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Esoteric Why would you need a shaman?

It would be pretty shit having people try psychedelics for the first time and it been ayahuasca lol fuck man i wonder how many people they just get so sick of their screaming they just kill them and bury them and no 1 bats a eye out in the jungle.
 
I do kind of repeat myself and i apologize but all I have to do is look at history to make determinations. LSD got unleashed onto the public and did not come with a shaman. And yes we had casualties but it is clear to me that the way it unfolded was the best possible way. I am not sure we would have had the changes in consicousness (and music lol) in the 60's if LSD had not been available to everyone. One idea that reall irks me is the notion that only certain people should take it like people in an elite society. But then who gets to point the finger and say who gets it and who does not? Who stands on that high ground? That is dangerous thinking to me. So Nature let it be unleashed to the masses and we got what we got. I think the Grateful Dead was one of the better emerges.:D Wow did all music change. It started in Jazz and then LSD came along in perfect time to continue the changes. LSD and Ayahuasca to me are similar tools. But I think it took LSD to make the changes in society simply because it was so easily transfered to people.

The history of the uses and the shamans are very interesting. I do like reading about it. But for most tripping with friends or even alone brought out insights within us to better ourselves without a shaman. That internal guidance is most important. I trust myself more than any shaman. And I really do think all of us are guru's and shamans everday in out lives. We all try and help each other so no need to pay someone from a different continent. I am willing to bet even true shamans of the past were trying to talk themselves out of a job telling people they can do it themselves.
 
Also worth noting, true shamans of the past would be the only person consuming the Ayahuasca, whoever was suffering from whatever ailment would just be present and not imbibe also.
 
^ That is such an important point in the context of all of this. The Shaman takes the psychedelic to heal someone who does not. That is one of my understandings of shamanism. So going to a different country to take a psychedelic is not the tradition as it was. And it is this notion that makes me think that all of us that trip are healers in some fashion. I mean even this thread has healing power.
 
I do kind of repeat myself and i apologize but all I have to do is look at history to make determinations. LSD got unleashed onto the public and did not come with a shaman. And yes we had casualties but it is clear to me that the way it unfolded was the best possible way. I am not sure we would have had the changes in consicousness (and music lol) in the 60's if LSD had not been available to everyone. One idea that reall irks me is the notion that only certain people should take it like people in an elite society. But then who gets to point the finger and say who gets it and who does not? Who stands on that high ground? That is dangerous thinking to me. So Nature let it be unleashed to the masses and we got what we got. I think the Grateful Dead was one of the better emerges.:D Wow did all music change. It started in Jazz and then LSD came along in perfect time to continue the changes. LSD and Ayahuasca to me are similar tools. But I think it took LSD to make the changes in society simply because it was so easily transfered to people.

The history of the uses and the shamans are very interesting. I do like reading about it. But for most tripping with friends or even alone brought out insights within us to better ourselves without a shaman. That internal guidance is most important. I trust myself more than any shaman. And I really do think all of us are guru's and shamans everday in out lives. We all try and help each other so no need to pay someone from a different continent. I am willing to bet even true shamans of the past were trying to talk themselves out of a job telling people they can do it themselves.
I have been very excited about my discoveries of salvia and lsd analogues and watersoluble THC drops etc. all since the web was established, as well previously in the late '60's when I tried LSD.

each time the discovery was ecstatic and proselytic - I mean, each time I wanted to tell everyone I knew at every dinner party etc. how great it was for me...

I blew it a few times at the table with some judges, professors, lawyers and psychiatrists where I was the odd man - an artist - a tech business person - a software developer - and generally a well behaved creative FREAK!. I could see that all they could imagine was how to protect their daughters from people like me.

but if these groups of friends were more amenable to trying something new instead of being post professional conservative liberal intellectuals, then yeah the old way of exciting news about feeding your head would work best.

Some of these people, however, could be in for a holiday trip - something under the umbrella of a travel agency - a guided tour - and their children perhaps are the core market for amazonian or jungle mountain love boat experiences.

actually it sounds ideal to me too, but there really cannot be any money back, personality back, guarantee, insurance package to go along with the commodity of psychedelitours.
 
