wholeheartedly with the beginning and the end.
that is significant.

What you are doing in the middle, to me, is potentially very messy business but also somewhat consistent with basic animism not including deal making which is not basic at all.

Contracting with spirits sounds nuts to me, but if your heart is in the right place your words can be all over the place.

meantime this may be connected to the general interest in spirits https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...-speak-with-the-dead?utm_source=pocket-newtab
 
Western psychedelic culture has long been fascinated with, and even obsessed by, the way that indigenous people have used psychedelics, but it's no wonder why. That interest started back when psychedelics were new to the western world. They are powerful tools and even moreso than they are now, they were seen by most people as spiritual tools. Since cultures were using them for hundreds or thousands of years before we ever knew they existed, it makes sense that the psychedelic pioneers would have been interested to learn from people who have incorporated psychedelics into their peoples' spiritual and daily lives.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, "shamanism" has too often become part of the "recovery industry", and is used to extort money from vulnerable people. That doesn't mean that all shamanic practices are bad or predatory, however. It just means that one should be very careful and skeptical.

Personally, I'd be interested in being a part of an indigenous ceremony, but only if it was some sort of situation that came about organically... perhaps I made friends with someone from that culture and they invited me to partake with them, or something. Paying someone to do it seems likely to result in a waste of money, at best. And as far as western "shamans", I'd never do that, though I'm sure there are people who are trying to do something good and even perhaps DO help people. But I'm experienced, I don't need a guide. The reason I'd participate in an indigenous ceremony under the right circumstances is because I am curious about other cultures and I'd be fascinated to see the ways in which other people utilize these tools, particularly when it comes from a long line of practitioners and tradition. I think it could be an enriching experience.

That said, I am experienced, but many people are not. I do think that having a guide through such a powerful experience, especially if you are inexperienced and in a bad place and seeking healing, can lead to substantially better outcomes, provided you don't find someone who is a predator or otherwise harmful. In fact that is the idea behind psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. You have an experienced guide who can help to direct your experience towards something positive and meaningful, and help you to get past difficult or traumatic moments. See the number of threads we have in PD over the years from people who took some psychedelics with their friends or by themselves and had no one to tell them that the scary stuff they experienced was normal and okay, and post about how they're damaged and have never been the same since, for evidence of how useful having a guide can be. Studies show that when properly guided and set and setting properly controlled, positive outcomes are exceedingly more likely than negative ones.
 
Foreigner said:
Real shamans are rare, which is why there are so many fakes. You don't need one but if you can have one it makes for a pretty awesome and deeply integrating experience... but you also have to get along on a personality level, otherwise it could be a nightmare.

Case and point, I went to 1 ayahuasaca ceremony with a shaman and like 15 white people. It was a nightmare. The shaman just gave me what dose he thought I should have rather than what I knew my body could tolerate. His assistant was some whitey who counseled people during the trip and she said all kinds of fucked up, unqualified shit to me. The "shaman" who was supposedly spouting ancient wisdom from his lineage was mostly a machismo latin American with a lot of Catholic influence that he wasn't recognizing. The whole thing traumatized me.

I've since done ayahuasca on my own and it was 10x better. I did microdosing for a long time before I worked up to something bigger.

My psychedelic days are behind me now, but... I think shamanism is mostly show business now.
Click to expand...
Why were you traumatized yet again?

Roman Catholcism is not about machismo but is about the feminine. Mary is held in very high regard, for the skirt he wears the pope might as well be a drag queen or is the hyper-effeminate type HAIL MARY!

There are lots of women saints who are worshipped, and even female flowers are celebrated with the rosary!
 
pupnik said:
I appreciate your honesty about your path here.
I agree wholeheartedly with the beginning and the end.
that is significant.

What you are doing in the middle, to me, is potentially very messy business but also somewhat consistent with basic animism not including deal making which is not basic at all.

Contracting with spirits sounds nuts to me, but if your heart is in the right place your words can be all over the place.

meantime this may be connected to the general interest in spirits https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...-speak-with-the-dead?utm_source=pocket-newtab
Click to expand...
thanks for the link. I have dead relatives and friends show up in dreams so what does this mean?
 
Were the indigenous ceremonies anything that trippers would enjoy today? The main thing maria sabina held shroom ceremonies for was health problems in the village - you would go to her and say "im carrying an unstable load, please ask the spirits how i can make it all the way to cockfosters..."

Then the "shroom spirit" would suggest something like "recite the name of your football teams players backwards to yourself during intercourse".

I dont think it was a bunch of hippies acting like we would today - searching for the answer..
 
PriestTheyCalledHim, you asked questions, got very elaborate answers, no reply?
 
Ismene2 said:
Were the indigenous ceremonies anything that trippers would enjoy today?
Click to expand...
I took part in some Ayahuasca drinking with Shipibo healers present. Was very enjoyable listening to their songs and singing for hours whilst your tripping and when the man and/or woman sing to you personally it will conjure up feelings that wouldn't have necessarily arisen when tripping alone at home, possibly relating to family members of either gender etc

The worst part is honestly the other people in the ceremony who can't handle their psychedelics and start screaming/reliving whatever trauma they've been trying to suppress.

So, no, nobody NEEDS a shaman, but they can be nice to have around :)

I don't believe they have any special powers or whatever - they're just very, very cool trip sitters (when they're not charlatans trying to sexually harass vulnerable tourists yadda yadda etc etc).
 
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