Good analogy. Really, these days most people in the "shaman" role are really playing the "guide" role, to try to help steer someone in the right direction on their trip. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is the idea behind psychedelic assisted psychotherapy and the data clearly shows what a benefit it can be, if done right. Some people can work through a trip and come out the other side stronger on their own, but many people are not as equipped to do that. Especially people taking something to try to confront something painful and heal. Having a guide to be there with them help talk them through, help to remember they'll come down... basically a trip sitter who also tries to influence the direction of the trip. This can make the difference between a traumatic experience that leaves scars (like so many have reported in threads in PD over the years), and an experience that may be difficult, but is ult9mately rewarding and leads to personal growth. A good guide can greatly increase the chance of the trip turning out positively.

I think we need to take the "shaman"/mystical element out of it a little, as we (most of us) are not indigenous people and that sort of thing is not part of our world. And it is not necessary, these tools are for everyone and everyone should have access to them and access to help with them, if they want or need it. That is how we can use psychedelics to actually help people and help society.

Like Ismene's "are aliens ruining DMT" thread... I think trying too hard to associate psychedelic rituals with indigenous practices has sort of ruined, or muddied at least, the discussion about using psychedelics as healing tools.
 
Also worth noting, true shamans of the past would be the only person consuming the Ayahuasca, whoever was suffering from whatever ailment would just be present and not imbibe also.

That was a bit disturbing when maria sabina took mushrooms cos a mother asked if her disabled son was going to live - so maria took shrooms (the mother and kid didnt) and then said the kid will die - the mother and kid broke out sobbing
 
I would never advise someone to call upon a shaman...because it is entrusting one's power to a stranger and this in an altered and malleable state! Very dangerous...especially as what is a "real shaman" or someone qualified? There is no little starred guide that references the best practitioners...and let's not delude ourselves, shamanism is a business like any other in the 21st century. Between the Peruvian tour operators specialised in this niche, the "big centres" in the jungle that charge a fortune per week or the religious or new age syncretisms that work in Europe in more open countries (Netherlands, etc.), all have a mercantile approach.

This is the kind of terrible thing that can happen :

 
That was a bit disturbing when maria sabina took mushrooms cos a mother asked if her disabled son was going to live - so maria took shrooms (the mother and kid didnt) and then said the kid will die - the mother and kid broke out sobbing
So did her disabled son die from whatever disability he had? Or not?
 
I would never advise someone to call upon a shaman...because it is entrusting one's power to a stranger and this in an altered and malleable state! Very dangerous...especially as what is a "real shaman" or someone qualified? There is no little starred guide that references the best practitioners...and let's not delude ourselves, shamanism is a business like any other in the 21st century. Between the Peruvian tour operators specialised in this niche, the "big centres" in the jungle that charge a fortune per week or the religious or new age syncretisms that work in Europe in more open countries (Netherlands, etc.), all have a mercantile approach.

This is the kind of terrible thing that can happen :

I usually do not write about this at all, but I was friends with an actual Peruvian shaman that had conducted ceremonies with Ayahuasca, San Pedro cactus, Psilocybin mushrooms, etc. and it was not done transactionally or exchanging money, etc. He said how Ayahuasca is not for most people, not to be taken lightly or recreationally the way people do with marijuana/hashish, LSD, or mushrooms and how if you take Ayahuasca without a guide or alone, or with the wrong people like that French guy did in the trip report that you do run the risk of going mad or insane.

He also told me how the natives in Peru hated and loathed the McKennas, Ayahuasca tourism, people that abuse Ayahuasca the way the McKennas did, etc.

My friend had never taken LSD but during an Ayahuasca ceremony in Peru during the years we were not in contact-This was decades before smart mobile phones the internet everywhere as we now know it etc. he learned that at the time I had LSD-this was decades ago it is all gone I ate the acid and no longer use any drugs at all and am in recovery-and he wanted me to introduce him to LSD, but sadly this did not happen as he became very sick and died. Rest in peace DMZ.
 
I think that the question is kind of invalid because it shows that there’s a clear lack of distinction between what constitutes a shaman and a conman. They are not one and the same. Certainly the majority of people professing to be shamans are conmen, but that right there is a clear indicator that you’re not working with an actual shaman.

Real shamen are healers who study natural law and its cycles and understand how these cyclic patterns apply to the human psyche. They are skilled in de-escalation and highly empathic, individuals who have significant experience with plant medicine and the necessary tools and skills to direct experiences in a positive way if necessary. They don’t have any special skills aside from those that we struggle to comprehend due to our present lifestyle and environment.

Are they necessary? No. I’m certain I could go through an ayahuasca ceremony on my own. But I don’t want to. The shaman is part of the experience. The songs sung during ceremony are the same songs that have been sung for millennia during similar experiences. Call me a kook but I know that alone would propel me to a higher level, ayahuasca or not. Taking part in a ceremony with music and a psychoactive compound that has been used ritualistically tens of thousands of times over thousands of years would add another layer of depth to the experience for sure.
The only problem is that I’ve been searching ten years and have only found a couple of suitable candidates who aren’t obvious money grabs, and one of them I only met the day before leaving Costa Rica. :/
 
That’s my whole argument about these so-called “shamans”. The only way I would feel even a little bit comfortable is if they were from an actual tribe in South America that had generations of history doing these kinds of ceremonies. Other than that, they are conmen.

🧙‍♂️
I hear you, although I don't necessarily think they're all conmen.

I never thought I could really commit myself to paying for a ceremony done up in Canada but I also realized that if people are doing this sort of work for a living, they still have to eat. I'd say offering therapeutic ceremony is a perfectly valid line of work, just as much as a therapist. The main difference being is that these people are subjecting themselves to 72+ hours of intensive, round-the-clock and highly unpredictable experiences with their clients during active trauma resolution.
72 hours of paid work at $10 an hour, which is far below minimum wage here, would only be $720. Retreats usually start at around $900, so that actually seems fair.

Granted it's still impossible to tell how 'authentic' a shaman is, or what that even really means. I've come into contact with a fellow and his wife. He does not identify as a shaman but as an ayahuasquero, which I believe would be the proper term for someone who has been properly trained to administer ayahuasca ceremonies. The guy himself is from South America, his wife is Canadian. Their ceremonies seem very healing (the one I'm looking at now is actually bringing in a somatic therapist who works with addressing childhood trauma that can lead to addiction to help people clarify their intentions, set goals, and prepare the resolution process prior to the actual ceremony).

The price is $800. My first thought was, "fuck y'all, if you take ten clients then you're making $8,000 in a weekend." But then I remember that's kind of just how things work in our society. If someone hosts a seminar and charges 20 bucks a pop and 600 people show up, they're making $1,200 in an hour. People need to eat. If these people are offering intense psychedelic ceremonies on weekends then chances are they're not going to be able to just bounce back to a 9-5 office job the day after. It sort of becomes a lifestyle and they still need to pay for their homes, foods, retreat spaces, communications, transport, the medicine itself, and other such life expenses.

We seem to have this weird predisposition as a society that any services that are inherently 'good,' such as speaking at church, helping the homeless, administering ceremonies, should also be 'free.' I think this has to do with cognitive dissonance created by the idea that most of us have that 'money is the root of all evil.' Thus it's very hard to wrap the mind around the concept of someone performing a 'good' service and receiving 'evil' compensation for it.

And yet where do our tax dollars go? To fund multinational corporations that feed off the working class? To equip a corrupt police force to violently oppress minorities? To wreak havoc in the natural environment? Nobody bats an eye to that aside from the occasional grumbling about "those fuckers are spending MY tax money on THIS?" But mention that someone's charging for an ayahuasca ceremony and all hell will break loose.

But again this all goes back to the beginning: the reality is that a lot of these professed shamans are just psychonauts who went to South America, got high on a bunch of ayahuasca and decided to come home and cash in on it.

These are just thoughts that came to me this morning.
 
I think if you have Icaros on an album
It will work weLL, but I’m a big supporter of drinking Medicine with shamans as I do love heartfelt healing songs sung to me in the moment.

you can get there with a playlist but entheogenic ceremonies have birthed some
Of the wildest jams I’ve ever been a part of,
It’s a whole other thang
 
Anybody that makes you pay for a experince is scamming you thats the final word. True light healers will fucking do it for free as a service to the world not just the elite and wealthy. fuck the rich people!
 
yeah i cant imagine going through a total stranger to take a psychedelic with ! i get anxiety just thinking about it.

I would prefer to be with a few friends, although as i have grown away from most and lots have responsibilities nowadays i guess having someone you can experience this drug under their "guidance" i can relate to why some people want to do this.

Psychedelic use is really personal to me, the experience is always tainted in some way when i am with someone else. Not to say its a bad idea but i imagine it to factor into your trip and could end a worse experience than in a setting where you feel totally calm and no anxiety
 
although;

sometimes you are in the mood for a roller-coaster or a magic show, and you can get tickets for those, why not this.

support the actors guilds and those who make fun toys too
 
you need a shaman so you have a source of urine to drink.

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please remember kiddies its all in your head.
 
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